I haven't had the time to answer valli's questions. I have been busy with other threads. I can't be in 7 threads at once.
Now I will disucss here show you how foolish these stories are. You guys are extracting morals by force from these stories. By that logic, morals can be extracted from porn movies also.
Quote
By the way, it isn't embarassing to say that Guru Ji got fooled by a prostitute as per Chariter 16 and Anoop Kuar as per chariters 21-23? It isn't embarassing to take someone's writing and write Paatshahi 10 on it when the names of writers are clearly mentioned?
Who is the king of Anandpur?
Who are Sikhs?
Who is the one known as Guru in the whole country and visited by everyone?
Who gives boons to Sikhs in Anandpur?
Who was Anandpur established by?
Where is Anandppur located?
Once you have answers to these, you will that that story is a clear cheap shot at Guru Gobind SIngh Ji. Even the pro Dasam GRanth mafia such as Padam, Virsa, Sher Singh, etc. and other guys say and have said. First go talk to all those guys and make a decision. When you peple want to quote par naaree kee sayj bhool supnay hoo na jaeou then it is said by Guru Gobind SIngh, other times the character is someone else? Do you guys have a clear stand on this?
Sikhs get morals by learning from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Let me give you a sample on how moral is given.
ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਨਰਹਰੀ ॥ ੧॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੬੩}
Par Dhan Par Daaraa Parharee || Taa Kai Nikat Bsai Narharee || 1||
God resides near a person who stays away from another’s wealth and spouse. 1.
If above quote from your Guru isn't going to convince you. Long stories of poet Shyam, Raam and Kaal have no chance. Especially when they write stuff such as below:
ਸੁਨਤ ਸਹਚਰੀ ਬਚਨ ਸਜਨ ਕੇ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਗਈ। ਜਿਮਿ ਤਿਮਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ ਤਹਾ ਲ੍ਯਾਵਤ ਭਈ। ਮਿਲਤ ਛੈਲਨੀ ਛੈਲ ਅਧਿਕ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਯੋ। ਹੋ ਭਾਤਿ ਭਾਤਿ ਕੀ ਕੈਫਨ ਨਿਕਟ ਮੰਗਾਇਯੋ। ੪। ਕਿਯਾ ਕੈਫ ਕੌ ਪਾਨ ਸੁ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਜੰਕ ਪਰ। ਭਾਤਿ ਭਾਤਿ ਤਨ ਰਮੇ ਬਿਹਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਨਰ। ਕੋਕ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਕੌ ਬਿਹਸਿ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਕੈ। ਹੋ ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚ ਕੰਧਨ ਪਰ ਹਾਥਨ ਡਾਰਿ ਕੈ। ੫। ਅਧਿਕ ਜੋਰ ਤਨ ਦੋਊ ਤਹਾ ਕ੍ਰੀੜਾ ਕਰੈ। ਮਨ ਮੈ ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ ਨ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ। ਲਪਟਿ ਲਪਟਿ ਕਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਸੁ ਛਿਨਿਕ ਨ ਛੋਰਹੀ। ਹੋ ਸਕਲ ਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੰਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੋ ਤਹਾ ਮਰੋਰਹੀ। ੬। ਭੋਗ ਕਰਤ ਤਰੁਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ। ਕਰਤ ਕੇਲ ਰਜਨਿਯਹਿ ਬਿਤਾਯੋ। ਪਹਿਲੀ ਰਾਤਿ ਬੀਤ ਜਬ ਗਈ। ਪਾਛਿਲ ਰੈਨਿ ਰਹਤ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ। ੭। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੯੩, ੫.੬, ੬੩}
Sunnat Sahcharee Bachan Sajjan Kay Greh Gaee| Jim Tim Taahe Parbodh Tahaa Leyaavat Bhaee| Millat Shailnee Shail Adhik Sukh Paaeyo| Ho Bhaant Bhaant Kee Kaifan Nikkat Mungaaeyo| 4| Keyaa Kaif Kau Paan Su Duhoo Parjunk Pur| Bhaant Bhaant Tun Rmay Behas Kar Naar Nur| Koke Shaastar Tay Mut Kau Behas Ouchaar Kai| Ho Aap Beech Kundhan Par Haathan Daar Kai| 5| Adhik Jore Tun Doaou Tahaa Kareerra Krai| Mun Mai Anand Na Kahoo Tay Drai| Lappat Lappat Kur Jaahe Su Shinnik Na Shorehee| Ho Sakkal Darap Kundarap Ko Tahaa Marorehee| 6| Bhoag Karat Tarunee Sukh Paayo| Karat Kail Rujneyahe Betaayo| Pahelee Raat Beet Jub Gaee| Paashil Raien Rahat Sudh Laee| 7|
Hearing the words of princess, her friend left for the house of princess’s boyfriend. Somehow, she convinced him to meet princess. Young princess felt lots of pleasure after meeting him. She ordered many types of liquor. 4. Both of them drank liquopr while sitting on the bed and had many types of sexual intercourse. They recited the teachings of Koka Shastra and hadsexual intercourse by placing their hands on shoulders of each other. 5. Then they started pushing hard when having sexual intercourse. They forgot about fear of others and enjoyed having sexual intercourse. They were clinging to each other and weren’t willing to leave each other for even an instance. They broke the ego of god of sexual desire. 6. Woman received lots of pleasure having sex and they spent the whole night doing it. Both of them thought of an idea when it was near sun rise. 7.
Quote
If you want to discuss any charitar, please post full charitar from this point like shaheediyan did if you want proper discussion if you refuse to do that and start nit picking this debate will not go anywhere.
I write a summary of the story because in the end, no one remembers the whole story but the summary. It is best to analyze the teaching from the summary. Not only that, the chariters are repetitive with useless lines which I will talk about later.
Quote
This is last request, if you planning to post any charitars now. Post the whole charitar then bold the parts you find questionable. Thats not a problem, but taking line or two out of full charitar and taking them out of context not a sensible way to debate. it's called guerrilla debating.
It wasn't a line or two. It was eight complete tukhs. Please read again. Show me where the word lundaa is used in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Lundaa isn't a civilized word. It is a word used in a profane manner. Correct word would have been indree or something like that.
Valli said these stories are supposed to be mimetic, didactive and prooving.
I have some questions:
1. You said these stories are mimetic. Who are these stories imitating? Real characters? Fake characters? Who? Who or what are they resembling in these stories?
2. You said these stories are didactic. Before we proceed further, lets take a look at definition of didactic based on an official dictionary.
http://www.merriam-w...ionary/didactic
1 a: designed or intended to teach b: intended to convey instruction and information as well as pleasure and entertainment <didactic poetry>
2: making moral observations
If we go by the first definition, it sure fits entertainment and pleasure purpose. Second definition says making moral observations. These stories just tell tales on what a woman did or what the king did or what bhoot prayt did. Other than that, morals of these stories are given at the end. Do you agree that these stories are entertaining and for pleasure?
3. You said these stories are proving. What are they proving? That women are bad and they can't be understood even by God? If yes, then I agree that this is what these stories are doing. They are taking cheap shots at God and women.
Once you have answered these questions, we will move forward with what you are saying.
Also, what would be an erotic story as per you? Please give example.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No we will discuss chariter which sheedi degh quoted:
Quote
There Raja Chiter Singh to the Minister, ‘Whatever you said, it has eliminated any treachery from my mind. ‘Whatever you tell me, it is like putting nectar into my ears.’(1)
Dohira
‘Concentrating on your mind, body and soul, Oh My Minister, I request you, ‘What ever number of Auspicious Chritars you know, relate them to me.’(2) There was one-eyed Raja whose woman was a pervert. (This is) how she enjoyed with her friend after putting coloured
powder in the eyes of the Raja.(3)
Chaupaee
‘With the approach of the spring, bloomed the hearts of the males and females. Every house was showered with bliss and they revelled in singing with clapping hands.(4) There was one female called Chaachar Mati who was pretty and endowed with a very slim body. There was one Raja named Mani Sen who he had a wife called Chaachar Mati (5)
(78)
When she saw a handsome acrobat, she felt as if she was shot by the Cupid arrow. All her mind, body and soul were subdued, and she became like an acquired slave.( 6)
Dohira
The songs were recited in every home and every home had dances the beats of the drums.(7)
There came the acrobat, who seemed to be the Raja of all the acrobats, And he, whose name was Navrang, was epitome of the Cupid.(8)
Chaupaee
Holy, the festival of colours was at full swing in the town, and every man and woman danced and sang. The old enjoyed with old and threw flowers on each other.(9)
Dohira
In the company of drums-beats, songs of Holy were Sung in every house. The harmonies were flowing at every door-step and music was report in all the households.(10) The damsels were singing the songs in unison and enacting plays, The music flowing out of flutes, trumpets and bongos was prevailing all over.(11)
Chaupaee
The males and the females were sharing the amusements. From both sides colours were sprinkled under the efficacy of music.(12)
Dohira
In the multitude of males, females and the damsels, The saffron colour apparels were predominant.(13) Every household was busy in playing Holy and singing jovially, The voices of bongos accompanied by the dances were emanating from eachhouse.(l4 ) That young man was entrapped by her looks, And the Rani, as well, was immediately entangled in his love.(l5) Every man and woman was savouring the songs of spring, When, suddenly, the dust-storm subdued the vision.(l6) Soon after the music was ensued the voices of the flutes started to emanate The melodies, accompanied with the drums, commenced to flow again.(17)
(79)
Chaupaee .
The sprinkling of colours became so intense that even the hand was not visible The Rani put colour in her husband’s eyes and blinded him(18) Dohira
He was already blind of one eye and other was shut with the colours too:
Becoming total blind, the Raja fell flat on the ground.( 19)
The Rani, then, called Navrang at that instant. She passionately kissed him and fully enjoyed.(20) By the time the Raja got up and cleared his vision, The Rani, after enjoying heart-fully made the acrobat to run away.(21)(1)
So now if we read the whole story carefully we see that the writer (Poet Raam) mentions the name of Chachar Mati twice for no apparent reason. He is just trying to make the story long which is one indication that this story isn't for morals but entertainment. He also mentions holy and colors several times which also wasn't needed. If we use logic, king fell to the ground just because he had color in his eye. How muc logic does this statement have? Also, no one answered how it is possible to have sexual enjoyment in public without anyone else seeing. There is not a King in the world that would have met another king without any guards around. Especially in the older times when kings were always looking for chances to take over kingdoms of other kings. Clearly this story doesn't fit the basics of history and logic so then how could it give morals when Mss. Mati was able to fulfill her wish and get away? Also, don't try to dodge the question about the quote I posted about 12 hours and lundaa. Was that needed in a moral story? I am sure it wasn't because I don't see anything like tria chariters in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If Sikhs didn't bhagats didn't need such sexual stories for morals for 700 years, they weren't needed after either and aren't needed now. No one really reads these stories for morals because they aren't. Like I said before, you can extract moral out of anything by imagining things. I still haven't gotten a clear answer if you guys agree that these stories aren't written by Guru Gobind SIngh Ji but poets Raam, Shyam and Kaal or do I need to make a poll for that too?
Quote
It shows how easy it is for one to deceive, and that one should not think that those infected with such a high level of kaam, make exceptions on holy/celebratory days.
Who was saying that anyways? Once again, making assumptions yourself and answering them yourself?
Quote
If it wasn't for the suppression of what really happened in society (good and bad) and the normality of sex, we wouldn't be living in an age where sex is advertised, celebrated, sung, watched etc etc.
How is sex suppressed in today's world when it is expressed widely on TV and other forms of media?
Quote
The many Gursikh, Sants, Academics, Theologians from 1700 to 1900 were obviously incapable of Gurmat thought, it took a Victorian education to 'see the light'!
Guru Ji, bhagats, sikhs and bhatts were incapabl from 1000 to 1708 so it took poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal to give morals to Sikhs? Lets see the results of morals from Dasam Granth between 1708 and 1900.
1) Maharaja Ranjit Singh indulging in bigamy and sodomy.
2) Sikh missals fighting each other for land
3) Jassa Singh Ramgaria killing daughter because she was a daughter. He must have read:
ਇਨ ਇਸਤ੍ਰਿਨ ਕੇ ਚਰਿਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ। ਸਜਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਨ੍ਯੋ ਇਨ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ। ੨੫। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੨੨, ੫.੫, ੯}
In Istreean Kay Chariter Apaaraa| Suj Pashtaaneyo In Kartaaraa| 25| 1|
The games of these women are beyond understanding. Even God is regretting after creating them. 25. 1.
Don't say I am posting single line because that is the final stanza of the story giving the moral or morals.
4) Statues of hindu devi devtas getting into Sikh Gurduaras
5) Hari cutting going on in front of Akaal Takht
6) Sikh missals joining mughals to attack other Sikh missals
7) Ranjit Singh bringing non Sikhs to control Sikh raaj
8) Banda Singh being turned on by so-called Tat Khalsa
9) And many other points which I forgot to mention
1
Mithar, on Jun 10 2009, 11:09 AM, said:
