taksal/budda dal- unbroken order going back to guru's time?

[Niranjana]

Again it was discovered the taksal is only barely a few hundred yeras old...

quote from chatanga

its still older than the budha dal and taruna dal then isnt it?

Actually no, the Buddha Dal was established in the 1700s (see Gyani Gyan Singh), the Taksal dates back to the 1800s.

[chatanga]

the budha dal was established by Nawab Kapur Singh. Guru Maharaj Himself started the tradition of santhia. Who came first?

[Niranjana]

chatanga - I'm sure you wish it was that simple, however the tradition of santhiya and the origins of the Taksal are not the same thing! The Taksal is far more recent that you think, including its maryada and a lot else.

[fatehsingh]

Damdama as an area itself is renowned for proper Gurbani Santhia. Many became Namdharis in 1800's and brought along with them the knowledge in this regard. A Namdhari Sikh from Damdama was given the Sewa of reading Japji Sahib to Satguru Ram Singh Ji every morning.

However a 'movement', 'Jatha' or 'Taksal' called 'Damdama' is clearly a later invention.

[chatanga]

again my engleesh lets me down, but i ask in simple words according to who is the budha dal older than the taksal/arth parnali samprdaye?

This is the simplest english i could have used for this question. answer the question. and also since when did Giani Gian Singh write 100% accurate ?

[Niranjana]

chatanga - according to historical sources, one can establish that the Damdami Taksal is something that commenced in the 1800s as I have repeatedly stated and that the Buddha Dal was formed in the 1700s.

Gyani Gyan Singh or any other historian is rarely 100% accurate, so your argument is weak to say the least, however what would be great to know is what reference exists for the existence of the Damdami Taksal pre-1800s? Given that no mention is even made of the DDT in Mahan Kosh, it does indeed raise a number of interesting questions...

[Kam1825]

Damdami Taksal like Bhai Daya Singh Samparda is not mentioned in the mahan kosh, it does not mean the sampardas of sants did not exist. I personally do not see it as a seperate samparda to the nihangs, udasis, nirmalas and sewapanthis as if you go through the taksal sants they belonged and acquired knowledge from various sampardas and belonged to various sampardas. If they are in the mahan kosh i apologise for not researching it earlier

Baba Gurbaksh Singh and Baba Deep Singh were nihangs

Bhai Mani Singh and the Sato Gali Taksal are all sewapanthis

Baba Harnam Singh Ji Bedi were from the bedi lineage

Baba Sundar Singh Bhindrawalae and Baba Bishan Singh Murale were nirmala

Baba Gurbachan Sngh Ji were initially nihangs and later nirmalas.

I am sure in the mahan kosh different sant sampardas are not mentioned it does not mean they did not exist.

[Malwe Da Sher]

So far we have had some excellent discussion on the topic this this thread seeked to address. I would ask for the discussion on the origins of the sampradava to be taken elsewhere so that the discussion can continue, or for the admins to start a new thread - Thanks

[Guest Javanmard]

Giani Gian Singh is very clear in his writings about Amritsar that there are ONLY four sampradayas: Nihang, Sevapanthi, Nirmala and Udasi. Even the DDT videos say there are only four: DDT is a branch of the Nirmalas. End of story!

[chatanga]

So duz this mean that the taksal/nirmala came after nihang/budha dal as sum want us to beluive?

[Kam1825]

as i said earlier samparda of damdami taksal has been around since guru gobind singh ji went through the sri guru granth sahib katha at damdama sahib. It starts with guru gobind singh ji then split into two straight away through Baba Deep singh Ji (Nihang) and Bhai Mani Singh Ji (sewapanthi)

i am now very knowledgeable about the Budda Dal but believe it started with baba buddha ji, then guru hargobind ji then to baba gurditta ji originally, from what i heard from nihang niddar singh this is the root of the nihang samparda. It has been said that the art of nihang warfare was actualy passed to baba budda ji by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as they were the one with all the knowledge but had no need for it in their time.

[Guest Javanmard]

The diagramm you are referring to is very recent and actually not accurate Kam1825.

[Kam1825]

thanks Javanmard i guess you are referring to the lineage and origins of the Buddha dal, could you please correct me and tell me where the buddha dal and nihangs started

[Guest Javanmard]

I am referring to the DDT parampara indicated in Prof Taran Singh Taran's Gurbani dian viakhian pranalian. That lineage which is alson in DDT books is incorrect.

[Kam1825]

please tell me which is the corret one then please, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji mention the one in their books, Sant Kirpal Singh also metion the same in their steeks as do Sant Nakhan Singh Ji Sewapanthi. This is also the lineage accepted by Hotimardan samparda, rara sahib samparda, harkhowal samparda, bedi lineage, klera samparda.

Could you scan the pages you refer to as well.

[Guest Javanmard]

come on msn I'll send you something

[drawrof]

Interestingly Kam, it wasn't Sant Gurbachan Singh ji, but rather the writers for Sant Kartar Singh ji who appended the information. This info is courtesty of Baba Jagjit Singh Harkowal wallay. The Kirpal singh or sevapanthi lineage I believe goes back to the point the sevapanthi's learned from nirmallay. I don't believe in the dam dami taksal as being anything divinely appropriated by guru sahib, but rather a 'college' that took prominence in the last 50 years. The historian, Dr. Tirlochan Singh, mentions that he spoke and did bachan bilaas with Inder Singh, the brother of sant sundar singh ji bhindrawalay, and he had said that his brother never referred to himself as being part of the dam dami taksal. Please read "the sword and the turban". Also, there is huge speculation about the origins of the damdama sahib. The one at sabo ki talwandi was a manji before it was made into the 5th takhat, prior to that....the damdama sahib that was mentioned was at anandpur sahib....stuff to ponder

[Kam1825]

Right i have the whole of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Katha by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae before they commence the katha on the sri Jap Ji Sahib they mention the two schools of Damdami Taksal stating that they are the current head of the lineage from Baba Deep Singh Ji and Sant Kirpal SIngh Ji are the current head from Bhai Mani Singh Ji. If you do not believe me listen to the first three parts of the katha which i have posted on gurmatveechar.com

Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji refer to the lineage many times during the katha including the previous caretakers of the lineage such as Baba Harnam SIngh Ji Bedi, Baba Bishan SIngh Ji Murale Walae and Baba Sundar Singh Ji. Again these refrances can be found by them during the katha of the salok vara te vadeek, raag mala katha and during katha of bhai gurdas di varan and krishna avtar.

Now this is first hand from baba gurbachan singh ji in their recordings and this can not be disputed. I will phone Harkhowalae Sant regarding what you have said tonight and see what they say about it.

Baba Avtar Singh Ji Badni Kalan Walae were the grandsons of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji and mention the lineage many times stating it was taught to them by their grandfather. They then learned santhiya from both Sant Mohan Singh and Sant Kartar Singh who also state the university of taksal which they follow came from Baba Deep Singh Ji. They were also looked after by Sant Indar Singh Ji Bhindrawaale and were later given the Badni Kalan Gaddi after they passed. Now why would Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji make this all up?

This is what concerns me when people dispute who was given the gaddi after sant gurbachan singh ji and the lineage of Damdami Taksal i would ask them have they ever fully listened to the katha by the great sadhu?

[drawrof]

The answer to your question is simply no. I haven't listened to it myself. With all the katha on the internet these days it gets overwhelming and even the basic of sites and pracharaks gets overlooked. My source was the tika written by gyani kartar singh's shagirds. I am repeating the first thing that came to mind when the question was asked. As per the taksal, I gave what my opinion is right at the beginning. Thanks for the right direction. I will listen to the katha at some point.

[Kam1825]

i initially thought the history had come fromt he teeka written by sant kartar singh ji as well so i understand. the whole of the guru granth sahib katha shall be on the net in the month on a new site being prepared

[chatanga]

as i said earlier samparda of damdami taksal has been around since guru gobind singh ji went through the sri guru granth sahib katha at damdama sahib. It starts with guru gobind singh ji then split into two straight away through Baba Deep singh Ji (Nihang) and Bhai Mani Singh Ji (sewapanthi)

i am now very knowledgeable about the Budda Dal but believe it started with baba buddha ji, then guru hargobind ji then to baba gurditta ji originally, from what i heard from nihang niddar singh this is the root of the nihang samparda. It has been said that the art of nihang warfare was actualy passed to baba budda ji by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as they were the one with all the knowledge but had no need for it in their time.

this is Budha Dal's theory about Budha Dal , and basically its propogated just to promote Budha Dal as the supreme organisation, but this thoery is just part of the nihang oral tradition. The origins of Budha Dal began with Nawab Kapur Singh.

[Niranjana]

Kam - the entire episode of DDT orginating from the times of Guru Sahib, let alone with his orders and blessings are questionable. This has been discussed extensively elsewhere on this forum, on Sikh Sangat and also Tapoban (all of which I think we'll all agree are quite varied in the make up of their contributors). In the words of the late Dr Tarlochan Singh:

‘To carry the distortion further, the Bhindrawaley Taksal now claims to be the spiritual descendants of ‘Damdami Taksal’ (Spiritual lineage of interpreters of Adi Guru Granth) of Baba Dip Singh, although all the followers of Baba Dip Singh and Baba Gurbaksh Singh died to the last man for the sanctity of the Golden Temple. They left no successor. Sant Sundar Singh founder of Bhindrawaley Taksal was student of Sant Gulab Singh, a Nirmala Saint and actually belonged to the Amritsari Taksal. I had the opportunity to meet Sant Inder Singh, brother of Sant Sundar Singh many times and got first-hand material about the Saints life from Sant Gurbachan Singh. Sant Inder Singh died at the age of 104.’

‘The Turban And Sword Of Sikhs, Prof.Trilochan Singh, Pa.390

Chatanga - whatever one's opinions of Gyani Gyan Singh maybe, according to his Panth Parkash, the Budhha Dal was founded in 1734 AD, outside of "stories", there is little basis to suggest that Budhha Dal was "started by Baba Budha Ji".

[chatanga]

Is it a fact that all the followers of Baba Deep Singh died to a man? Did the Sikhs not liberate Darbar Sahib after this battle? IF the Sikhs died to a man who actually took control of Darbar Sahib? The Sikhs or the Afghans?

[Niranjana]

chatanga - perhaps read the history around that episode, the sikhs sufferred immense casualties and the Darbar Sahib was not rescued from the Afghans per se as a result of the heroic efforts of Baba Deep Singh and the Sikhs (and for that matter, other non-sikhs who also fought alongside him) against the onslaught.

Of course, your average katha describes the scene otherwise, regardless of how accomplished the kathakar/'gyani' may claim to be or what lineage they may possess.

p.s. The fact to appreciate here is that Heroes are seldom judged by their result/outcome, but rather by their actions - Baba Deep Singh, the Sikhs and others who fought alongside them were heroes irrespective of the outcome.

[Kam1825]

If you read the Sri Gurmukh Parkash which is the life story written by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji in the form of kavita is the life story of Sant Sundar Singh ji. In this Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji do state that SAnt Sundar Singh Ji learned from a couple of sants including Sant Gulab Singh Ji but later went to SAnt Bishan Singh Ji Murale Walae, this can also be found in the book about sant prem singh ji murale Wale. The question i pose is why would sant gurbachan singh ji make this up in such a big granth and state such things in their katha if they were not true?

Personally i think listening to the source is better then listening to others who are second hand sources.

According to Niddar Singh and many others they believe this lineage was made up by Sant Kartar Singh Ji but if you listen to the katha by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji it is from them and if one is to speak to Sant Mohan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae they also state their lineage is from Baba Deep Singh Ji. I only know that now as i spoke to them in december. Dera Sato Gali and Sevapanthi Ashram also state this is the lineage of Taksal.

Niddar Singh has only given a biased view based on his own hatred of taksal. Believe me i provided the acticles on the bedis and all the books on the taksal to him. However he did not want to hear and use the good views and articles on taksal at all and was not bothered about the words of sant gurbachan singh ji and thier words on taksal. He even put on the stie that Baba Gurbachan SIngh Ji never mentioned taksal which are quotes from Amrit Jeevan,

"Our Bhindranwalla Jatha has no claim to the leadership of Dam Dami Taksal. Such a claim was not made ever by Sant Bishan Singh Ji, nor Sant Sundar Singh Ji, nor ever by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa. The leadership [of Dam Dami Taksal] was not given first to anyone, nor is there any leader [of Dam Dami Taksal] now." This can be disproven straight away from the words of Sant Gurbachan SIngh Ji in the Guru Granth Sahib Katha.

The referances to Sant Sundar Singh Ji studying from Sant Bishan Singh Ji can be found in Adhiya Solva page 146 of the Gurmukh Parkash. Before that it states sant sundar singh ji gained vidiya from Sant Gulab Singh and Pandit Ishar Singh both nirmalas along with Sant Bishan Singh who they remained with there after. The rest of the Granth continues for some time going through the times of Baba BIshan Singh Ji giving sermons and teachings to Sant Sundar Singh Ji

Again why compose such a bug piece of work if it is all lies!

Page 7 and 8 goes through the sampardas of both taksals written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji with all of the names of the gianis in the lineage written together.

This granth has forewards by the following people, Giani Kirpal SIngh Ji of Shahid Bagh, Giani Achar SIngh Ji of Akal Takhat, Sardar Mangal Singh president of Khalsa Divan, Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Sato Gali, Giani Waryam Singh Ji Door Kot, Sri Maan Mahant Nischal Singh Ji Sewapanthi, Giani Maha Singh, Giani Partap Singh Ji, Sant Ran Singh Ji Dera Baba Kharak Singh ji and Sri Mati Bibi Nirmal Kaur Ji. Were these people all part of the conspiracy including the great mahants/sants mentioned.

Another thing SAnt Gurbachan Singh Ji produced the first lineage of taksal in the format now seen in all taksal steeks in this granth.

Now before you start saying this was all done by Sant Kartar Singh Ji you should all know that this granth was release by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji in 1960. 9 years before Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji passed to sachkhand and 9 years before the taksal split between Sant Kartar Singh and Sant Mohan Singh.

All i would say is first of all listen to the words of Sant Gurbachan Singh before you accept the faults of them through the words of others such as Dr Sher Singh.