133 replies to this topic

[N30 S!NGH]

This thread is dedicated for debate and discussion with the group who does not believe that Charitopakhyan is part of Sri Dasam Granth. I just wanted to remind the rules- one liner bold statements are not allowed especially against sri dasam granth. One must back up the claims with one puratan source or at least logical reasoning for debate to continue.

[Guru da Sikh]

Can somebody post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that we get from Cahritro Pakhyan's 404 chritars?

[N30 S!NGH]

That's a good way to start the debate, i will soon write it up.

[Xylitol]

Maskin ji did katha on this bani, will post it when I see it uploaded.

[valli singh]

to warn the Khalsa of the worldly moral pitfalls to be wary of, their subtleties and how to avoid them
thus they are essentially cautionary, character-building and didactic--they are not LITERAL or MIMETIC
which you people don't seem to understand so what's wrong with that,

even Shakespeare has done this in his plays by creating lewd characters such as the Gravediggers
for comedic and didactic purposes, same as the great Italian Opera Pagliacci

(not to mention 10 Charitars on the avoidence of intoxicants and alcohol)

PROVE TO ME THAT THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY LUST-INDUCING AND NOT DIDACTIC


you people have no understanding of poetic conventions and World Literature,
do you find the Purgatorio Cantos of Dante's Divine Comedy where the incestuous,
adulterous sins of damned souls are related and their punishments offensive?

CHARITRO PAKIYA IS THE SAME THING

Go read about the literary concept of the Carnivalesque
that is what Charitro Pakia is all about.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

valli singh, on Jun 9 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

to warn the Khalsa of the worldly moral pitfalls to be wary of, their subtleties and how to avoid them
thus they are essentially cautionary, character-building and didactic--they are not LITERAL or MIMETIC
which you people don't seem to understand so what's wrong with that,

even Shakespeare has done this in his plays by creating lewd characters such as the Gravediggers
for comedic and didactic purposes, same as the great Italian Opera Pagliacci

(not to mention 10 Charitars on the avoidence of intoxicants and alcohol)

PROVE TO ME THAT THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY LUST-INDUCING AND NOT DIDACTIC


you people have no understanding of poetic conventions and World Literature,
do you find the Purgatorio Cantos of Dante's Divine Comedy where the incestuous,
adulterous sins of damned souls are related and their punishments offensive?

CHARITRO PAKIYA IS THE SAME THING

Go read about the literary concept of the Carnivalesque
that is what Charitro Pakia is all about.

Which chariters says to avoid alcohol? What does Gurmat Maartund (Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha) say about charitropakhyan and Mahakaal? Are writings such as Carnivaleque, Purgatorio Cantos, Shakespeare, etc. work of 10th Paatshah also? Are we waiting to write them in Gurmukhi script to write Mukhvaak Paatshahi 10 on the heading? Please provide insight here. Thank you very much in advance for answering these questions. If you want to say naastic or whatever, thank you in advance for that too.

[valli singh]

Are you really that dense or

Do you know what an analogy is?

I was being allusive and putting Charitro Pakiyan in the context of
comparative World Literature.

That is a literary field where scholars compare themes and cautionary frameworks etc
across cultures.

you are quite a base and one dimensional thinker if you cannot note those similarities,

who on earth said to put them into Gurmukhi or add any signature to them?

Either you didn't understand the question or the examples given therein or

you seem to be reveling in ignorance because you don't have an answer
thus you are making baseless and nonsensical statements

IS CHARITRO-PAKIAN CAUTIONARY IN NATURE

IF NOT WHY DOES IT WARN US ABOUT THE WILES OF WOMEN?

saying that Guru Gobind Singh did not write Dante's Inferno (which is obvious unless your an imbecile) is not an answer and is plainly self-evident.

you're very welcome.

[shaheediyan]

Lol, shankavaadis are shankavaadis for a reason!

[Matheen]

lol!

[The Khalsa Fauj]

valli singh, on Jun 9 2009, 04:59 PM, said:

Are you really that dense or

Do you know what an analogy is?

I was being allusive and putting Charitro Pakiyan in the context of
comparative World Literature.

That is a literary field where scholars compare themes and cautionary frameworks etc
across cultures.

you are quite a base and one dimensional thinker if you cannot note those similarities,

who on earth said to put them into Gurmukhi or add any signature to them?

Either you didn't understand the question or the examples given therein or

you seem to be reveling in ignorance because you don't have an answer
thus you are making baseless and nonsensical statements

IS CHARITRO-PAKIAN CAUTIONARY IN NATURE

IF NOT WHY DOES IT WARN US ABOUT THE WILES OF WOMEN?

saying that Guru Gobind Singh did not write Dante's Inferno (which is obvious unless your an imbecile) is not an answer and is plainly self-evident.

you're very welcome.

This is what you need to get through to your brain. If someone can take writings of Poet Shyam, Raam and Kaal and put Paatshahi 10 on them and you get fooled by them, then how is it certain that you won't be fooled if someone wrote Paatshahi 10 on writings of these western writers after translating their literature into Gurmukhi? It shouldn't be hard to tell who is imbecile. Someone who says Poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal are Guru Gobind Singh Ji or someone who says Poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal are who they are whcih is poets. Also, keep your anger in check, it won't get you anywhere. If you can't keep anger in control after reading my post, how do you control your unit after reading charitropakhyan? Weird isn't it? Someone who can't tell the difference between Poet Shyam, Poet Raam, Poet Kaal and Guru Gobind Singh Ji is talking about literary field. Gurbani quotes below fit very well:

ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੀਤ ॥ ਭੁਖੇ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਘਰੇ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ ਮਖਟੂ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਫਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਏ ॥

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥ ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥ ੧੫੮॥

ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥

[N30 S!NGH]

The Khalsa Fauji,

Most of us here know that treh charitar is from panch tantar written by rishi munis, so save you energy to convince us its not written by sri guru gobind singh ji. We already know that because it belongs to Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji.

I put this question fwd to your freind - Guru Da Sikh, i m posing same question to you, its very important without proper discussion on this point we cannot go fwd in details:

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting or including previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? We already have proper chronology and puratan birs of sri dasam granth sahib to prove that. Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.



Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

[Kam1825]

"Someone who can't tell the difference between Poet Shyam, Poet Raam, Poet Kaal and Guru Gobind Singh Ji is talking about literary field."


Khalsa Fauj a quick question you like Prof Sahib Singh Ji's teeka for this reason i put this question to you

In Bhatt Sawais Prof Sahib Singh states that there isn't 17 bhatts but 11. Bhatts like Jalap writes under the name of Jal and Tal as well, and so on with the other bhatts as well. If the Bhatts can do this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then whey cant Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were the master of poets, the Jot of Guru Nanak Dev Ji write under different names as well as he allowed his bhatts to do so whilst in the fifth manifestation, Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.

[Mithar]

Why dont you guys (Guru Da Sikh and The Khalsa Fauj) first list why you think Charitro Pakhyan is not bani. The burdan of proof is on you. We already beleive it is bani. It is up to you to prove to us that it is not the krit of Guru Gobind Singh jee based on what you have learnt from Kala Afghana Sahib.

[shaheediyan]

Even if we hypothetically accept your theory that the poetry is of Kaal, Raam and Shyaam - they were all part of the Pvanja Kavi - who were a highly respected part of Guru Gobind Singh Maharajs entourage. Their thoughts and writing would have been in complete harmony with that of supreme Master, under whose divine gaze, this beautiful poetry would have been completed?

Looking at it this way, do you still have no regard for these works?

[valli singh]

Yes that's very logical,

I'm talking about NARRATIVE FRAMEWORKS you are dodging the question for the second time
by getting confused over AUTHORSHIP which Kam ji has kindly answered for you.

so lets try again for the third time:

IS CHARITRO-PAKIAN CAUTIONARY? IF NOT PROVE IT.

there's a difference between anger and moral outrage
and you have mistaken the later for the former.