166 replies to this topic

[N30 S!NGH]

Kalyug veer,

In order to understand leela of avtar, one needs to concept of avtar from bhai gurdas ji varan, bhat swaies and sri dasam granth. Akaal Purkh transcendent its quality/attributes into sargun avtar based on the need of time (listen to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale discussion with me on this under topic of week forum). Avtar fulfill their duties and go back to akaal purkh respective on each yugas, followers understand their message when they initially transcendent into this earth. But as time goes by that messages gets clouded by dubta/sansa/doubts and misinterpreted and turned into empty ritual.

Lets look at the conditions of both dharams - islam and hinduism around sri guru gobind singh ji time- these dharam followers start idolizing their prophets instead of focusing on the prophets message they start bickering among each other who's prophet is better? and started idolizing their prophets mind you this happens at sikh dharam as well which is sad, tat khalsa mentality are guilty of this.. anyway coming back to the point, around that time, this was a condition of the people who represented hinduism and islam. Guru maharaj looking at the sad state of people he denounced this idolizing of devi's/devta's and hari avtars like krishan/ram by reciting this tuk - Main Na Ganesha pritham maniyoo Kishan bishan kabhoo na Dhiayoo Kaan sune pehchan na tin ko Liv laagi mori pag unso" - I don't worship deities Krishna,Ganesha or Bishan
I have heard about them but do not recognize them. My saviour is One God, the almighty.

Now this is very important in the same sri dasam granth sahib bani- sri guru gobind singh ji warns his Sikhs too regarding this of this grave danger that many hindus and Muslims fell into idolizing their prophet, he warned his sikhs by also reciting the tuk - aad ant eka avtara sohi sumjaieo guru hamera || that my guru is vahiguroo himself but when you look at sri guru gobind singh ji sahib life, his father was sri guru tegh bahudar sahib ji was his gyan data guru despite of that he said my guru is vahiguroo himself so that sikhs dont go astry idolizing the deh or avtars. not only that in bachitar natak itself sri guru gobind singh ji went far as saying- those who call me god will burn in hell, one shouldn't take this tuk literally nor one should take that tuk as form of showing nirmata, guru ji had very clear message behind this, we should try to understand what guru ji is saying- guru ji again warning his sikhs not to idolize me but focus on my message- shabad guru. Sri guru gobind singh ji is warning his sikhs not fo fall for this

Also to further reinforce my point, guru ji is avtar of vahiguroo we all agree so as krishan and ram. To future reinforce my point that krishan maharaj and ram chandar ji and all other hindu gods were avtars of vahiguroo.. sri guru gobind singh ji mentions this tuk in sri dasam granth sahib:

nirgun vahiguroo actualy transcedent in form of avtar in satyug/dvapar/treta from beginning of avtars birth to give gyan and benefit human kind we seem to ignore bhai gurdas ji varan and sri dasam patsah bachan in sri dasam granth sahib :

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||
Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara He said in sri dasam bani again-

Then Bhai gurdas ji mentions: Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||
In each age, the true guru will take avtar - nirgun vahiguroo transcedent itself into avtar.

Sri Guru gobind singh ji was very blunt in his message in his rachna- sri dasam guru granth sahib but that shouldn't be taken as form of disrespect to hindu gods but an reality of sargun avtars(which includes him as well). Here is another one

Ek Shiv bhai ek gyaie ek pher paie ram chandar kai avtar bhi anek hai ... (Sri Akaal Ustat)

He is telling us the reality of avtarhood that we(avtars) come go give the message of vahiguroo, its very important to follow the message not idolize the messenger because avtars bodies were also made of shud satogun still -5 elements..one day they have to transcendent back to where they came from.

In essence, guru ji never criticized the krishan or ram he criticized the people who idolized them in above manner.

Anyway coming back to the topic, title shouldn't be gurmat and gita. The correct title suitable for this type of thread should be- is tatgyan in sri guru granth sahib and bhagvad gita is it same? and quotes from sri guru granth sahib ji and gita should be provided to prove or prove otherwise.

[Bijla Singh]

Quote

Then Bhai gurdas ji mentions: Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||
In each age, the true guru will take avtar - nirgun vahiguroo transcedent itself into avtar.

The translation is wrong. Check Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of Vaars in which he translates “Jug Jug” as 2+2=4 which means Satguru will change 4 more human bodies. Sikhs are questioning Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji about how many more ‘cholas’ will the Satguru change and Guru Sahib replies that 4 more. Then the Guru Light passed to the Shabad.

I don’t want to turn this in another long debate but check the description and qualities of Satguru in the light of Gurbani and Vaars. Avtars come and go but Satguru doesn’t. Satguru (true Guru) always remains awake and is beyond birth and death. Gurbani, Bhatts and Vaars call Guru Nanak Sahib the true Satguru who is the greatest. For some reason sampardas like to put Guru Sahib in the same category of avtars but Gurbani says otherwise. Satguru is “Aap Narayan Kaladhaar..” whereas avtars are creation of Waheguru and have limited powers and at the end are destroyed by kaal but Satguru is creator of kaal. Creator and creation are not the same.

Anyways, can anyone prove that Geeta was written by Krishna himself?

[Kaljug]

N30 S!NGH, on Jul 22 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

Kalyug veer,

In order to understand leela of avtar, one needs to concept of avtar from bhai gurdas ji varan, bhat swaies and sri dasam granth. Akaal Purkh transcendent its quality/attributes into sargun avtar based on the need of time (listen to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale discussion with me on this under topic of week forum). Avtar fulfill their duties and go back to akaal purkh respective on each yugas, followers understand their message when they initially transcendent into this earth. But as time goes by that messages gets clouded by dubta/sansa/doubts and misinterpreted and turned into empty ritual.

Lets look at the conditions of both dharams - islam and hinduism around sri guru gobind singh ji time- these dharam followers start idolizing their prophets instead of focusing on the prophets message they start bickering among each other who's prophet is better? and started idolizing their prophets mind you this happens at sikh dharam as well which is sad, tat khalsa mentality are guilty of this.. anyway coming back to the point, around that time, this was a condition of the people who represented hinduism and islam. Guru maharaj looking at the sad state of people he denounced this idolizing of devi's/devta's and hari avtars like krishan/ram by reciting this tuk - Main Na Ganesha pritham maniyoo Kishan bishan kabhoo na Dhiayoo Kaan sune pehchan na tin ko Liv laagi mori pag unso" - I don't worship deities Krishna,Ganesha or Bishan
I have heard about them but do not recognize them. My saviour is One God, the almighty.

Now this is very important in the same sri dasam granth sahib bani- sri guru gobind singh ji warns his Sikhs too regarding this of this grave danger that many hindus and Muslims fell into idolizing their prophet, he warned his sikhs by also reciting the tuk - aad ant eka avtara sohi sumjaieo guru hamera || that my guru is vahiguroo himself but when you look at sri guru gobind singh ji sahib life, his father was sri guru tegh bahudar sahib ji was his gyan data guru despite of that he said my guru is vahiguroo himself so that sikhs dont go astry idolizing the deh or avtars. not only that in bachitar natak itself sri guru gobind singh ji went far as saying- those who call me god will burn in hell, one shouldn't take this tuk literally nor one should take that tuk as form of showing nirmata, guru ji had very clear message behind this, we should try to understand what guru ji is saying- guru ji again warning his sikhs not to idolize me but focus on my message- shabad guru. Sri guru gobind singh ji is warning his sikhs not fo fall for this

Also to further reinforce my point, guru ji is avtar of vahiguroo we all agree so as krishan and ram. To future reinforce my point that krishan maharaj and ram chandar ji and all other hindu gods were avtars of vahiguroo.. sri guru gobind singh ji mentions this tuk in sri dasam granth sahib:

nirgun vahiguroo actualy transcedent in form of avtar in satyug/dvapar/treta from beginning of avtars birth to give gyan and benefit human kind we seem to ignore bhai gurdas ji varan and sri dasam patsah bachan in sri dasam granth sahib :

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||
Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara He said in sri dasam bani again-

Then Bhai gurdas ji mentions: Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||
In each age, the true guru will take avtar - nirgun vahiguroo transcedent itself into avtar.

Sri Guru gobind singh ji was very blunt in his message in his rachna- sri dasam guru granth sahib but that shouldn't be taken as form of disrespect to hindu gods but an reality of sargun avtars(which includes him as well). Here is another one

Ek Shiv bhai ek gyaie ek pher paie ram chandar kai avtar bhi anek hai ... (Sri Akaal Ustat)

He is telling us the reality of avtarhood that we(avtars) come go give the message of vahiguroo, its very important to follow the message not idolize the messenger because avtars bodies were also made of shud satogun still -5 elements..one day they have to transcendent back to where they came from.

In essence, guru ji never criticized the krishan or ram he criticized the people who idolized them in above manner.

Anyway coming back to the topic, title shouldn't be gurmat and gita. The correct title suitable for this type of thread should be- is tatgyan in sri guru granth sahib and bhagvad gita is it same? and quotes from sri guru granth sahib ji and gita should be provided to prove or prove otherwise.

Fateh!

I have lots of love and respect for him, but I'm not sure whether Sant Jagjit Singh's views on Krishna are informed by Gurbani or his deep understanding of Vedant.

I see lots of criticism of Krishan and Rama in Dasam Granth in particular, but also in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but then I may just be interpreting at a surface level and not understanding the deeper arth.

How do you explain the injunction against not worshipping avatars and Krishan's claim in Bhagavad Gita that he himself is Akal Purakh and to be worshipped as the Supreme Being. If he was avatar of Waheguru, and therefore infallible (?), why would he ask his devotees to worship himself as the Supreme Being as he does in Bhagavad Gita?

Why would the Gurus specifically say that these avatars are NOT Akal, but then ask Sikhs to respect them as being the form of Waheguru despite them having failed to direct their disciples to worship Akal and not themselves?

Also, I'm not so sure whether your likening Guru Nanak Gobind to an avatar like Krishna is accurate according to Sikh teachings. As far as I'm aware, Guru Nanak is pooran Guru Avatar and as such is greater than any of these previous avatars of Hindu devatas.

Regards,
K.

[amardeep]

Kaljug Singh:

I think it has to do with Yug Dharam. In the previous yugas people were required to worship the sargun form of God, whereas in Kalyug the dharam is to worship the nirgun form.

Thats why Krishna says in the eight chapter:


Arjuna asked: Those ever steadfast devotees who worship the personal aspect of God with form(s), and others who worship the impersonal aspect, or the formless Absolute; which of these has the best knowledge of yoga? (12.01)

Lord Krishna said: Those ever steadfast devotees who worship with supreme faith by fixing their mind on a personal form of God, I consider them to be the best yogis. (See also 6.47) (12.02)

But those who worship the unchangeable, the inexplicable, the invisible, the omnipresent, the inconceivable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the formless impersonal aspect of God; restraining all the senses, even-minded under all circumstances, engaged in the welfare of all creatures, also attain God. (12.03-04)

REASONS FOR WORSHIPPING A

PERSONAL FORM OF GOD

Self-realization is more difficult for those who fix their mind on the impersonal, unmanifest, and formless Absolute; because, comprehension of the unmanifest by embodied beings is attained with difficulty. (12.05)

For those who worship the Supreme with unswerving devotion as a personal deity of their choice, offer all actions to Me, intent on Me as the Supreme, and meditate on Me; I swiftly become their savior ¾ from the world that is the ocean of death and transmigration ¾ whose thoughts are set on My personal form, O Arjuna. (12.06-07)

FOUR PATHS TO GOD

Therefore, focus your mind on Me, and let your intellect dwell upon Me alone through meditation and contemplation. Thereafter you shall certainly attain Me. (12.08)



Many times in Gurbani we see that the dharam changes in kalyug and new ways are to be followed in order to attain mukhti.

Bhai Gurdass in his 1. vaar says:

Now listen to the discipline of kaliyug wherein nobody cares for the rituals.
Without loving devotion none will get any place anywhere.
Now feeingful devotion only is acceptable; yajna, burnt offering and worship of the human guru was the discipline of the earlier ages.
In Kaliyug, only repeating the name of Lord is considered grand.

[Bijla Singh]

Quote

In the previous yugas people were required to worship the sargun form of God, whereas in Kalyug the dharam is to worship the nirgun form.

Can you prove that it was mandatory for people to worship sargun form? Truth remains the same and is independent of time. If one way is the correct way then it cannot become false over time. It will remain truth. Guru Nanak Sahib preached Nirgun worship which is the greatest path of all. It will not become a false way when kalyug (time) is over and satyug arrives. According to your statement people will have to go back to sargun worship once kalyug is over which is not correct. Gurmat Path is Achal and will never be shaken by time.

Quote

Now listen to the discipline of kaliyug wherein nobody cares for the rituals. Without loving devotion none will get any place anywhere. Now feeingful devotion only is acceptable; yajna, burnt offering and worship of the human guru was the discipline of the earlier ages. In Kaliyug, only repeating the name of Lord is considered grand.

If you can please post the Gurmukhi text next time it would be great as it is better to find it and understand its context but the translation clearly proves that in earlier time periods people indulged in empty rituals but these are all waste of time. Only Naam is the savior. It does not prove that what people did in earlier times was right. On the contrary, Bhai Sahib Ji is saying that just because your ancestors practiced a certain path or performed rituals doesn’t mean it is the correct way and you should follow it also, rather seek the sanctuary of Naam. It is not possible that a certain way to reach God suddenly becomes invalid when a time period changes. If what people did in earlier ages is right then we would have to declare widow burning, human sacrifice, slavery, child marriage etc correct. Muslims use the same excuse to justify Mohammad’s marriage to 9 years old girl. Further, the translation makes it clear that human cannot be the savior no matter how high avastha he has.

Quotes you provide from Geeta show that Krishna (assuming he wrote it) is not above haumai and always talking about himself as the Supreme Being. Then why did he die? He couldn’t even reverse a Durbasa’s curse. It is very simple: one who dies cannot save anyone else. It would be better just to discuss Geeta in its own context and not compare it to Guru Granth Sahib. Geeta is a book but Gurbani is Satguru, revealed word of God.

[drawrof]

Nirgun brahm is the only entity without blemish or biased.

Satguru which I have understood as being the accesible element of god which we experience above the senses is and always will be forever permanent. Our 10 guru's became that and were one and had no identity of themselves as they became the manifest. I am still of the belief that Guru Nanak never had a living teacher as a spiritual guide but was blessed to have been realised from a young age.

I agree that sikhi has vaishnav influences, but I think we need to look at what form of vaishnavism was accepted or in vogue. Ramamand was a Ramanuji who stepped away from his guru raghavnand ji (from the sri samparda) and became less casteist, opened up the doors of bhagti to females (ie. sarsuti) and is famed for being a proponent of sargun bhagti in the form of seeta's love for ram (as opposed to many of the other ramanuji's who were still focusing heavily on krishan-leela....which in itself had become riddled with nuances that would make it seem heretical in the least and hedonistic at best). There came a point though where ramanand clearly became a nirgun upashik and that is the one 'hindvi padha we see in guru granth sahib ji.

So let me take this back to the first comment, people will speak from their experience and their own influence. If one's influence was a legacy that lasted 300+ years at that time (which would be the ramanuji form of sargun bhagti) then the usage of that lingo/vernacular would be common-place in which case I am saying that even our mahan-vidhvans/mahapurakhs would have differing points of view. (lets look at the wealth of knowledge tsingh has shared with us on this forum with regards to pandit tara singh narotam).

Here comes the caveat though....nath yogi's/siddhs/bairagis (shaiv....please correct me if I'm wrong).....According to 'preached' and widely accepted thought, sikhs used to read panj granthi as their daily liturgy....Japji sahib is deemed to be a conversation of guru angad sahib ji with bairagi's and siddh gosht is a conversation with siddhs/followers of gorak nath (nath yogis)...From my little understanding at this point, I have come to understand that shaivites don't believe in avtarvaad, in which case if you look at these 2 shabads/charchay...the terminology of avatar doesn't come in (I have taken into account that the sampardai sateeks do have the 6 avatar philosophy, which I believe was introduced by pandit tara singh narotam)but nothing within the bani itself is indicative of avtarvaad....so In closing I would have to say....that although it may be a metaphor or a reality, I sit on the fence at this time and

I agree with Bijla singh here, 'ad ant ekai avatara, soi guru samjayo hamara'- chaupai sahib (pt.10)....where I believe that avtarvaad being a concept of great influence in the views of scholars/bhagats/bhatts at that time has become an accepted form of conveying messages, but I do not know how 'strictly' it applies to sikhi....please comment and correct me, I'm open to learning....

fateh!

[N30 S!NGH]

Bijla Singh, on Jul 22 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

The translation is wrong. Check Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of Vaars in which he translates “Jug Jug” as 2+2=4 which means Satguru will change 4 more human bodies. Sikhs are questioning Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji about how many more ‘cholas’ will the Satguru change and Guru Sahib replies that 4 more. Then the Guru Light passed to the Shabad.

Bijla Singh,

I don't have bhai veer singh's teeka with me at the moment nor i have much time at this moment (as i m out of town with limited internet access) to discuss this thread with you likewise it may turn into another healthy but long long long discussion/vichar. We can do vichar on this, as soon as i am in town which would sometime after august 3rd.

Nevertheless, most of this already been discussed, people who are interested can search this forum and on sikhsangat (I had Namstang alias on there).

[amardeep]

Sorry bijla singh ji i'll remember to post the gurmukhi text as well as page and ang numbers etc.


The vaar by Bhai Gurdass is from the following:

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...i=16&vaar=1

Also please click on next and see the vaar that comes after. They talk about following the duty of ones age.

Quote

Can you prove that it was mandatory for people to worship sargun form? Truth remains the same and is independent of time. If one way is the correct way then it cannot become false over time. It will remain truth. Guru Nanak Sahib preached Nirgun worship which is the greatest path of all. It will not become a false way when kalyug (time) is over and satyug arrives. According to your statement people will have to go back to sargun worship once kalyug is over which is not correct. Gurmat Path is Achal and will never be shaken by time.

In the following tuks we'll read that yug dharam changes overtime, yet the essence always remains the same..



ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
Now, this is the essence of the teachings of the four ages: for the human race, the Name of the One Lord is the greatest treasure.

ਜਤੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਓਨਾ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੨॥
Celibacy, self-discipline and pilgrimages were the essence of Dharma in those past ages; but in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Praise of the Lord's Name is the essence of Dharma. ||2||

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਧਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥
Each and every age has its own essence of Dharma; study the Vedas and the Puraanas, and see this as true.

Ang 797


ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਸਤੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਜਗੀ ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਪੂਜਾਚਾਰ ॥
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, was Truth; in the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga, charitable feasts; in the Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga, there was worship.

ਤੀਨੌ ਜੁਗ ਤੀਨੌ ਦਿੜੇ ਕਲਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰ ॥੧॥
In those three ages, people held to these three ways. But in the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the Lord is your only Support. ||1||

Ang 346

and finally a shabad that tells us to find the dharam of this age:


ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਪੜਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਈ ॥
Learn the Dharma of this age, O Siblings of Destiny;

ਪੂਰੈ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਭ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
all understanding is obtained from the Perfect Guru.

ਐਥੈ ਅਗੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਖਾਈ ॥੧॥
Here and hereafter, the Lord's Name is our Companion. ||1||

Ang 230


Sakhi Rehit ki by bhai nand lal (i dont have the gurmukhi text for this one )


"Idol worship, ritual, wearing the dhoti, and leaving the head bare are duties that were required in previous yugas(not during the present).
During the Kalyuga, the proper duty to observe is that which binds diciple to Guru. Each Yuga has its own Veda. For the Kalyuga it is the Atharva Veda. According to the Atharva Veda he who lives in the kalyuga and obeys the word of the Guru shall find rich fullfilmen, whereas he who does not obey it will sink in the ocean of existence."

-Sakhi Rehit Ki by Bhai Nand Lal (Translated by Mcleod)

Edited by amardeep, 22 July 2009 - 06:18 PM.

[Bijla Singh]

Amardeep, quotes you provided only state what people did in earlier times and the rituals they performed. It makes no mention that they were required to do this to obtain salvation. I hope you see the difference. Doing something in the past is not the same as obligation. Akal Purakh did not make it mandatory for people to worship sargun. Pauri (in the link) and the next one make it clear that without Satguru no one can achieve salvation because without the sun darkness will not go away. Clearly, previous religions and rituals of yugs created darkness which was cleared by the manifestation of Satguru Nanak Sahib.

Gurmukhi text of Sakhi Bhai Nand Lal Ji is this:

ਤਬ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਹਿਆ: ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਵੈਗਾ ਸੋ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਥੀਂ ਬਗੈਰੁ ਹੋਰਥੈ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਨ ਕਰਸੀ । ਅਤੈ ਜਿਥੇ ਸ਼ਬਦੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਥੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਨੀ, ਹੋਰ ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਮਸਾਣੀ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਵਣਾ । ਪੰਡਤ ਪਾਂਧੇ ਮੀਏਂ ਮਹਤੇ ਦੀ ਮਤ ਨਹੀ ਲੈਣੀ ਅਤੇ ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਹੋਸੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਥੀਂ ਸਿਵਾਇ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਿਆ, ਭਦਣੁ, ਉਸਤਰਾ ਨਹੀ ਲਾਵਣਾ । ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ, ਤਰਪਣੁ ਪੂਜਾ, ਅਰਚਾ, ਧੋਤੀ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ, ਸਿਰੀਂ ਨੰਗਾ ਖਾਵਣਾ ਨਾਹੀ । ਨੰਗੀ ਬੋਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਅਗੈ ਬੈਠਣਾ ਨਾਹੀ । ਜੋ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਹੋਸੀ ਸੋ ਇਤਨੀਆਂ ਵਸਤੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਨਾ ਆਵਸੀ । (ਸਾਖੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਕੀ ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ)

Mcleod translated it wrong. It does not mention the word “required” and Mcleod does not provide any proofs (as usual) that people were actually required to waste time in rituals in order to achieve salvation. They were blinded by the hypocrisy of Brahmins but Waheguru made no such requirement.
Gurmat is independent of time because true path does not become invalid over time. Gurmat will not become invalid when satyug comes. Waheguru has remained “Sach” since the beginning and so has His Naam. His path, Gurmat, will always remain “Sach” as well.

[amardeep]

Does'nt it say


ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਧਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥
Each and every age has its own essence of Dharma; study the Vedas and the Puraanas, and see this as true.

jug jug aapo aapna dharam hai

[Bijla Singh]

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Ramamand was a Ramanuji who stepped away from his guru raghavnand ji (from the sri samparda) and became less casteist, opened up the doors of bhagti to females (ie. sarsuti) and is famed for being a proponent of sargun bhagti in the form of seeta's love for ram (as opposed to many of the other ramanuji's who were still focusing heavily on krishan-leela....which in itself had become riddled with nuances that would make it seem heretical in the least and hedonistic at best). There came a point though where ramanand clearly became a nirgun upashik and that is the one 'hindvi padha we see in guru granth sahib ji.

This is not related to the topic but very interesting note. As you mentioned Ramanand Ji left his Guru (Raghva Ji) and started Raam bhagtee as opposed to Krishan bhagtee and gave new mantra “Ram-E-Namah”. Then what changed his mind that made him turn from sargun worshipper to nirgun worshipper? In his shabad he says Satguru came to him and showed him the true path and Satguru’s shabad erased millions of his karams. If he didn’t have a guru then which Satguru came to him? Which Shabad was it? Who started Nirgun worship first that influenced Ramanand Ji to become nirgun worshipper? Something for you to ponder upon. Have fun

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ 3 ॥
ਪੂਰਾ ਥਾਟੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
ਇਸੁ ਪਰਪੰਚ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਮਤੁ ਕੋ ਧਰਹੁ ਗੁਮਾਨਾ ॥1॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਮਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋ ਜੀਅਹੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
ਜਤੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਓਨਾ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥2॥
ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਧਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਗਿ ਤੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪਰਵਾਨਾ ॥3॥
ਕਹਤ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੇ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਾਏ ਚੂਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
ਕਹਤ ਸੁਣਤ ਸਭੇ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮਾਨਤ ਪਾਹਿ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥4॥4॥

Amardeep ji, read the entire Shabad and see what it actually implies. It does not declare that previous religions were correct or what Vedas and Puranas preached is the right way. Shabad clearly rejects “jap tap teerath” etc and advocates only Naam japna by meeting Satguru. We can discuss it in details if you want but I think the Shabad is very clear. It does not say that people were required to do “jap tap teerath” in earlier times. It only says what people did and followed in previous times and Guru Sahib rejected it altogether. Only Naam is the savior. Your initial post states that people were required to do such rituals and sargun worship but Gurbani only states what people did and then rejected it. Gurbani doesn't prove that people were really required to do it.

[amardeep]

I'll look into it before i'll discuss this matter further.. thanks for your input bijla singh ji

[drawrof]

Bijla,

the questions you pose are in line with what I was getting at....IF I weren't clear before I'll say it again, We are all byproducts of our experience and our environment. Nirgun brahm is the inexpressible and any attempt we make to describe nirgun brahm falls short of the truth because that sach which is in creation can not be captured in creation. Similarly, when dealing with these kinds of theological issues, one would have to talk in the vernacular that people are aware and people are conversant. Ramanand, who is deemed to be the guru of kabir, sain, ravidas, pippa and dhanna believed in sargun brahm. Avtarvaad is definitely part of sargun bhagti, what I am saying is that the bhagats and the bhatts, when getting diksha from the guru's and attaining their respective avastha's would only praise the guru in the highest/best/most profound way they know how...

On the topic of whether avtarvad is a theological reality or not...I not informed enough to make a comment, but I do believe there is some sort of descent...hence making us all avatars of a sort....

As for gurmat, I believe it is mostly nirgun upashana, but there are many 'sargun' elements of worship that have become part of sikhi (all across the board)....<Drawrof, preparing his own gallows>....

Nanaksar- guru bhagti- the way guru granth sahib ji is worshipped is guru bhagti

Focusing on waheguru mantar in your mind in its 'akhree' form is a form of sargun bhagti

Focusing on a picture of the guru, picture of a sant, or any point is part of sargun bhagti


I don't say sargun bhagti is any less (I definitely don't think it is more), but I see it as being a stage one has to get past to do nirgun upashna.....if one has a 'jugti' or way to circumvent it, then yes....nirgun upashana is the way to go......

[amardeep]

I came across this tuk

ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਈ ਕਿਵ ਛੂਟਹ ਹਮ ਛੁਟਕਾਕੀ ॥
कलिजुग का धरमु कहहु तुम भाई किव छूटह हम छुटकाकी ॥
Kalijug kā ḏẖaram kahhu ṯum bẖā▫ī kiv cẖẖūtah ham cẖẖutkākī.
Tell me, O Siblings of Destiny, the religion for this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. I seek emancipation - how can I be emancipated?


Another tells you to find the dharam of this yug.

[N30 S!NGH]

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The translation is wrong. Check Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of Vaars in which he translates “Jug Jug” as 2+2=4 which means Satguru will change 4 more human bodies. Sikhs are questioning Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji about how many more ‘cholas’ will the Satguru change and Guru Sahib replies that 4 more. Then the Guru Light passed to the Shabad.

Sorry for late reply, from uthanka point of view (taking the whole pauri) -bhai veer singh ji translation on this tuk is 100% correct as its pretty much consistent with the pauri. But as there are more than one interpretation of gurbani as long its within gurmat sidhant because from vikayaran pakh- bhai kahn singh nabha in his mahan kosh translates jug jug = each age not 2 + 2, also if one compares this tuk of 48th pauri with bhata svaiie on different yugas then initial translation i posted seems more consistent. Nevertheless, I think both interpretations are correct.