[ds123]

I've seen many pictures of old saroops of Guru Granth Sahib where the manglacharan (Ik Oankar Satgurprasad) appears before the raag. A lot of the saroops on http://www.ragmalagurbanihai.info/ have the mangal before raag.

I was watching a video on youtube and came along this video: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OlGxTZgAYSo

Near the end of the video, Prof Surinder Singh claims that we've changed the manglacharan. Is this true?

[ds123]

I also checked many saroops on http://www.panjabdig...es/mainpage.jsp, and they all seem to have the mangal before raag.

This post has been edited by ds123: 07 February 2010 - 07:45 PM

[ds123]

I've looked at more saroops on punjab digital library website and many of the saroops have the mangal after the raag. There seems to be many inconsistencies within some saroops. Some saroops have both variations of mangals (before raag and after raag). The more I research, the more confusing it gets.

This post has been edited by ds123: 07 February 2010 - 10:48 PM

[The Khalsa Fauj]

SGPC was going to fix this issue. However, as always, sant babas made a big issue saying oh they are doing adlaa badlee in Gurbani

Admin note: Empty blank statements against knights of the panth won't be tolerated.


The reason why some places have raag before and some places after is due to copying.

In th old times, mangal was written on the right and was writen a bit above the raag which was written on the left. When reading, mangal was to be read before the raag because it was to be written a bit above on the right.

However, over time, scribes wrote some mangals after the raag and some before. This caused this inconsistency. Sant Samaj likes to keep things the way they are, doesn't matter if they are wrong or right so they didn't allow SGPC to fix this issue.

This is how things were written in the past.

Raag Assa Mahala 1 1 Oaknar Satgur Parsaad



writers thought

[Matheen]

The Khalsa Fauj, on 08 February 2010 - 05:22 AM, said:

SGPC was going to fix this issue.

LOL!

This post has been edited by Matheen: 08 February 2010 - 11:06 PM

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Matheen, on 08 February 2010 - 06:06 PM, said:

LOL!

Cool cool!

[ds123]

If we look at sukhmani sahib as written nowadays:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

It doesn't make sense to say mangal after salok because the mangal is not part of the salok. The salok is:

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

not ik oankar satgurprasaad

...can more members offer their opinions

[Matheen]

The way it is printed is correct, and carried over from the birs scribed by Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji - i.e. exactly the same as the Damdami Bir, which was given gur-gaddi.

The Sant Samaj which got together to stop any changes was not like the one we have today. It was made up of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale, Sant Isher Singh Ji Rarewale, among other Mahapursh. They knew what they were doing.

This post has been edited by Matheen: 09 February 2010 - 08:05 PM

[jattboot]

ds123, on 09 February 2010 - 05:05 AM, said:

If we look at sukhmani sahib as written nowadays:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

It doesn't make sense to say mangal after salok because the mangal is not part of the salok. The salok is:

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

not ik oankar satgurprasaad

...can more members offer their opinions

It doesn't have to make sense. Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die!

Simple really.... I just leave the intelectual stuff to sadhs/sants and just follow orders.

Idiot-proof dharma, just dont be like old be old, meddling grannies.

This post has been edited by jattboot: 09 February 2010 - 02:55 PM

[Mithar]

Personally I am of the view that Manglacharan should come first. Look at this picture:



This is a picture of Sukhmani Sahib from a Gutka that belonged to Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee(6th Guru) whose father (5th guru) wrote down Sri Sukhmani Sahib Jee. As you can see it says:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥


Where as the modern Gutkas the Manglacharan is written like this:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

This post has been edited by Mithar: 09 February 2010 - 03:42 PM

[shaheediyan]

"The way it is printed is correct, and carried over from the birs scribed by Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji - i.e. exactly the same as the Dambami Bir, which was given gur-gaddi."

Matheen, please provide proof of this i.e. photos or academic references.

Ta.

[Matheen]

shaheediyan, on 09 February 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

Matheen, please provide proof of this i.e. photos or academic references.

References? How about the Bhramgyanis in the photo above? Alternatively, visit Hazur Sahib and ask to see the oldest saroop they have.

[Mithar]

Matheen, on 09 February 2010 - 10:23 AM, said:

References? How about the Bhramgyanis in the photo above? Alternatively, visit Hazur Sahib and ask to see the oldest saroop they have.

Have you seen the sroops yourself? What about Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee's Gutka? Who can be higher than Guru Jee?

[Matheen]

Mithar, on 09 February 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

Have you seen the sroops yourself?

No, but have seen photos by people I know. How do we know whose Gutka Sahib that is?

[Mithar]

Matheen, on 09 February 2010 - 12:07 PM, said:

No, but have seen photos by people I know. How do we know whose Gutka Sahib that is?

That Gutka according to Sikh tradition is of Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee. Here is a link also mentioning this:

http://www.info-sikh.../PageRelH6.html

Do you have some photos you can post. I'm open minded about this as long as there is solid evidence to validate a claim. Simply by saying Brahmgianis beleive in this is not evidence enough when we have evidence of Guru Sahib to back up the claim that Manglacharans should come first.

This post has been edited by Mithar: 09 February 2010 - 09:24 PM