Where Do Idolaters Go When They Die?

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

I'm hoping to open a discussion to clarify Sikh thought about worship of Devis and Devatas and what Sikhi says about those devotees who worship them, as there seem to be conflicting opinions among some Sikhs (see the lord shiva and god thread) and even in traditional Sikh sampardas (in another thread tSingh mentions murtis and shivalings in Udasi ashrams though Udasis claim to worship Nirguna Brahman).

It seems pretty clear that idol worship, the belief that God can be confined to a stone and ritual worship of this stone, is against the teachings of the Gurus. The Devas are also named and identified as being creations of, and not identical with, Akal Purakh. Yet Gurbani also appropriates the names of Hindu deities like Ram, Narayana, Gopal and uses these as alternate names to describe Akal Purakh.

The first question is: can names like Mahakal and Mahakali also be considered to be names for the Supreme Reality by Sikhs? If not, and they are only to be thought of as a form of the Hindu Shiva in destructive form (in the case of Mahakal) and the fierce form of Devi (in the case of Mahakali) and thus creations of Karta Purakh, can, for example, Kalika Devi's name be invoked by a Sikh and can her image be visualised as the power of Akal Purakh in embodied form without worshipping the Devi herself (as seems to be done in Braham Kavach and Ugardanti)?

The second question is: can people who follow Hindumat and worship these Devatas as being God Hirself achieve mukti (which is what the sakhi about Bhagat Dhanna and the stone idol seems to suggest), or did pre-Sikhi Bhagats have to wait until Guru Nanak Dev Ji took physical form?

Before you answer that question, I think it's necessary first to describe how the same Devata can be considered on many different levels, and to illustrate this I'm going to use the example of Shiva since he was mentioned by name in the previous two threads.

The deity Shiva clearly has very ancient shamanic origins as is evident from the fact that he is depicted carrying the basic tools of shamanism: the drum to induce trance, the animal companion (the serpent around his neck), animal body parts (he is sometimes shown wearing or sitting on tiger or lion skin), and the psychoactive drug that brings on the shamanic experience (marijuana pouch). In fact, Nepali shamans today still consider Shiva to be the perfect shaman and still worship him as such.

In etymological terms, shiva was originally an adjective and was used as an epithet of the Vedic storm god, Rudra, who is also one of many deities, associated with natural events and forces, worshipped by the ancient people of India.

In some sense, Hindus who engage in pathar puja today are still worshipping this totemic deity, who has roots in primitive animistic religion, with rituals that are probably remnants of the rites of Shiva's ancient cult (it's a common theme in shamanic religions to worship a special or unique natural objects like stones as being the home of a paricular spirit or deity, and feeding a shivaling might be considered a form of this).

However, at some point, and for some Hindus, Shiva became the Supreme Being: he wasn't just a shaman's totem anymore, he was not just the blue-throated deity of Hinduism's mythology, and he was not just the destructive third of the Trimurti: he was creator, preserver, and destroyer all rolled into one. He was even called Ardhanarishvara, "the lord who is half-woman" to highlight the fact that he was complete and reconciled all opposites within himself, and that there was no need for another. In some sense, his legendary names like Mruthyunjaya (Victor over Death), Tripurantaka (Destroyer of the abode of demons), and Bhairava (the fierce one) became kirat names of the ultimimate reality. (As an aside, many religions follow a similar pattern - Jehovah and Allah were also simply tribal deities and one among many in their respective pantheons, and the rituals of the Jews and Muslims still contain a trace of these tribal roots.)

Now when gurbani tells us that those who believe that Shiva and God are the same are fools, or that worshippers of Devatas will not obtain mukti, is this in reference to the pathar pujaris who think that the totemic Shiva they worship through ritual puja is God? Or does it apply equally to Saivites who call the supreme being Shiva? If it applies to both, what exactly is the difference between a Sikh who calls God by the name of Waheguru and a Shaivite who calls God Shiva? And if it applies to both, does this not mean that those who consider Allah and Jehovah to be the same as God are fools also?

Regards,

K.

[Mystical]

A little side note, gurbani even says Ram and Allah are one and the same.

[valli singh]

.

 

[amardeep]

ਮਃ ੧ ॥

मः १ ॥

Mėhlā 1.

First Mehl:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥

हिंदू मूले भूले अखुटी जांही ॥

Hinḏū mūle bẖūle akẖutī jāʼnhī.

The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥

नारदि कहिआ सि पूज करांही ॥

Nāraḏ kahi▫ā sė pūj karāʼnhī.

As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols.

ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥

अंधे गुंगे अंध अंधारु ॥

Anḏẖe gunge anḏẖ anḏẖār.

They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥

पाथरु ले पूजहि मुगध गवार ॥

Pāthar le pūjėh mugaḏẖ gavār.

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥

ओहि जा आपि डुबे तुम कहा तरणहारु ॥२॥

Ohi jā āp dube ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār. ||2||

But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||

[Mystical]

I heard once that praying towards a stone or direction was used as a focus point and isnt considered as Idol Worship?

[Matheen]

A few examples, from many:

From Sri Dasam Granth Ji:

kee moorrh paathr poojaa kara(n)th || kee sdhh saadhh sooraj siva(n)th ||

Many stupid fools worship idols. Many ascetics and practitioners deify the Sun.

kee palatt sooraj sijadhaa karaae || prabh eaek roop dhaioo kai lakhaae || 4||234||

Many (Muslims) prostrate in prayer in the direction opposite to the sunrise (Westwards). God is one but many consider Him as dual (4)(234)

From Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

prabhaathee ||

Prabhaatee:

alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||

If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

hi(n)dhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thath n haeraa ||1||

According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||

also:

kabeer paahan paramaesur keeaa poojai sabh sa(n)saar ||

Kabeer, someone sets up a stone idol and all the world worships it as the Lord.

eis bharavaasae jo rehae booddae kaalee dhhaar ||136||

Those who hold to this belief will be drowned in the river of darkness. ||136||

Regarding mukti, Guru Ji states :

raam naam bin sabhai bigoothae dhaekhahu nirakh sareeraa ||

Without the Lord's Name, all come to ruin; behold, and know this, O body.

har kae naam bin kin gath paaee kehi oupadhaes kabeeraa ||4||1||

Without the Name of the Lord, who can find salvation? Kabeer speaks the Teachings. ||4||1||

For us (Sikhs), Naam is given by Guru Ji when we become Sikhs by taking Amrit, meditation on this Naam with pyaar will lead to mukti.

edit: just been listening to katha of Chaupai Sahib, and Mhakaal has the arth "the one who brings kaal upon Kaal himself" - i.e Akaal, Waheguru. Note the word is spelled Mhakaal, not Mahakaal.

[Guest]

very interesting discussion. My personal take on this based on listening to sikh sants bachans- sant isher singh ji divan on juttaie shah and discussion with sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale.

Regardless of avastha/status of devi/devta's, if an upasakh do upasana of them by totally beleiving that their gurdev/ishatdev is vahiguroo ji in sargun form- he/shall eventually will get bhramgyan, they may not get direct bhramgyan but vahiguroo ji will give them darshan and take the jaiasgo surti from sargun and attach with its nirgun form. It all comes down to firm faith of jaigaso. As sri dasam patsah says- Jin Prem Kioo Tin Hi Prabh Paieo ||

Here is what sant jagjit singh ji had to say on a similiar discussion:

1. What is sachkhand? is sachkhand a place as beleived by nanaksar samparda - physical place or a state of mind/nirvakalap samadi beleived by nirmale upsamparda of bhai dya singh ji?

- Sant ji said that nanaksar beleif in sachkhand being sargun place (one place), and hoti mardan samparda beleived in nirvakalap samadhi/sarab vyapak. He said bhagat who does sargun upasana of guru nanak dev sees guru nanak dev ji being in sachkhand also have same avastha as bhramgyani of nirgun upasak, only difference nirgun upasak see sachkhand being sarab vyapak(seeing bhram everywhere/everything) but sargun upasak sees an certain place, person as vahiguroo in one set place, sargun upasak also merges with nirankar with an help of sargun vahiguroo. However, nirgun upasana(vairaat) is higher than sargun upasana, nirgun upasana should be ultimate goal. There is no difference in avastha, however sargun upasak of sri guru nanak dev ji eventually either by himself or by sri guru nanak dev ji get their birthi livleen(merge) in nirgun. Where there is no shabad, no dhuni nothing just full nirvakalp samadhi with nirgun paratma.

In Gurmat, sargun pooja/bout pooja and nirgun shabad chintan are both parvan. However, shabad surat/nirgun upasana is consider main focus and is encouraged but does not mean sargun pooja is manmat. Sargun pooja is parvan too equally, it all depends on individual surti's too, but main focus or aim is merge with nirankar which both upasakh of sargun and nirgun reaches but main thing is prem, full faith has to be there.

[jsingh96]

very deep questions and very well constructed, will post response soon

also, would love to hear tSinghs opinion on the questions

[valli singh]

.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all!

The reverend Gurus confirm the existence of Davee by mentioning them often.

The enlightened Gurus never say that they are made of stone and have a Moorat.

Some are entangled with devee and devas made of stone, criticizing them all life.

Blessed ones spend valuable life doing Naam Simran transcending all the statues.

Balbir Singh

[Matheen]

........by Niddar Singh,............

Does he make up stuff as he goes along? I think he's losing the plot.

"Mein Na Ganeseh Pritam Mannao..."

[Maha Kharag Singh]

very interesting discussion. My personal take on this based on listening to sikh sants bachans- sant isher singh ji divan on juttaie shah and discussion with sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale.

Regardless of avastha/status of devi/devta's, if an upasakh do upasana of them by totally beleiving that their gurdev/ishatdev is vahiguroo ji in sargun form- he/shall eventually will get bhramgyan, they may not get direct bhramgyan but vahiguroo ji will give them darshan and take the jaiasgo surti from sargun and attach with its nirgun form. It all comes down to firm faith of jaigaso. As sri dasam patsah says- Jin Prem Kioo Tin Hi Prabh Paieo ||

hit the nail on the head!!!!!

it is this perspective allot of our people dont get, instead they get on the sikh version of the talibani sharia wagon and point and shake their fingers in contempt.

[Guest]

What i am about to share is for upsakhs who don't consider their gurdev/devi devta's as vahiguroo parmeshvar in sargun form, but as gurdev or devi/devtas.. remember whatever one sharda is, you end up getting phal based on your sharda. Eg- Bhai Lehna Ji consider guru nanak dev ji as nirankar sarabkala samarth saroop he became nirankar sarabkala samrath, bhai mardhana ji consider guru nanak dev ji as sant, bhai mardana ji became sant.

Anyway, here is the discourse between sant jawala singh ji and janak singh (one of the sevadars), this indicates an gati/status of people who don't consider their gurdev/ishatdev/devi/devta's as vahiguroo parmeshvar in sargun form regardless of their roles/actual avastha and this discourse also touches on the gurmat sidhant on mukhti.

Thanks to drawrof for sharing this with forum long time ago

Baba jawala singh harkowahal’s updesh about dyhaan to janak singh ji.

p.199

Balee singh became amritdhari and was renamed janak singh. He would do his seva diligently and recite gurbani and do simran. Unlike others, he didn’t talk needlessly about gurmat, electing to keep in guruji’s bhaana instead. One day he overheard baba jawala singh say “one’s mind can’t be controlled or stabilized without the focusing on the guru”. (Meaning one should focus on their guru when meditating).

From that day on, janak singh started focusing on baba jawala singh as his gurdev. Once as he was doing this, he fell to the ground, and baba jawala singh came running out of his kutya and brought janak singh back to conciousness. As he brought him to conciousness he said “don’t ever, for any reason, focus on my body”.

Janak singh replied back humbly, “ I overheard you discussing that one can’t stabilize their mind unless they take their guru’s body/form into their concentration, and that is why I started doing this”.

At that point, baba jawala singh harkowahal gathered all the other sevaks and singhs together and gave the following updesh:

“by focusing on dhyan, and going down that route alone, one will not achieve moksh (Salvation). There are 4 types that you will get to though. They are

1)salok muktee: the form (vyagtheegat) you focus on, you can get to their realm. Ie. Shivji-shivlok, brahmaji-brahmlok

2)smeep muktee: that form that you focus on, you can get close to it, but never fully become part of it

3)saroop muktee: you will become like the form that you worship, but you won’t be the form.

By following these routes you are not at a stable state (atal avastha), because a time will come that no form of maya whether it be asthool (tangible, body, gun) or sooksham (astral, spiritual) will remain. All will devour. That is why guru gobind singh ji’s singh doesn’t want any of these muktee’s. These muktee’s will not allow one to dissolve into akal purakh.

The following question was then asked: How does one get to that point where we become one with god?

Baba jawala singh ji answered:

Hey pyaray gurmukho, the shabad, which is the emanation and form of guruji’s heart, that shabad is brahm. Get absorbed in that shabad and you will find that you no longer exist and that is the way that you will get muktee. Guruji has used the following lines in gurbani to explain this……

1)sabad gur peera, gaher gambeera, bin shabadai jag baugaanang.

2)Satgur bachan, bachan hai satgur paadhur mukat janavago

3)Etc etc (more bani was said to reinforce the point)

It is for this reason that gurmat is focusing on god through shabad ( gurmat hai shabad brahm dee upaashna) because shabad has 3 forms according to wise mahapurakhs:

1)asthool: when your eyes gaze on a granth and you read those letters out loud

2)misrat: when one’s birti (focus/attention) becomes attuned to the shabad, the shabad is both suksham and asthool because the mind is made of the (tatta da sato ansh)….the sat (virtue/true/purest) form of the qualities.

3)Sukham= sookham (astral/spiritual)

When the shabad abhyaas (meditation on the shabad) surpasses the consciousness(surat) of the mind, and gets absorbed in the paar baani (the celestial emanations of the primal sound)..(this is also called, naabhi di baani (sounds of the naval chakra). That baani has the ability to take the jeev’s surti (the consciousness of the being) to the pinnacle point of brahm (the point from which creation was started).

For this reason, you should all focus on the shabad.

(there are a few more parts to this, I will add them soon).

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

Great responses so far, keep them coming. Allow me to summarise the thread so far and set some questions for sake of clarity.

Matheen ji has provided us with pangtis from both Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth (there are many others) that reject the ritual worship of idols. It's clear from them that pathar puja is condemned, and only Nirguna Brahman is to be worshipped through Naam. This is the view represented in the Sikh Rehat Maryada when it prohibits idol worship altogether for Sikhs. This perspective also implies that Hindus and others will only gain a temporary respite in the heaven of his or her Ishtadev, but that this is only temporary and is not equivalent to mukti (cf. Valli Singh's post on Anurag Sagar, Ghat Ramayana and Sarbloh Granth). Furthermore, the reason for this that the pujari is worshipping the historical and mythological Shiva, the totemic spirit of an ancient people.

On the other hand, Neo Singh represents the view that worship in Sargun form as well as Nirguna form is acceptable in Sikhi, and that it is only the sharda of the faithful that matters in the end.

Neo, can you elaborate on this? In Sikhi, isn't Shabad Guru considered Sargun Parmesar which leads to Nirguna Brahman where there is no shabad, dhooni etc? Would you say that the pangtis from Dasam Granth which say that those who consider Shiva to be the same as God fools rejects worship of Devi/Devatas altogether, or does it only mean to say that those who confuse Shiva's outward form with Nirguna Brahman are fools but that Saivites can still obtain Mukti by realising that Shiva is only the clothing worn by Akal Purakh and that Shiva's essential nature is attributeless and equivalent to Nirguna Brahman? (This would explain tSinghs comment in an earlier thread about realising the true identity of Shiv Maharaj.)

Ram, Allah, Narayana, Gopal, and many other names are mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Mystical reminds us that Gurbani says that Ram and Allah are one and the same. Following on from the questions in the last paragraph, does this mean that the Lord Rama of Hindu mythology and the Allah who authored the Quran are exactly the same in all respects, or does this simply mean that these are both Sargun forms (with different attributes) who are identical at Nirguna (without attribute) level?

Keep the responses coming. I'll PM tSingh to join the discussion. Matheen ji, I'm going to read some Dasam Bani and try to find the examples I was thinking about where Dasmesh Pita seems to use names of Devas as kiratnaam of Akal, but that interpretation is the correct one - it is in praise of Akal Purakh who is praised by calling Hir the supreme death of death itself (i.e. eternal).

Regards,

K.

[valli singh]

 

.

[Matheen]

I seriously doubt however that from this stament we are to infer that

Ram Chander who is a Vishnu incarnation (or the all-pervading Ram)

is the same being as the Koranic Allah.........

I doubt Ram mentioned in that context (that Ram and Allah are the same, or how it is used in most of Gurbani) is Ram Chander. It's just one of the names used for Waheguru. If you listen to the Guru Sahib katha by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, they make it quite clear.

Read this Tuk from ang 64 (read the whole shabad to put it in context):

sabadhaah maahi vakhaaneeai viralaa th boojhai koe ||

This is described in the Shabads; only a few understand this!

naanak vakhaanai baenathee jal thhal meheeal soe ||5||

Nanak offers this prayer to the One who pervades the water, the land and the air. ||5||

alaahu alakh aga(n)m kaadhar karanehaar kareem ||

He is Allah, the Unknowable, the Inaccessible, All-powerful and Merciful Creator.

sabh dhunee aavan jaavanee mukaam eaek reheem ||6||

All the world comes and goes-only the Merciful Lord is permanent. ||6||

and from Ang 896/7:

mihar dhaeiaa kar karanaihaar ||

Be kind and compassionate to me, O Creator Lord.

bhagath ba(n)dhagee dhaehi sirajanehaar ||

Bless me with devotion and meditation, O Lord Creator.

kahu naanak gur khoeae bharam ||

Says Nanak, the Guru has rid me of doubt.

eaeko alahu paarabreham ||5||34||45||

Allah and Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

from ang 1349:

aleh raam jeevo thaerae naaee ||

O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

thoo kar miharaamath saaee ||1|| rehaao ||

Please show mercy to me, O Master. ||1||Pause||

IMHO, it becomes clear that Gurbani uses many different names to refer to Akaal Purkh. The subject matter of the shabad makes it clear when Guru ji is referring to individual deities or Waheguru.

The way most Muslims understand the concept of Allah is not the same as how we do. The same goes for Hindus and Ram, Har, Gobind etc. It sometimes gets quite difficult to explain to people who follow Semitic religions that God is one - I've heard a Muslim argue with a Christian about how 'Allah' is real and 'God' is not, and vice-versa.

[Guest]

The way most Muslims understand the concept of Allah is not the same as how we do. The same goes for Hindus and Ram, Har, Gobind etc. It sometimes gets quite difficult to explain to people who follow Semitic religions that God is one - I've heard a Muslim argue with a Christian about how 'Allah' is real and 'God' is not, and vice-versa.

Our some Sikhs follow same rigid mindset themselves, when they mention other naams of akaal purkh are just mere kirtam naam of vahiguroo and vahiguroo mantar only being one true shabad to describe nirgun paratama or get mukhti. We should always look under our bed before looking at others.

Kalyug veer i will respond to your post shortly.

[Matheen]

Our some Sikhs follow same rigid mindset themselves, when they mention other naams of akaal purkh are just mere kirtam naam of vahiguroo and vahiguroo mantar only being one true shabad to describe nirgun paratama. We should look at under our bed first before looking at others.

For Sikhs, Waheguru IS the Gurmantar. I don't know of any Panj Pyare from any Jatha who would give another Gurmantar? Maybe I misunderstood your point?

[Guest]

For Sikhs, Waheguru IS the Gurmantar. I don't know of any Panj Pyare from any Jatha who would give another Gurmantar? Maybe I misunderstood your point?

sorry for misunderstanding veer, my post has nothing to do with vahiguroo being gurmantar or not. I was merely showing rigid mindset of our sikhs too in context of what you were saying about rigid mindset of muslims.

[tSingh]

The term Ram very much refers to nirgun braham in both gurbani and other scripture. Take for example 'aatam raam raam hai aatam', atma which is pure chetan cannot be bhagvaan sargun parmeshvar, it is identical to nirgun braham. Adhyatam Ramayan translated by Pandit Gulab Singh ji makes it abundantly clear that the real identity of Sri Ram Chandra was satchitanand nirgun braham. Bhagat Namdev uses the terms Ram and Raghu Rai interchangably, referring to the actions of Ram. Therefore the sargun svarup extends into the nirgun form. Some would take the distinction between sagun Vishnu Bhagvan and Mahavishnu as this same distinction (depending on the theological position of the commentator on the Bhagvatam). There is no break in identity between the sargun and nirgun, otherwise its starts to fall into polytheistic notions. Regards mukti, sargun upasana leads to sargun mukti (of four types) and nirgun upasana leads to kaival mukti. Therefore vaishnavs look down upon kaival mukti as inferior to closeness or companionship with Bhagvan's essential and eternal sargun personal svarup, Vedantists look down upon the incomplete sarvikalap samadhi of the vaishnav.

hope this helps

[Kaljug]

tSingh:

Both Ramayana and Vishnu Purana describe Ram as avatar of Visnu (this is also the case in Chaubis Avatar). If the Ram whose exploits are described in Ramayana is Nirguna Brahman, how would you reconcile this belief with the general prohibition against idol and Deva/Devi (sargun) worship in Gurbani?

Also, bani makes clear distinctions between Ram as a name of God and the mythological figure Ram:

From Guru Granth Sahib:

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him. (SGGS, ang 494)

SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: Branded with a thousand marks of disgrace, Indra cried in shame. Paras Raam returned home crying. Ajai cried and weeped, when he was made to eat the manure he had given, pretending it was charity. Such is the punishment received in the Court of the Lord. Rama weeped when he was sent into exile, and separated from Sita and Lakhshman. The ten-headed Raawan, who stole away Sita with the beat of his tambourine, wept when he lost Sri Lanka. The Paandavas once lived in the Presence of the Lord; they were made slaves, and wept. Janmayjaa wept, that he had lost his way. One mistake, and he became a sinner. The Shaykhs, Pirs and spiritual teachers weep; at the very last instant, they suffer in agony. The kings weep - their ears are cut; they go begging from house to house. The miser weeps; he has to leave behind the wealth he has gathered. The Pandit, the religious scholar, weeps when his learning is gone. The young woman weeps because she has no husband. O Nanak, the whole world is suffering. He alone is victorious, who believes in the Lord's Name. No other action is of any account. || 1 || (SGGS, ang 953-954)

From Dasam Granth (Bachittar Natak):

The Lord Akal creates millions of Krishna, annihilates them and recreates them.

Some hang stones as gods around their necks, while others erroneously call Mahesh 'God'

I have discarded all these false religions and am of the firm view that He who is the creator of the Universe, is the only Lord.

Everyone is caught in the noose of Death, no Rama or prophet can escape from it. All of them who made grand claims of being Avtars of God died repentant. Why doest not thou, O, hapless being seek the shelter of the One Lord.

Krishan Avatar:

I do not seek the blessings of Ganesh,

I do not worship Krishna or Vishnu.

I do not recognise them.

I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord alone.

The Lord of Death, Akal, is my refuge and He saves me is all tribulations.

I'll try to get back to you on the sargun/nirguna forms being intertwined as you suggest.

Regards,

K.

[Sikh Answers]

Neo Singh quotes from Akal Ustat to justify that sargun worship is also acceptable but the pankti itself only supports prema bhagti. Next paragraph makes it clear what is not acceptable. The Shabad is:

ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰਯੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗੁ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥

ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸੁ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥

ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥

ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧੦॥

In Shabad Hazaray, Guru Sahib says:

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਜੋ ਅਤਿ ਹਿਤ ਚਿਤ ਕਰ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਸਿਲਾ ਪੁਜਾਈ ॥

ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਥਕਿਓ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਹ ਪਰਸਤ ਕਛੁ ਕਰ ਸਿਧ ਨ ਆਈ॥1॥

Clearly, idol worship is rejected by Guru Sahib and he called all such pakhand “koor kriya” regardless of what one thinks or assume. Those who worship idols believe they are worshipping God in form of an idol or shivling or a statue but Guru Sahib simply rejects idol worship without any exception. Gurbani says:

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥1॥

ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਸਦ ਬੋਲੰਤਾ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਤਾ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦੇਉ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਅੰਧੁ ॥ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕਾ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਫੰਧੁ ॥

ਨ ਪਾਥਰੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਕਰਮ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਹੈ ਸੇਵ ॥2॥

Their service is useless. Those who fall at the feet of a stone god their work is wasted in vain. ||1|| My Lord and Master speaks forever. God gives His gifts to all living beings. ||1||Pause|| The Divine Lord is within the self, but the spiritually blind one does not know this. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in the noose. The stone does not speak; it does not give anything to anyone. Such religious rituals are useless; such service is fruitless. ||2|| (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang, 1160)

ਏਕੈ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀਜੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ ਦੂਜੈ ਪਾਥਰ ਧਰੀਐ ਪਾਉ ॥ ਜੇ ਓਹੁ ਦੇਉ ਤ ਓਹੁ ਭੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਹਮ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥4॥1॥

One stone is lovingly decorated, while another stone is walked upon. If one is a god, then the other must also be a god. Says Naam Dayv, I serve the Lord.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Zafarnama says:

ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਨਮ ਕੋਹੀਯਾਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤ ॥

ਕਿ ਓ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤ ਸ਼ਿਕਸਤ ॥95॥

I have killed hill Rajas (kings) who are bent on mischief. They are stone idol worshippers, I break idols and I worship one Lord. (Zaffarnama, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

Mohsan Fani in Dabistan writes:

ਨਾਨਕ ਪੰਥੀ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੈਨ, ਓਹ ਬੁੱਤ ਔਰ ਬੁੱਤਖਾਨਿਆਂ ਪਰ ਨਿਸ਼ਚਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਰੱਖਦੇ ।

Followers of Guru Nanak (Sikhs) do not have faith in idols and temples of idols.

There are numerous Shabads in Gurbani that reject idol worship or any type of sargun worship which idolizes Waheguru. Gurbani teaches to worship Nirgun only and this is the way that was taught and preached by Guru Sahib only. If one thinks they can reach muktee by worshipping idols, trees, graves etc they are highly mistaken and wasting their time. Gurbani teaches to focus on “Gur Moorat” which is Shabad. Bhai Gurdas Ji also states the same in Vaars. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also supports nirgun worship. He wrote abundantly on sargun Kaal but never ever advocated worshipping it.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਜ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੀ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਮਿਟਾਹੀ ॥ ਆਧਿ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਜੇਤਕ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਲੇਤ ਸਭੈ ਛੁਟਿ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨ ਸਦਾ ਇਨ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਕਰੇ ਫਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੨੦॥

Why do you worship stones? The Lord-God is not within those stones; you may only worship Him, whose adoration destroys clusters of sins; with the remembrance on the Name of the Lord, the ties of all suffering are removed; ever mediate on that Lord because the hollow religious will not bear any fruit. (33 Swayeas, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

In Dasam Granth, Guru Sahib focused more on Karam Naams instead of Kirtam Naams "Karam Naam Barnat Sumatt".

[amardeep]

How can one compare idol worship with Sargun Worship? What guns of God does this Idol have??? Its just pathar as said in the saloks of Bhagat Kabir

[Guest]

Bijla Singh,

I think you misunderstood me. Lets make it clear first before we can discuss this topic, sargun worship does not equal to idol worship, if upasakh does upasana of object/ idol believing it has jot of vahiguroo/chaitanta and recognizes that jot of vahiguroo is everywhere not just in that object or idol then that becomes sargun worship. For Eg- Bhagat namdev saw vahiguroo ji in dog, no where this suggest or is to be taken bhagat ji limiting god in bout of dog , idolizing dog as god, but saw jot of vahiguroo also in dog. There is a difference between idol worship and sarguna upasana, it is very fine line.

Nirgun Sargun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aap Apaie Kaiya Nanaka apie fer jaap ||

Eh Parpanch Parbrahm kee Leela|| (Parpanch is no other than sargun vahiguroo)

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥

breham dheesai breham suneeai eaek eaek vakhaaneeai ||

ਆਤਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥

aatham pasaaraa karanehaaraa prabh binaa nehee jaaneeai ||

Also can we request people wishes to discuss on this topic to see this video on aspect of nirgun and sargun before discussing:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=424...singh&hl=en

[Kaljug]

Neo Singh:

Can you define sargun and nirgun for everyone here in simple terms so that we are all talking about the same thing? There is a chance that someone watching the video may still not grasp the concepts involves or simply misunderstand them.

Sikh Answers (Bijla Singh?):

What is the difference between kirat naam and karam naam? Can you provide examples of both from Gurbani for everyone here so that the distinction is clear?

Regards,

K.