78 replies to this topic

[Matheen]

In Finland, after being visited by a dodgy missionary, they changed the beginning of Ardas - the part from Chandi Di Vaar. Instead of Bhagauti, they said something else. Are they aslo going to remove 'Ram', 'HAr', Hari' etc from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? One line before mentioning 'Bhagauti', Guru Ji clearly states there is only 1- "Ik Oankaar Sri Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh".

These guys are lost, God help them.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Matheen, on Jun 9 2009, 06:00 AM, said:

In Finland, after being visited by a dodgy missionary, they changed the beginning of Ardas - the part from Chandi Di Vaar. Instead of Bhagauti, they said something else. Are they aslo going to remove 'Ram', 'HAr', Hari' etc from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? One line before mentioning 'Bhagauti', Guru Ji clearly states there is only 1- "Ik Oankaar Sri Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh".

These guys are lost, God help them.

Could you please show me a quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Bhagautee is used for God? Thank you very much.

[Matheen]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 9 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

Could you please show me a quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Bhagautee is used for God? Thank you very much.

Sure, on Ang 71, Ang 88 (x3), Ang 274 (x3), Ang 912, Ang 1348.

Also, Vaar41, Vaaran Bhai Gurdas.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Matheen, on Jun 9 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

Sure, on Ang 71, Ang 88 (x3), Ang 274 (x3), Ang 912, Ang 1348.

Also, Vaar41, Vaaran Bhai Gurdas.

Hello mittar!!!!

I asked where IT IS USED FOR GOD!

Lets not bring in Vaar # 41 because it isn't written by Bhai Gurdas that compiled Aad Granth Ji.
Vaar 41 is no credible by any means.

Next time also check if the quote is used for God or if the quote is used for worshipper of God meaning Bhagat.

Thank you for trying by going to Sikhitothemax and searching. However, it would have been better if you had spent the time understanding those quotes.

[singh2]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 9 2009, 07:31 PM, said:

Hello mittar!!!!

I asked where IT IS USED FOR GOD!

Lets not bring in Vaar # 41 because it isn't written by Bhai Gurdas that compiled Aad Granth Ji.
Vaar 41 is no credible by any means.

Next time also check if the quote is used for God or if the quote is used for worshipper of God meaning Bhagat.

Thank you for trying by going to Sikhitothemax and searching. However, it would have been better if you had spent the time understanding those quotes.

We need not give quote from SGGS ji to prove bhagauti is for God. As stated in Dasam granth sahib Bhagauti is sword and a symbolism for power of God.

It is also well described about Bhagauti in "Hum hindu nahin" written by Bhai kahan singh nabha. This book is in dilaogue form between a Hindu and a sikh. Hindu argues that Bhagauti in sikh ardas means Devi Durga. Sikh quotes from Chandi di Vaar to prove him wrong. Now these kala afghanis and missionaries are playing the role of fanatic Hindus.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

singh2, on Jun 9 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

We need not give quote from SGGS ji to prove bhagauti is for God. As stated in Dasam granth sahib Bhagauti is sword and a symbolism for power of God.

It is also well described about Bhagauti in "Hum hindu nahin" written by Bhai kahan singh nabha. This book is in dilaogue form between a Hindu and a sikh. Hindu argues that Bhagauti in sikh ardas means Devi Durga. Sikh quotes from Chandi di Vaar to prove him wrong. Now these kala afghanis and missionaries are playing the role of fanatic Hindus.

Bhai Kahan SIngh Nabha twisted many things in his book 'Hum Hindu Nahin' to prove that Sikhs are not Hindus. Other than that, read his Gurmat Maartund and see what he says about Charitropakhyan and Mahakaal. Thank you very much. If Guru Granth Shaib Ji is your Guru, you will be able to backup your claims with Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A claim is deemed manmat if it can't be backed up with quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

[Matheen]

@Randip Singh Ji:
Yup, that's correct about Afghanists.

Which translations did you use, and how do you know they are impeccable if you don't understand the original language? If you do, then why use translations?

Regards.

@The Khalsa Fauj:
Just shows how the same word can mean different things in different contexts. In the first Pauri of Chandi Di Var, it means shakti of Akaal Purkh.

What's wrong with Vaar 41, of Bhai Gurdas Singh?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Matheen, on Jun 9 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

@Randip Singh Ji:
Yup, that's correct about Afghanists.

Which translations did you use, and how do you know they are impeccable if you don't understand the original language? If you do, then why use translations?

Regards.

@The Khalsa Fauj:
Just shows how the same word can mean different things in different contexts. In the first Pauri of Chandi Di Var, it means Akaal Purkh.

What's wrong with Vaar 41, of Bhai Gurdas Singh?

Words can mean different things to an extent. Tha vaar 41 has many thing to talk about. We will discuss that some other time. I got other things to do as well. I rely on Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Bhagautee is feminine. God is Khasam, Mittar, Swami, Dosat, Akaal Purakh, Aad Purakh, Nirankaar, etc.

Not Khasaman, Mitaree, Swaman, Dostan, Naar, Akaal Naar, Aad Naar, Nirankaran, etc. so Bhagautee can never mean Akaal Purakh no matter how you slice it. It can mean sword but Sikhs aren't worshippers of mindless weapons. Worship of weapons is same as worhip of horses, cows, idols, moortees, etc. Sikh is worshipper of only Akaal Purakh.

[singh2]

Quote

Bhai Kahan SIngh Nabha twisted many things in his book 'Hum Hindu Nahin' to prove that Sikhs are not Hindus. Other than that, read his Gurmat Maartund and see what he says about Charitropakhyan and Mahakaal. Thank you very much. If Guru Granth Shaib Ji is your Guru, you will be able to backup your claims with Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A claim is deemed manmat if it can't be backed up with quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Khalsa fauj

You call yourself khalsa and yet condemn dasam bani. A sikh is that who follows both granths one as Guru and the other as a respectable scripture.

A khalsa is initiated with five banis and three of those are from Dasam granth. Three banis of a sikh's nitnem is from Dasam granth.

Do not mislead sangat by lies. Back up your false claims by references. here is what Bhai kahan singh nabha writes in gurmat martand

" A Brief History of Sri Dasam Granth " - Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha

In the year Samvat 1778 (1721 A.D.) i.e. thirteen years after Guru Gobind Singh ji's demise Mata Sundri ji appointed Bhai Mani Singh ji as Granthi of Darbar Sahib, Sri Amritsar. Bhai Mani Singh ji discharged his duty very efficiently and during his tenure compiled different books including volumes of Sri Guru Granth Sahiband a volume containing writings of Guru Gobind Singh ji. He took a lot pain to collect writing from poets and devout Sikhs and prepared A Granth of the Tenth Master, known as Dasvin Patshahi ka Granth.

Bhai Mani Singh ji attained martyrdom in Samvat 1795 (1738 A.D.) i.e. thirty years after the Guru Gobind Singh ji left this world. Thereafter the Sikhs chose to send the volume of Dasam Granth to Damdama Sahibfor perusal which was the seat of learning at that time and was known as Guru ki Kanshi.

Volume of this Dasam Granth was discussed in detail in the Khalsa Divan. There three views emerged. First: the entire volume be kept as such and be not split into different parts. Second: we should have oneGranth only which has been conferred guru ship by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself and this Granth be split into different books so that the learned, scholars, Gianis and students are able to study it according to their competency. Third: many said that it should be split into two parts, one containing sri mukhvak baneewhich enunciates the principles of the of Khalsa and the second volume should contain the history etc. Fourth: many said that the volumeprepared by Bhai Mani Singh ji should remain intact but certain deficiencies be removed, like searching missing portions etc .Fifth: many were of the view that the rest of the Granth be kept as such but the Chritras and eleven Hikayats, which could not be recited in the open divan and is more difficult for ladies, should be kept in another volume. Many more suggestions came but the gathering could not reach to any conclusion. Then Bhai Mehtab Singh Mirankotia came to the venue and said “I am going to punish Massa Ranghar for desecration of Sri Harimandir Sahib. If I come back alive after killing Massa Ranghar then this Granth should be preserved as such, and if I attain martyrdom then this should be split into different books”. Bhai Mahtab Singh returned safe after accomplishing the feat and the ' beer' of Dasam Granth remained intact.

Gurmat Martand, Vol. 2. Page 568

[singh2]

Kahlsa fauj writes

Quote

read his Gurmat Maartund and see what he says about Charitropakhyan and Mahakaal

Will you give us reference here. This is BIG, BIG lie. I have read the meanings of mahakal as done by Kahan singh ji Nabha. Is resorting to lies one of the main qualifications of anti dasam Granth brigade of heretics.

[singh2]

Khalsa fauj gives us funny lectures about bhagauti.

Fauj ji, Bhagauti is power of akal purakh. It is one of the attributes of akal purakh. Sikh theology very much believes in power of akal purakh.

If you visit any sikh takhat you can see the weapons there at main place. Moreover this power is endorsed by sikh gurus.

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥:

Aape sakataa aape surataa sakatee jagatu parovahi:

You Yourself are All-powerful, the Intuitive Knower and the Sakti; on which the whole world is strung

(sggs 1242).

[Sikh Answers]

Here is what Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha writes in Gurmat Martand part 2 on page 567

ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ
ਸਾਹਿਬ-ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਦਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ, ਜਿਸਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ ਨਾਮ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਹੈ, ਉਸਦੀ ਅਸਲਿਯਤ ਇਹ ਹੈ-ਕਾਵਯ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਸ਼ਾਂਤ ਵੀਰ ਰਸ ਆਦਿਕ ਰਸ ਪੂਰਤ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਰਚਨਾ ਆਪ ਲਿਖਦੇ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਰਬਾਰੀ 52 ਕਵੀਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰੰਤਰ ਲਿਖਵਾਇਆਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ…ਸੰਮਤ 1778 ਵਿਚ ਮਾਤਾ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਨੂੰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਹਰਿਮੰਦਰ ਦਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀ ਥਾਪਿਆ, ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਸੇਵਾ ਉਤਮ ਰੀਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਨਿਭਾਹੀ ਅਰ ਇਸ ਸਮੇ ਕਈ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਲਿਖੇ…ਇਸਤੋਂ ਭਿੰਨ ਇਕ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਦਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਸਾਗਰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੇ ਕੁਛ ਭਾਗ,ਜੋ ਯਤਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਕਵੀਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੱਥ ਲੱਗ ਸਕੇ ਏਕੱਤਰ ਕੀਤੇ… ਦਸਮੇਸ਼ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਵਤਾਰਾਦਿਕ ਦੀ ਕਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਕਿਤੇ ਕਿਤੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਸਿਧਾਂਤ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਸਨ, ਜਿਸ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਠਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਟਪਲਾ ਨਾ ਲੱਗੇ; ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਚੌਪਈ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਫ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ-‘ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਧਿਆਊਂ’॥ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਰਾਮਾਵਤਾਰ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ ਪਾਠ ਹੈ-‘ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥ ਅਰ ਚੌਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਥਾ ਦੇ ਮੁੱਢ ਆਪਣੀ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਭੁਮਿਕਾ ਲਿਖ ਕੇ ਹੋਰ ਭੀ ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ-‘ਜੋ ਚੌਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ॥ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤੁਮ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ! ਤਿਨਕ ਨ ਪਾਏ’॥…ਭਾਵੇਂ ਬੀੜਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਮੁਖ ਦੋ ਹੀ ਹਨ-ਇਕ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ, ਜਿਸਦਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਮ ਭਾਈ ਦੀਪ ਸਿੰਘ ਵਾਲੀ ਭੀ ਹੈ*, ਦੂਜੀ ਭਾਈ ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ ਜਿਸਨੂੰ ਖਾਸ ਬੀੜ ਭੀ ਸੱਦਦੇ ਹਨ। *ਕਿਉਂ ਕਿ ਬਾਬਾ ਦੀਪ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਈ ਕਾਪੀਆਂ ਕਰਾਈਆਂ ਸਨ”।

Regarding Bhagauti, one can read steek of Chandi Di Vaar written by him. It leaves no doubt that he believed in Dasam Granth. His son Bhagwant Singh spent 30 years studying Dasam Granth and wrote two important books.

[N30 S!NGH]

Good post bijla singh . Welcome to Sikhawareness forum bro !

[singh2]

The followers of kala afghani sect, missionaries and Darshan ragi have not seen the gates of insitiutes of higher learning.
By doing some correspondence course they become instantly preachers, interpreter of gurbani, historians and masters of sikh philosophy all combined in one man. This is impossible. For example kala afghana has studied upto 8 class in Urdu. he does not know Punjabi even. how can this man understand Dasam granth whose language is so complex.

Darshan singh Ragi is 10th standard. he can sing hymns from a paper in front of him. how can he preach sikh philosophy. To understand sikh scriptures one need to live a sikh life full of naam simran,humility and selfless service. All these people seriously lack this quality. they can mislead ignorant sikhs for sometime but they will fail in the end and vanish in history. Bani of Sikh Gurus will live forever.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

singh2, on Jun 9 2009, 07:57 PM, said:

The followers of kala afghani sect, missionaries and Darshan ragi have not seen the gates of insitiutes of higher learning.
By doing some correspondence course they become instantly preachers, interpreter of gurbani, historians and masters of sikh philosophy all combined in one man. This is impossible. For example kala afghana has studied upto 8 class in Urdu. he does not know Punjabi even. how can this man understand Dasam granth whose language is so complex.

Darshan singh Ragi is 10th standard. he can sing hymns from a paper in front of him. how can he preach sikh philosophy. To understand sikh scriptures one need to live a sikh life full of naam simran,humility and selfless service. All these people seriously lack this quality. they can mislead ignorant sikhs for sometime but they will fail in the end and vanish in history. Bani of Sikh Gurus will live forever.

Give me a place where I could upload scan from Gurmat Maartund. Attachment only gives me 161.09kb which isn't enough. There are several pages. Also, where does kala afgana comes from? When I was talking about Kahan Singh Nabha, I was talking about Mahakaal and Charitropakhyan. I will look for a place where I could upload the files to link them here.

Also, type up page 5 of Gurmat Maartund along with pages 15, 16 and 17.

You don't need to type them up because I scanned them and linked them.

Also:
Inder Singh? What happened to the debate challenge I gave you? Lamba is in New York. Tell him to debate.

Bijla Singh Ji, what happened to your debate with Gurpeet Singh Samra from Brampton?