Hew Mcleod Documentary (part 1)

[Only five]

Mithar ji

Bottomm line is Mcleod was histrorian . He made mistakes and he was criticized for that. He admiited many of those mistakes himself.

But he did not comment on basic faith system of sikhs. That s where the difference lies. If you say he had an agenda, where is that agenda.

But to me there is no agenda. let us let him rest in peace.

Mcleod's agenda was simple, to put doubts in Sikhs minds about SIkhi. He questioned and then said Dam Dami Taksal Bir that Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji gave Guruship to was not authnetic. Then he calls Guru Nanak Dev ji a Hindu and Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism. This backless man was out to put confusion and doubts about Sikhi.

[dalsingh101]

Mcleod's agenda was simple, to put doubts in Sikhs minds about SIkhi. He questioned and then said Dam Dami Taksal Bir that Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji gave Guruship to was not authnetic. Then he calls Guru Nanak Dev ji a Hindu and Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism. This backless man was out to put confusion and doubts about Sikhi.

There was another aspect to his agenda. He also attempted to belittle the Sikh religion in the eyes of westerners. This is part of the classic white supremacist/colonial agenda that attempts to deride other cultures with the ultimate aim of either subjugating them in some form or reducing empathy for these "others" from within the western world. The ultimate conclusion an unwitting outsider would draw from reading McLeod's work is that the Sikhs are largely ignorant of their own history and have falsely manufactured large sections of it. So, for example, McLeod has attacked the independent identity of Sikhs starting with Guru Nanak message, 5 ks, caste equality concepts and Singh Sabha reforms amongst others. Through his chumchay he has attacked the concept female equality (Jacobs), Sikh shaheeds (Fennech) and Adi Granth (Pashaura).

What such people really hate is other communities having strong, self confident histories of themselves. supremacists know that such things are dangerous to their own perceived supremacy. Hence they attack the foundation of that. At the same time, these peoples own account of their own history is very patchy and seeks to play down their own corporate misdeeds such as slavery, colonial executions, international drug trading etc. etc. In the narrative they produce, they are the enlightened one and the "others" backward, savage, ignorant and unable to truthfully/correctly define themselves. As an example whilst Maharajah Ranjit Singh is a debautched womeniser in their narratives, they play down the psychotic nature of their own royalty such as King Henry, who famously has numerous wives beheaded for trivial reasons.

Whereas other communities have twigged onto such subtle attacks, Sikhs are slow, mainly because McLeod used backhanded compliments which are lapped up by some egotistical Sikhs. He does this whilst continuing to question all of their cultural/religious foundations and that with a very haughty attitude to other Sikhs who question him. His work is taken to new depths by many of the people that end up completing doctorates under his tutelage.

Edited July 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Fascinating documentary for the conscious brothers and sisters out there. Puts a lot western "histiography" in context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCOSkXR_Cw

[Mithar]

So true Dal Singh Jee. Sometimes I think that Muslims are so lucky. They have (in my opinion) the most violent faith, history full of bloodshed, slavery which is probably only outmatched by the history of the Mongols. Yet western academics have completed white washed the incriminating chapters of Islamic history and now portray it as a history of enlightenment, heroism, open-mindedness (you know, all the good stuff). Muslims are so lucky. Buddhism is also blessed by historians who show Buddhism in good light.

Yet we have these orientalist Angrez Sahabs who still will not quit distorting Sikh history. In general, Indian history written by these western academics is a very distorted version of history. Swami Rama writes about this with resentment. Sikhs in India and the west need to restart their campaign against these Mcleodians. We need genuine historians who can do justice to Sikhi and be recognised as historians of Sikhism. We need Sikh centric historians as opposed to Euro centric historians on Sikhism.

[HSD1]

dalsingh, i'm glad you realised what these people are like, but try not to make out maharaja ranjit singh was a shining light like some of our lame-excuse-for-historians do. its time sikhs learnt to stop following petty leaders or non-sikh "intellectuals" and forged our own path in this world.

[Mithar]

Fascinating documentary for the conscious brothers and sisters out there. Puts a lot western "histiography" in context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCOSkXR_Cw

Nice video.

This is a must see for all who want to know more about orientalism.

[dalsingh101]

We need Sikh centric historians as opposed to Euro centric historians on Sikhism.

That Mithar veer ji, hits the nail on the head. Some Sikhs have actually clocked on to this. In America it has become accepted that black people's history must be portrayed through the lens of Afrocentrism. As I said McLeod seems to have realised that there are lumpen egotistical sections of the community that will lap up his work, as long as some flattering comments are made.

Self definition is the most fundamental freedom. Western academia such as McLeod's essential tries to do away with that.

I think one reason is that they find concepts that they like to think of themselves as exclusive champions of, inherent in this mystical Eastern religion called Sikhism. Examples are racial/caste equality, feministic principles, egalitarianism, atruism, community spirit, valour, secular trends, military capability, sacrifice and trends against superstition. That is not to say many Sikhs are doing a really poor job in practicing these but nonetheless if you notice, it is often these very things that are attacked by western academics who seek to prove that these things are not part of Sikhi. This forms the bulk of their work. In essense they are trying to cut us down to size in their own way.

[dalsingh101]

dalsingh, i'm glad you realised what these people are like, but try not to make out maharaja ranjit singh was a shining light like some of our lame-excuse-for-historians do. its time sikhs learnt to stop following petty leaders or non-sikh "intellectuals" and forged our own path in this world.

HSD, I see M. Ranjit Singh in all his "humanness" including both flaws and good points. Of course I admire him but I do not think he was a whiter than white, puritan Gursikh.

The point I was trying to make was one that clearly demonstrated the hypocrisy of western academia by comparing the way they represent a Sikh monarch with an English one who was clearly a bloodthirsty nutjob. Recently there was a series on King Henry on British TV and I couldn't help but notice how they didn't focus on the negative. Yet whenever Ranjit Singh is mentioned you you always get an unbalanced focus on his more controversial behaviour such as his sexuality and revelry. This again is a part of the whole orientalist dialog and it fails to fully appreciate him and his achievements in a holistic manner.

Edited July 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

fair enough, my point is that others dont 'wash their laundry in public', but behind closed doors, they analyze everything and pull no punches. that is how we should be. when it comes to people like mcleod, we should not accept racism through the back door, and give them what they give to us. but in the company of brothers, we have to be honest about everything.

and i couldnt agree more with your points about how they portray themselves compared to us. it also extends to other spheres of life. white people can get petty and jealous of successful sikhs or actions they perceive as threats. the same can be said about muslims and hindus to some extent. some employers even want us to compromise our ethics in order to get employed. its so widespread, it makes me wonder if its part of their subconscious or just an attitude ingrained in a lot of them from a young age.

[dalsingh101]

its so widespread, it makes me wonder if its part of their subconscious or just an attitude ingrained in a lot of them from a young age.

I was talking to a PanAfricanist friend of mine and she was saying the same thing. She came to the conclusion that it may actually be a biological feature of theirs. Personally, I believe it is culturally ingrained. It is a result of the imperialistic mindset and I think it is a fairly recent phenomena i.e. 500/400 years old.

Their society now has this mindset deeply ingrained within them. Dissemnation comes from widespread sources such as their interpretation/selection of history, media. Their is a deep vein of passive hatred and neurosis at the heart of it.

You wrote about the workplace and recently I talked to people from many different cultures and I was shocked at the level of discrimination they reported at work. Apparently there are lots of cases of discrimination and bullying going on in tribunals. These cases are usually settled out of court with a legally binding severance agreement that the victim does not refer to the case in public.

A recent one of interest concerns a Sikh scientist who worked on the Dolly the sheep DNA clone project.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/...een-776746.html

[singh2]

Yety again, you fail to address the issue at hand and selectively read what you like. Have you actuall read any ofteh McLeodian stuff I am referring to?

If so, can yo tell me which publications of his chumchay you have read? If you haven't, just please say so. Stay quiet. Do some research and then come back.

Are you going to read Jacobs and Fennech's books or are you just going to keep defending your position without doing this?

it is you who has put the works on the net so that these are analysed and seen if they amount to blasphemy.

I have read the charge sheet prepared heretics against pashuara singh. I find nothing of substance in that.

[singh2]

Mcleod's agenda was simple, to put doubts in Sikhs minds about SIkhi. He questioned and then said Dam Dami Taksal Bir that Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji gave Guruship to was not authnetic. Then he calls Guru Nanak Dev ji a Hindu and Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism. This backless man was out to put confusion and doubts about Sikhi.

Where did he call guru nanak dev ji a Hindu. Please give refrence. He did not call Guru nanak dev ji a Hindu

Read his autobiogarphy.

[singh2]

There was another aspect to his agenda. He also attempted to belittle the Sikh religion in the eyes of westerners. This is part of the classic white supremacist/colonial agenda that attempts to deride other cultures with the ultimate aim of either subjugating them in some form or reducing empathy for these "others" from within the western world. The ultimate conclusion an unwitting outsider would draw from reading McLeod's work is that the Sikhs are largely ignorant of their own history and have falsely manufactured large sections of it. So, for example, McLeod has attacked the independent identity of Sikhs starting with Guru Nanak message, 5 ks, caste equality concepts and Singh Sabha reforms amongst others. Through his chumchay he has attacked the concept female equality (Jacobs), Sikh shaheeds (Fennech) and Adi Granth (Pashaura).

What such people really hate is other communities having strong, self confident histories of themselves. supremacists know that such things are dangerous to their own perceived supremacy. Hence they attack the foundation of that. At the same time, these peoples own account of their own history is very patchy and seeks to play down their own corporate misdeeds such as slavery, colonial executions, international drug trading etc. etc. In the narrative they produce, they are the enlightened one and the "others" backward, savage, ignorant and unable to truthfully/correctly define themselves. As an example whilst Maharajah Ranjit Singh is a debautched womeniser in their narratives, they play down the psychotic nature of their own royalty such as King Henry, who famously has numerous wives beheaded for trivial reasons.

Whereas other communities have twigged onto such subtle attacks, Sikhs are slow, mainly because McLeod used backhanded compliments which are lapped up by some egotistical Sikhs. He does this whilst continuing to question all of their cultural/religious foundations and that with a very haughty attitude to other Sikhs who question him. His work is taken to new depths by many of the people that end up completing doctorates under his tutelage.

Kala afghana and IOSS chelas are not to be believed. Give us specific refrences. mere generalisations will not do.

The offences of IOSS are much of graver nature than the works of marginalized Mcleod school of thought. Sikhs need to address those first.

here is a dancing queen running from one gurudawars to anotehr. he is having a centre at tornto spewing venom at sikhs scriptures. We close our eyes on them

and are here to sidetrack the real issue facing sikh panth by bringing out a dead issue.

http://www.panthic.org/printnews/0/ARTICLE...0/?mode=discuss

Ragi Darshan Violates Takht Edicts, again. Spews poison against Dasam Granth

Friday 5th of September 2008

Panthic Weekly News Bureau

Gurdwara Management summons Police after local Singhs protest Ragi's visit

Selma, California (KP) – Shunned by Sikh Sangat and declared a 'pakka tankhyaia' by Takht Sri Patna Sahib for going against the mandates of the Supreme Temporal Authority of the Sikh Nation, controversial Ragi Darshan Singh again violated the edicts of Sri Akal Takht Sahib at a Gurdwara during a function held in this small farming town in Central California. The Ragi was invited to speak at Gurdwara Kalgidhar Sahib in Selma, California this past weekend.

In June of 2008, Sri Akal Takht Sahib issued an edict explicitly ordering Ragi Darshan Singh to refrain from criticising the contents of Sri Dasam Granth and Nitnem Banis, the edict also requested all Sikh institutions and Gurdwara Sahibs to not allow such criticism in any medium from their stages and platforms.

"This tankhiya is not only challenging the authority of our Takhts, but also ridiculing the sacred Bani of our Gurus. This can not be excused."

- The Khalsa Alliance

The Alliance stated that it....would coordinate efforts for a complaint against the Ragi so strict disciplinary action can be taken against him - similar to the action against ex-communicated Kala-Afghana.

Panthic Weekly learned that the local Sikh Sangat appealed to the committee at least a month in advance to cancel the program by the Ragi after they found out about their intentions to invite such a mischievous person. However, all pleas by the Sangat were rejected as the attention of the committee members was focused elsewhere.

Several Sikh organizations, including the Khalsa Alliance, were surprised that the committee of this Gurdwara invited such a controversial personality. "This tankhayia is not only challenging the authority of our Takhts, but also ridiculing the sacred Bani of our Gurus. This can not be excused. The Alliance stated that it was in contact with various Panthic organizations in Punjab and abroad and would coordinate efforts for a complaint against the Ragi so strict disciplinary action can be taken against him - similar to the action against ex-communicated Kala -Afghana.

Background – Ragi Darshan Singh condemned by Panthic Jathebandis

Ragi Darshan Singh has been asked by Akal Takhat Sahib not to spread doubts about the scriptures of the Tenth Guru within the minds of the Sikh Sangat. But the Ragi, who is known notoriously as a controversial hothead, has failed to abide by the directives of Akal Takhat Sahib. In January 2008, when Darshan Singh started his campaign to malign the Dasam Granth Sahib, he was at once challenged by over a dozen Panthic organizations for a debate at Takhat Sri Damdama Sahib. This debate was to be recorded and broadcasted live so that the Ragi does not back out of his claims. However, despite the good intentions of the Panthic representatives, the Ragi failed to appear altogether. He was given the option to bring any scholar to back up his claims, but it turned out that Ragi Darshan Singh was not looking to solve issues-his only interest was to stir them up.

Several resolutions were passed by representatives of Panthic organizations to not allow Ragi Darshan Singh to speak from Panthic platforms unless he clears his stance on Dasam Granth Sahib by sitting down with Sikh scholars. However, this did not stop him. He hastily organized his own form of a convention against Dasam Granth Sahib with the support of the anti-Panthic newspaper Rozana Spokesman and other pro-Kala Afghana individuals. No Panthic scholar was sent an invitation to take part in the convention. Such blasphemous acts by Ragi Darshan Singh led Takhat Sri Patna Sahib to summon and later excommunicate Ragi Darshan Singh. Although the excommunication was later overturned by Akal Takhat Sahib, the Ragi was asked by the Supreme Takhat to refrain from taking part in similar activities in the future. The Sikh Sangat was also asked to put complete faith in the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and to refrain from causing useless arguments on this topic. This was the second time Ragi Darshan Singh was asked to refrain from starting controversial topics, the first hukamnama passed on June 6, 2008, clearly addressed to Ragi Darshan Singh, asked that he does not speak about Dasam Granth Sahib from Gurdwara stages. A copy of the hukamnama is being provided here for reference:

(click to view Takht Edict)

Selma Committee denounces Akal Takhat Hukamnama

When the Sikh Sangat approached the Gurdwara Kalgidhar Sahib Committee on several separate occasions, the committee upheld that Ragi Darshan Singh would not be allowed to speak on any controversial topics. Furthermore, it was argued that there was no was harm in listening to someone’s views. The committee however allowed the exact opposite when it provided a totally unmoderated stage to Ragi Darshan Singh for three diwans and also disallowed the local sangat to raise awareness against Ragi Darshan Singh-even though it was initially stated that there was ‘no harm’ in listening to someone’s views. Furthermore, the committee, understanding that there will be opposition shown by local Sangat, asked the Selma Police to provide security at the event.

Committee calls Police, local Sangat forced to leave Gurdwara Sahib

Sunday morning at around 10 o’clock, when Ragi Darshan Singh arrived at the Gurdwara Sahib, sangat had already reached there and was passing out copies of the Akal Takhat Sahib hukamnama that asked ‘mischievous persons’ to not speak against Dasam Granth Sahib. The Ragi was accompanied by the committee members and over two dozen other persons who surrounded the local Sangat and tried to seize all copies of the hukamnama. One or two misguided fellows thought that by grabbing, shouting threats and trying to intimidate the sevadars, they would turn over their flyers or become aggressive towards the committee. They were mistaken. Luckily, for the committee and their accomplices, the Selma Police intervened and prevented them from making more of an embarrassment. The committee was told that the protestors had “freedom of speech” and they could not be forced to hand over the "flyers".

Following this, the committee members at once told the police that all protestors must be removed from the premises of the Gurdwara. The local sangat had no option but to step outside of the “private property”. This however did not stop them from distributing the material that was printed out against Ragi Darshan Singh. As the sevadars stood on the street outside, all cars that were entering the Gurdwara Sahib were handed the information and also acquainted with Ragi Darshan Singh’s background. The committee members asked the police to intercede, but their request was rejected. By this time, the committee had removed all the flyers from the cars and dumped them into the garbage, without considering the bani that was printed on them.

Ragi goes against Akal Takhat Sahib, condemns Dasam Bani Openly

All this time, sevadars remained totally peaceful and kept their attention focused towards informing the Sangat. After some time, as the intention of remaining peaceful became evident to the police, the officers on duty decided to allow Singhs to enter the complex but on the condition that they don’t pass out any information inside. Singhs agreed to this condition and decided to go inside and listen to Ragi Darshan Singh's views. As the sevadars sat down, the Ragi stopped his kirtan and started to deliver discourses. At once, he switched to the topic of Dasam Granth Sahib and started filling doubts in the minds of the Sangat. He made several of the following statements to challenge the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib:

*

Dasam Granth is a pro-RSS scripture; it was penned for the sole purpose of targeting Sikhs to become Hindus.

*

The Bani of Charitropakhyan is profane, its author deliberately included Chaupai Sahib in it to fool the Sangat.

*

Parts of banis such as ‘akal ustat’ and ‘jaap sahib’ were added into the ‘Bachitar Natak’ Granth and its name was changed to something ‘more suitable’ by anti-Sikh agencies.

*

For a long time during the times of Guru Sahib, Brahmins failed to add their beliefs into Gurbani but they finally succeeded when these views were authored into the so called ‘Dasam Granth’.

As this nonsense continued to be aired inside, all sevadars still remained peaceful despite the vicious agenda of the Ragi who seemed to cause trouble on purpose with misinformation and blatant falsifications. The police had become fully convinced that the sevadars would not cause any trouble, and instead, as they had already witnessed in the morning, the committee members and their supporters were the troublemakers. The officers on duty decided to leave and requested the Sangat standing outside to continue to adhere to peaceful opposition. In the end, it was really the Gurdwara Committee members that made a mockery of themselves and their committee in front of the non-Sikhs.

After the kirtan program was over, Ragi Darshan Singh left for the residence of Bhai Tara Singh, a senior committee member. It was found out later that from amongst the committee members, only three – Bhai Tara Singh, Bhai Jarnail Singh Bagri, Bhai Bhajneek Singh and the hazoori Ragi Jatha Bhai Joginder Singh Chandan were in favor of inviting Ragi Darshan Singh. Initially, the Ragi was only invited to the Gurdwara after Bhai Joginder Singh Chandan contacted him.

Two Faced Committee Members of Gurdwara Kalgidhar Sahib

It was just two years ago that the committee invited Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti and other Takhat officials to visit Gurdwara Kalgidhar Sahib when Singhs intervened and stopped Vedanti and others from speaking from the stage as their trip to the US was planned to inaugurate an anti-Panthic Gurdwara in Lodi which did not even adhere to the hukamnama of ‘tables and chairs’ in the langar hall. After this incident took place, the same committee members held a meeting at the Gurdwara in Lodi and apologized to the Takhat Jathedars. At the same time, the committee members acknowledged their allegiance with Akal Takhat Sahib on all matters.

Interestingly, the same committee members now have fully refuted the Akal Takhat Sahib, along with its hukamnamas. Where the committee members actually stand on these issues remains a mystery to be solved. But one thing is clear, just like the Mahants that had taken control of Sikh institutes during the pre-British rule era in India; people with the same mentality have taken over control of the Gurdwaras now. Their intention remains focused solely on gathering all wealth donated by the Sangat and to earn fame, it does not matter if they have to go against the wishes of the Sangat or if they defy Gurmat.

In our next edition, PW will publish further videos of the Ragi's outbursts against Sri Dasam Bani in Selma, including reaction from the Gurdwara management and Panthic personalities.

Edited July 28, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

So true Dal Singh Jee. Sometimes I think that Muslims are so lucky. They have (in my opinion) the most violent faith, history full of bloodshed, slavery which is probably only outmatched by the history of the Mongols. Yet western academics have completed white washed the incriminating chapters of Islamic history and now portray it as a history of enlightenment, heroism, open-mindedness (you know, all the good stuff). Muslims are so lucky. Buddhism is also blessed by historians who show Buddhism in good light.

Yet we have these orientalist Angrez Sahabs who still will not quit distorting Sikh history. In general, Indian history written by these western academics is a very distorted version of history. Swami Rama writes about this with resentment. Sikhs in India and the west need to restart their campaign against these Mcleodians. We need genuine historians who can do justice to Sikhi and be recognised as historians of Sikhism. We need Sikh centric historians as opposed to Euro centric historians on Sikhism.

We need to counter the distortions if any. We cann't stop others from writeing on our history.Have we identified what is objectionable? I think not at all. Just because some heretics and atheists made an issue and we start believing in that.

We can stop people from amongst us to write nonsense on our religion texts. that is much more dangerous than wasting our time on non issues.

Fifth columnists are much more dangerous than ou7tsdiers and i have furnished enough proof for that.

here is a so called lovable scholar of anti sikh forces giving interview as an authority on dasam granth. he became an authoority without knowing the contents of Dasam garnth sahib. That is what we need to combat.

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Video/17

Edited July 28, 2009 by singh2

[dalsingh101]

Admin. Please have a word with Singh2 and clean up the thread.

He has gone into a rant about Kala Afghana again. I don't mind but this thread is about McLeod and his chumchay. I said before he should stick his KA stuff in another thread.

Rest assured Singh2, we are all now aware of the KA threat. No need to keep repeating it every time you post something.

Plus stop being lazy and get those books I told you about. They will open your eyes. I'm sure you will be singing a different tune when you read them.

Edited July 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

Admin. Please have a word with Singh2 and clean up the thread.

He has gone into a rant about Kala Afghana again. I don't mind but this thread is about McLeod and his chumchay.

Repetedly requests have been made to put on the net extracts WITH REFRENCES from the books of Mcleod or pashuara singh which are against gurmat but none has been put so far. What i see is a tendency to carry out propaganda compaign here. In that case i am fully justified to expose the backers of this propagnada.

Can we get some refrences wherein mcleod has distorted sikh teachings contained in SGGS ji and dasam granth sahib? Quote the relevant verses that he labelled as Brahminical like kala afghana.

Below is what kala afghan wrote

Kala afghana writes

1)Waheguru is not Gurmantra of sikhs

2) Amrit vela has no significance in sikhism

3) Nam simran is useless excercise

4) There is nothing like soul in a body

5) There is no karmic theory in Gurbani teachings

6) Sikhism does not endorse reincarnation.

7) Respect for Harmandir sahib is a brahmin practice

8) Pool of Harmandir sahib is just like an ordinary pond

9) Trimmed beards officers have brought laurels to sikhs for bravery in battlefield . then

why sikhs clamour for Amrit?

I can go on but will stop. Has Mcleod said anything like this? Please reply. May be your understanding of sikhism is different t

[Only five]

Where did he call guru nanak dev ji a Hindu. Please give refrence. He did not call Guru nanak dev ji a Hindu

Read his autobiogarphy.

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Articles/115

[singh2]

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Articles/115

Only five ji

Please do not provide me rferences from this anti sikh site. I do not belive an iota what such people say.

We need to have some ethics as sikhs.

Mcleod has rubbished this in his biography. he wrote that guru Nanak sahib was founder of sikh religion.

[Only five]

Only five ji

Please do not provide me rferences from this anti sikh site. I do not belive an iota what such people say.

We need to have some ethics as sikhs.

Mcleod has rubbished this in his biography. he wrote that guru Nanak sahib was founder of sikh religion.

Singh2, that doesn't mean Mcloed is saying SIkhi can't be a sect of the hindu religion. All this adds in now is that he's saying Guru Nanak Dev ji found a sect from the Hindu religion. If he was coming out to say Sikhi is not a sect from the Hindu religion then he should have came out and said it. But he said otherwise, like i posted in my last post. Singh sahba canada are promoting wrong things, but when they speak about Mcleod then it's right on the money. People have bad and good aspects of them and Mcleod knowingly spoke against Sikhi.

[singh2]

Singh2, that doesn't mean Mcloed is saying SIkhi can't be a sect of the hindu religion. All this adds in now is that he's saying Guru Nanak Dev ji found a sect from the Hindu religion. If he was coming out to say Sikhi is not a sect from the Hindu religion then he should have came out and said it. But he said otherwise, like i posted in my last post. Singh sahba canada are promoting wrong things, but when they speak about Mcleod then it's right on the money. People have bad and good aspects of them and Mcleod knowingly spoke against Sikhi.

This is from his book The sikhs ( By mcleod)

The first line itself says when sikhism started.

quote

The accounts ( of sikhs) begins with Guru nanak being born in a Punjabi hindu family in 1469.The life of Guru nanak is described in janam sakhis.

The words of Guru Nanak preserved in the princiipal sikh scripture tell us little about his life but much about his doctorine and belief.The system of belief which lies behind the many hymns of Guru Nanak begins accepting karma and transmigration. All of us transmigrate in accordance with deeds we perform and if we are to get liberation from transmigration it is essential we live the life which will earn requsite karma.Traditional teachings ( Both hindu and muslim) emphasize obedience to such outward conventions as temple and mosque worship, pilgrimage, the reading of their sacred scriptures and other outward observations. Such practices according to nanak are futile.Liberation can only be achieved by inward meditation directed to Akal purakh , the true emperor

Mcleod in The sikhs page 2

Now five only, on the second page itself he has differentiated between Sikhism and other religions. Just because he wrote that guru Nanak was born in Hindu punjabi family heretic singhsabha canada started writing nonsense. That is a propaganda site and as matured persons we should give no refrence of such anti sikh site. Do you know these singhsabha people say that a sikh need not have hair. Hair is just a cultural baggage for sikhs. Now who is more dangerous Mcleod or these so called thugs who grew beard from monaism overnight just to propagate against sikhism at the behest of their masters.

I hope we desist from promoting lies here by citing unprincipled sites.

Edited July 28, 2009 by singh2

[Only five]

This is from his book The sikhs ( By mcleod)

The first line itself says when sikhism started.

quote

The accounts ( of sikhs) begins with Guru nanak being born in a Punjabi hindu family in 1469.The life of Guru nanak is described in janam sakhis.

The words of Guru Nanak preserved in the princiipal sikh scripture tell us little about his life but much about his doctorine and belief.The system of belief which lies behind the many hymns of Guru Nanak begins accepting karma and transmigration. All of us transmigrate in accordance with deeds we perform and if we are to get liberation from transmigration it is essential we live the life which will earn requsite karma.Traditional teachings ( Both hindu and muslim) emphasize obedience to such outward conventions as temple and mosque worship, pilgrimage, the reading of their sacred scriptures and other outward observations. Such practices according to nanak are futile.Liberation can only be achieved by inward meditation directed to Akal purakh , the true emperor

Mcleod in The sikhs page 2

Now five only, on the second page itself he has differentiated between Sikhism and other religions. Just because he wrote that guru Nanak was born in Hindu punjabi family heretic singhsabha canada started writing nonsense. That is a propaganda site and as matured persons we should give no refrence of such anti sikh site. Do you know these singhsabha people say that a sikh need not have hair. Hair is just a cultural baggage for sikhs. Now who is more dangerous Mcleod or these so called thugs who grew beard from monaism overnight just to propagate against sikhism at the behest of their masters.

I hope we desist from promoting lies here by citing unprincipled sites.

SIngh 2, this still does not show that Mcleod is saying Sikhi is it's own religion. So what if the account of SIkhs started with Guru Nanak Dev ji. THis information is irrelevant because it does not refute saying Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism, which is what Mcloed has said.

Here let me give you an example. Take Namdaris and ask where did their account start? Obviously with the person that started it. Now does this account say anything about Naamdaris being a sect of Hinduism or Sikhism. No it doesn't. Both ways it doesn't say anything so there is only one thing we can do with this information. Which is throw it out the window because it's useless.

And this is the samething Mcleod did in the above. To be a good backless hack you gotta say some right things so people would listen to you.

So as far as presenting this info it was a waste. The only way you can debunk this fact by Singh Sahba article is by presenting the same quote in the correct form(if it is wrong). Otherwise, I'm sorry to say your protecting a baised and cunning person.

FOr me it does not matter who you are what status you hold in society, if your speaking against Sikhi then im speak out. Mcleod was no scholar just a hack with a piece of paper that had phd written on it.

Next you'll have people praising Dr. Pashuara Singh, Mcleod's servant.

[singh2]

SIngh 2, this still does not show that Mcleod is saying Sikhi is it's own religion. So what if the account of SIkhs started with Guru Nanak Dev ji. THis information is irrelevant because it does not refute saying Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism, which is what Mcloed has said.

Here let me give you an example. Take Namdaris and ask where did their account start? Obviously with the person that started it. Now does this account say anything about Naamdaris being a sect of Hinduism or Sikhism. No it doesn't. Both ways it doesn't say anything so there is only one thing we can do with this information. Which is throw it out the window because it's useless.

And this is the samething Mcleod did in the above. To be a good backless hack you gotta say some right things so people would listen to you.

So as far as presenting this info it was a waste. The only way you can debunk this fact by Singh Sahba article is by presenting the same quote in the correct form(if it is wrong). Otherwise, I'm sorry to say your protecting a baised and cunning person.

FOr me it does not matter who you are what status you hold in society, if your speaking against Sikhi then im speak out. Mcleod was no scholar just a hack with a piece of paper that had phd written on it.

Next you'll have people praising Dr. Pashuara Singh, Mcleod's servant.

Five ji

I am not a chela of singh sabha. If you want you keep believing in that article. But i do not believe what they write. Neitehr as a sikh i go to such sites that write so filthy about sikh principles.

The relevant reference clearly debunks their nonsense. Please let me know prindiples of Hinduism. What is Hinduism ?Does Hinduism believe in shabad Guru. if so please let us know. I will rest my case. pashaura singh is alive. You can write to akal takhat against him.

[singh2]

So as far as presenting this info it was a waste. The only way you can debunk this fact by Singh Sahba article is by presenting the same quote in the correct form(if it is wrong). Otherwise, I'm sorry to say your protecting a baised and cunning person.

How do you know that so called sabha article is correct. Did they give any refrence?I do not believe in anything on that site which so many sikhs are trying to pull down.

I am not able to understand how sikhism became a sect of Hinduism when the very basic belief in God differs. I am smelling something now.

Namdharis started believing in living Gurus to impart the message. That is the difference between them and sikhs. Otherwise They believe

in teachings of SGGS ji. Applea and oranges are not same.

Edited July 29, 2009 by singh2

[dalsingh101]

Repetedly requests have been made to put on the net extracts WITH REFRENCES from the books of Mcleod or pashuara singh which are against gurmat but none has been put so far.

Like I have repeatedly asked you. Please get off your backside and read the Jacobsh and Fennech book and get back to us. Do this now, otherwise you are going to be embarassed about who you are defending down the line.

Don't be ignorant and familarise yourself with the stuff you are defending. Basically you are lazy and can't be bothered to read those books because you are not really interested about attacks on Sikhi despite all of your posturing.

Regarding McLeod, as you were told previously, their is an existing body of work exposing his nonsense, use a search engine and find it. Are you really that lazy?

[singh2]

Like I have repeatedly asked you. Please get off your backside and read the Jacobsh and Fennech book and get back to us. Do this now, otherwise you are going to be embarassed about who you are defending down the line.

Don't be ignorant and familarise yourself with the stuff you are defending. Basically you are lazy and can't be bothered to read those books because you are not really interested about attacks on Sikhi despite all of your posturing.

Regarding McLeod, as you were told previously, their is an existing body of work exposing his nonsense, use a search engine and find it. Are you really that lazy?

Unlike you I have put the extract for you to see. Can i get your comment on that . It is very strange that instead of commenting on that we are getting diversions.

Here is for you in simple language

1)What is belief system of Hindus.

2) What is their belief on creation of this world.

3) What do they worship?

4)What is belief system of sikhs?

That so called body also says that Guru Gobind singh did not write any bani. They also propagate that SGGS ji is a book and need not to be wrapped in rumalas.Do you believe that nonsense? What is more dangerous for sikhs on priority basis? If you think Mcvleod has an agenda and that promotes blasphemy why is it not being brought to the notice of Akal takhat? Why we are being fed by propaganda here to divert attention from real issues facing sikhs.

Edited July 29, 2009 by singh2