29 replies to this topic

[shaheediyan]

A big problem (in my eyes) today is the culture of personality worship (whether people admit it or not). To the extent that people put the ideas and beliefs of their role models before those of Guru, and don't even bother checking their role models beliefs for authenticity? Funny thing is, it is completely normal for a person learning about Sikhi to question teh Guru's status, their teachings, their Sakhis etc (Khoj), but when one questions a Sikh personality's ideas (rather than devotion), all hell breaks loose (generally).

Mithr, please give me your defintion of a Mahapursh?

I have heard many things i.e. they can travel back in time (therefore have knowledge of real history), they have complete worldly knowledge (i.e. languages etc etc, they have had Guru's darshan and therefore have correct understanding of Sikh theology, philosophy, rehits, atmak gyaan etc.

But the truth is that many Gursikh given Mahapursh titles - have some conflicting views, how is then accounted for?

I respect Bhai Randhir Singh as a devout Gursikh, but could it not be possible he was wrong on a few issues i.e. Bhai Niranjana has mentioned Bhasauria influence still existing - obvious examples of this being strict vegetarianism (to the extent of enforcing that belief on other Khalsa such as Nihangs), Keski as Kakaar and Raagmala.

May be this should be moved to a different thread.

[londondajatt]

lol i went to a catholic school straight after i left a sikh school, boy that messed my thinking up, made my thoguht proper christianised about sikhi.

and well, about disciples, i would call akjs disciples of bhair randhir singh, would that be wrong?

[londondajatt]

lol i went to a catholic school straight after i left a sikh school, boy that messed my thinking up, made my thoguht proper christianised about sikhi.

and well, about disciples, i would call akjs disciples of bhai randhir singh, would that be wrong?

i have seen this christianised tribal mentality being taught by boss and sikh societies.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I don't think it is the judaeo christian viewpoint that these individuals view Sikhi through, but, i'd say more accurately, 'the diluted literalism which grew out of the Judaeo-christian tradition'. Judaeo-christian in this context is taken to mean, the mythologies rituals traditions and symbols which form part of the christian religion, in a very broad sense. There are many examples of esoteric traditions in the west which are akin to the traditions in the east, such as the corpus hermiticum and the emerald tablets of hermes trismesgistus. But these traditions were the first to become diluted with the rise of those individuals of the 'diluted literal' type. Now this strange disease is also spreading to the so called eastern traditions. So maybe instead of segregating judaeo-christian and indic traditions, it may be beneficial to segregate those of the diluted literal take everything at face value 'mad' individuals to those who wish to penertrate to the essence of phenomena, khoj karan vala, or true sikhs.

To re-iterate my point 'christianity' is a facade to propogate a mindless conformity, and has nothing to do with real christianity. It is a sad disease of superficiality that unfortunately breeds a dire cynicism, when such holy and pavittar realities are abused in such ways.

[Niranjana]

Mekhane'ch Jannat wrote:

"I don't think it is the judaeo christian viewpoint that these individuals view Sikhi through, but, i'd say more accurately, 'the diluted literalism which grew out of the Judaeo-christian tradition'."

I have no issues with this clarification/suggestion, just wanted to add further that it was not only Bhai Randhir Singh or Babu Teja Singh Bhasauria who were affected by this view, several others from the same period were too - it is very clear when one reads mass-produced literature published from the early 20th century in Punjab that it is not only the impact of Christian educational establishment but that very fact that the rulers of the time (the British) were themselves (predominantly Protestant) Christians.

[Mithr]

double post

[Mithr]

Niranjana said:

Mithr,

It is not my place to judge Bhai Sahib and his accolades, I am simply referring to facts that Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh was disciple of Teja Singh Bhasauria and whilst he may have broken off ties with him, it is evident that many other ideas of Teja Singh continue to live on within Bhai Sahib's thoughts and views.

And with reference to any of his writings you are saying this? or is this assertion based on Suni-Sunayi Gall (hear say)?

Lets see, the reasons why Teja Singh was kicked out of the Panth is because tried to take out Bhagat Bani, most of Dasam Bani and change words within Gurbani and he was the most fanatical supporter of Padshed (seperated letters) of SGGSJ. In contrast to his, Bhai Randhir Singh extensively quotes from Bhagat Bani, Dasam Bani, was against Padshed. In fact, I remember reading a book of his in which he condemned the Bhasourias for writing against Dasam Bani and even quoted from Dasam Banis that the Bhasaurias denied.

It seems you havn't really read his books to make such an ignorant(with respect) statement about Bhai Randhir Singh being a follower of or having similar views to Teja Singh Bhasour.

Niranjana said:

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the point. I am NOT accusing Bhai Sahib of being a Christian missionary (which is what your reaction seems to be implying), my reference relates to the methodology applied by "Semetic" traditions when analysing or explaning their scriptures and customs - these stem from a particular worldview which is not necessarily consistent with that arising in India, and hence (as much as many Bhausauria types here with hate to admit), Sikhism.

How exactly did Bhai Sahib use semitic methodology, with reference to his writings of course. He has only quoted from the primary Sikh canonical writings when writing about Gurmat.

By Sikh canonical writings I mean Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Shri Dasam Granth Ji, Bhai Gurdas Dhiya Varaan, Kabit of Bhai Gurdas Ji, Kalam's of Bhai Nand Lal Ji.

Niranjana said:

Bhai Sahib along with many others of his generation were educated in Christian schools, it is only natural for them to adopt such means - I myself am educated at a Grammar School, there are many things I believed during my teens and early 20's with regard to my then understanding of Sikhism which was clearly influenced by my educational upbringing - needless to say, I can look back and smile at the situation..

Now common Niranjana... How does one being educated in a Christian school make one christian influanced? In India I like millions of people have also studied in a Christian school, and I or my siblings can safely say we have NOT been influanced by Christianity one bit. I've noticed that when people cannot quote a man from his writings or his words to prove a point, they find every little bit of evidence they can to prove a point. Now by saying a man went to a Christian school and holding it against him doesn't really prove your point logically. If you can quote his writing and prove he was influanced by Christianity or Christian ideas, then please do so.

Using your argument, one could say anything against anyone to prove something without any base. I mean, it's almost like me saying that Rattan Singh Bhangoo and his book Panth Parkash were British inlfuanced because the British commissioned him to writes that book. Or maybe a Brahmgiani like Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hoti Mardan was British inflaunced since he served in the British army. Using these types of arguments quite honestly don't make much sense.

Niranjana said:

To answer your question, yes I have read Bhai Sahib's books and those of Bhai Rama Singh too - I would ask that you kindly reconsider my initial comment and to what end I am making it

It's been a while since I've read his books. But I would encourage you to read his books in Punjabi. I think you have gotten you impression by reading his books in the English translation. That is the fault of the translator. But Bhai Sahib has written in such a difficult Punjabi language that when the translator translates it into English he sometimes might have used some Judeo Christian terms which probably gave you the wrong impression. Again, I would suggest you to read his Punjabi books. Forget the Enlgish translations.

Niranjana said:

That is very commendable, however I can't see the relevance here, "Sant Baba" Maan Singh (that great Baba with the sex slaves) also administered Amrit to many people, doesn't necessarily change things with regard to his sex slaves. Let's leave the emotions aside for a moment.

Comparing those two is like comparing a dooshbag boxer like Prince Naseem (Hamed) to a great legendary boxer like Mohammad Ali. The problem with comparing a Mahpursh like Bhai Randhir Singh to a Dusht like Maan Pehova is that while Maan Singh says something and does the contrary to his own teachings, but contrast this to Bhai Randhir Singh who leads by example whether it is in spiritual matters or fighting for his Desh. He was a real Mardh, a man of his word.

[shaheediyan]

"Lets see, the reasons why Teja Singh was kicked out of the Panth is because tried to take out Bhagat Bani, most of Dasam Bani and change words within Gurbani and he was the most fanatical supporter of Padshed (seperated letters) of SGGSJ."

I recall the reason for him getting kicked out of the panth was printing saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without Raagmala?

[Mithr]

shaheediyan said:

"Lets see, the reasons why Teja Singh was kicked out of the Panth is because tried to take out Bhagat Bani, most of Dasam Bani and change words within Gurbani and he was the most fanatical supporter of Padshed (seperated letters) of SGGSJ."

I recall the reason for him getting kicked out of the panth was printing saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without Raagmala?

That was just one of many reasons. In the Saroops he printed he also took out the Bhagat Bani. Plus he had some strange type of Hindu phobia. Anywhere in gurbani where it said "Raam" or other "Hindu" sounding names for Vaheguru, he would change them to make them sound more "Sikh". Strange fellow he was. Another reason was that, at the time there was no such thing as Padshed Saroops of SGGJS. He was the first to introduce this innovation to the panth. So basically he printed Padshed sroops, without Bhagat bani, without Ragmala, without so called hindu souding names of Vaheguru. This was too much to tolerate for the Panth, and so he was kicked out of the Panth.

In addition to that, he was also against most of Dasam Bani. Unlike Kala Afghana who discards all of Dasam Bani, Teja Singh Bhasour did beleive in some Dasam Bani, but he discarded most which also caused many Panthic people of the time to oppose him.

But in his younger years, he didn't always have these beleifs. There was a time when he was a leading Sikh leader of the Malwa Sikhs. He did massive Parchaar in his day bringing many people from Malwa into Sikhi. He was also a social reformer, he would encourage girls to attend school, he would do massive parchar against smoking because at the time many people in Malwa would smoke Hukaas. But something happened along the way and he started having these strange views concearning religion. I'm not really sure of what his views on meat were.

His example is for us. Who ever Guru Jee wants to raise to the position of leader he can. But who ever goes away from Guru Sahib's Nazar, that person falls like ash. After Teja Singh Bhasour was excommunicated, no one paid any attention to him. He died in obscurity. We as Sikhs need to pray from out hearts to guru Jee that our views stay in tune with Gurmat and never get corrupted like what happened to Teja Singh Bhasour.

[N30 S!NGH]

shaheediyan said:

"Lets see, the reasons why Teja Singh was kicked out of the Panth is because tried to take out Bhagat Bani, most of Dasam Bani and change words within Gurbani and he was the most fanatical supporter of Padshed (seperated letters) of SGGSJ."

I recall the reason for him getting kicked out of the panth was printing saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without Raagmala?

It was actually much more as mithr said, i created a thread not long ago with references what exactly he did, dangerous of bhausarias in the panth.. here is the link for it: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...pic.php?t=10112

[Niranjana]

Mithr,

"Using your argument, one could say anything against anyone to prove something without any base. I mean, it's almost like me saying that Rattan Singh Bhangoo and his book Panth Parkash were British inlfuanced because the British commissioned him to writes that book. Or maybe a Brahmgiani like Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hoti Mardan was British inflaunced since he served in the British army. Using these types of arguments quite honestly don't make much sense"

You seem to be missing the point and in any event, it is not in my interest to convince you of another viewpoint, I have simply laid out my own supported with reasons where needed.

Actually, Rattan Singh Bhangoo's text is influenced by the British in many ways, which why the modern Nihang theory of them being the one true Khalsa and deriving so much of their supporting rhetoric from this text is quite amusing.

The fact that you make the statement:

"How exactly did Bhai Sahib use semitic methodology, with reference to his writings of course. He has only quoted from the primary Sikh canonical writings when writing about Gurmat"

Clearly shows you are still unable to understand the point I am raising - I'll leave you to consider the comments again since you are clearly barking up the wrong tree at the moment (hint: several other posters here, who do not necessarily agree with me have managed to understand the underlying point - maybe read their comments).

[Niranjana]

"Irecall the reason for him getting kicked out of the panthwas printing saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without Raagmala?"

Yes, the as yet unanswered question from the Tapoban glory days is whether or not the Saroop of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that they house in Tapoban Gurdwara includes Raagmala Bani...

...a definative answer to this would make very interesting news.

[laalsingh]

Mithr, on 09 July 2008 - 11:06 PM, said:

T
But in his younger years, he didn't always have these beleifs. There was a time when he was a leading Sikh leader of the Malwa Sikhs. He did massive Parchaar in his day bringing many people from Malwa into Sikhi. He was also a social reformer, he would encourage girls to attend school, he would do massive parchar against smoking because at the time many people in Malwa would smoke Hukaas. But something happened along the way and he started having these strange views concearning religion. I'm not really sure of what his views on meat were.

His example is for us. Who ever Guru Jee wants to raise to the position of leader he can. But who ever goes away from Guru Sahib's Nazar, that person falls like ash. After Teja Singh Bhasour was excommunicated, no one paid any attention to him. He died in obscurity. We as Sikhs need to pray from out hearts to guru Jee that our views stay in tune with Gurmat and never get corrupted like what happened to Teja Singh Bhasour.

Before being in tune with Gurmat, we have to understand it. Maybe Teja Singh never understood Gurmat, otherwise he didn't have to omit Hari, Karishna or other Hindu names from Guru Granth.

[laalsingh]

How can 'Dhur ki bani' evolve? These pothis were held by different fake gurus or gurugadhis. These pothis can be easily copied from original writings. If somebody believe that Dhur ki Bani evolve, why evolution stopped after Tenth Master?
Anyway Tenth Master gave gurgaddi to Adi Granth. And that is Dhur ki bani.
Researchers had never and will never stop writing these papers for their own selfish agendas.

[singh2]

I agree with Mithar on Bhai sahib Bhai Randhir singh ji.
Though he took Amrit from Bhasaur but he disasscoiated himself
after Teja singh committed blasphemy.

Teja singh came to see Bhai sahib at his house but Bhai sahib refused
refused to see him as teja singh had been excommunicated from Panth.
They had not met for 29 years.

Bhai sahib was naam abhiasi and to say that he was influenced by western
thought amounts to lying.