189 replies to this topic

[The Khalsa Fauj]

singh2, on Jun 9 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

What i wrote is correct. you have so called mentors who distort sikh philosophy in their own atheist way. then the moderators back them up. That is not the forum to have -a healthy debate.

Sikhsangat or Discoversikhi are forums to have healthy debates? Where they just delete your post? How about you running to mods on discoversikhi to get me banned? Was that part of the healthy debates too? Also, you were going to show me a quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Mahakaal is used for GOD. Where is that quote? I have been waiting for two years. You also said Sikhism has nothing to do with Mohammed or Ramanand. What about that?

[N30 S!NGH]

The Khalsa Fauji,

What you think mahakaal means? Satan?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

N30 S!NGH, on Jun 9 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

The Khalsa Fauji,

What you think mahakaal means? Satan?

Mahakaal is a dude that loves liqor and cannabis. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha says that a Sikh of Mahakaal must drink liqor and cannabis as instructed by Dasam Granth. Scan from Gurmat Maartund is linked below:

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?qui...tp0&thumb=5

[N30 S!NGH]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 9 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Mahakaal is a dude that loves liqor and cannabis. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha says that a Sikh of Mahakaal must drink liqor and cannabis as instructed by Dasam Granth. Scan from Gurmat Maartund is linked below:

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?qui...tp0&thumb=5

Do you believe in vikayaran?

[singh2]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 10 2009, 02:05 AM, said:

Mahakaal is a dude that loves liqor and cannabis. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha says that a Sikh of Mahakaal must drink liqor and cannabis as instructed by Dasam Granth. Scan from Gurmat Maartund is linked below:

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?qui...tp0&thumb=5

Another lie. Charitras are in a dialogue form between a king and his minister. So any refrences in those cann't be interpreted as a teaching of dasam granth.

In Hindu mythology Mahakal is a reference to Lord Shiva. In Charitra 266 to which khalsa fauj seems to refer to deduce
mahakal. But in this charitra Shiv is refered as Rudar or shiva. For example Lady says to idol worshipper Brahmin

Tahan rudar aihan ke sri krishan aihain
Jahan bandh sri kal teko chale hain

( Will Hindu God shiva or krishna will come to your aid ?
when Lord of death will take you)

The lady is telling Brahmin not to have any faith in these demi Gods. She tells Brahmin about mahakal

Nahin jan jaee kachhu roop rekha

( It cann't be known about His color, image and residence)

So obviously mahakal is great kal or descructive name of God. This charitra shows trickery of the lady wherein she condemns the idol worshipper Brahmin.

Lastly this refrence of mahakal in the scanned page in no way defines mahakal as a Hindu deity. Meanings of mahakal is given by Bhai kahan singh ji Nabha in Mahan kosh. Read below

ਮਹਾਕਾਲ - (ਸੰਗਯਾ) (1) ਕਾਲ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ. ਯਮ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਆਦਿ ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੈ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ. ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ।ਪਾਰਭ੍ਰਹਮ।''ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ'' (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰ). (2) ਉਹ ਲੰਮਾ ਸਮਾਂ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਅਸੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦੇ।(3) ਸਮੇਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਹਰਤਾ ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਕਾਲ।...''ਗਯਾਨ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਗਯਾਤਾ ਮਹਾ ਬੁੱਧਿਤਾ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵ, ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾ ਕਾਲ ਹੌਂ'' (ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤ)

('ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼' ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਭਾ)

[singh2]

Quote

Sikhsangat or Discoversikhi are forums to have healthy debates? Where they just delete your post? How about you running to mods on discoversikhi to get me banned? Was that part of the healthy debates too? Also, you were going to show me a quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Mahakaal is used for GOD. Where is that quote? I have been waiting for two years. You also said Sikhism has nothing to do with Mohammed or Ramanand. What about that?

i do not know what you are talking about. But it is very obvious that mahakal is a refrence to God. God is a creator and destroyer also. It is kirtam nam of God. If God takes care of our upbringing , he is Gopal. If God brings death to us , he is Kal or Mahakal. Read Jaap sahib and you will know.

[laalsingh]

Mahakaal is another name for death (or being bound to time or Sargun aspect of Lord).
Mahakaal can also be called Shiv, because Shiv represents destructive face of trinity (creation, maintenance and destruction).

[The Khalsa Fauj]

laalsingh, on Jun 9 2009, 11:33 PM, said:

Mahakaal is another name for death (or being bound to time or Sargun aspect of Lord).
Mahakaal can also be called Shiv, because Shiv represents destructive face of trinity (creation, maintenance and destruction).

ਜਹਾ ਲੋਭੁ ਤਹ ਕਾਲੁ ਹੈ ਜਹਾ ਖਿਮਾ ਤਹ ਆਪਿ ॥ ੧੫੫॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੩੭੨}
Jahaa Lobh Tah Kaal Hai Jahaa Khimaa Tah Aap || 155||
Where there is greed, there is death (Kaal). Where there is forgiveness, there is God. 155.

ਤਿਥੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਸੰਚਰੈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ੬॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੫੫}
Thithai Kaal Na Sunchrai Joatee Joat Smaaye|| 6||
Kaal (death) doesn’t reach there; the light merges with The Light. 6.

ਕਾਲੁ ਅਕਾਲੁ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਕੀਨ੍‍ਾ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਬਧਾਵਨੁ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੇ ਅੰਤੇ ਮੁਕਤੇ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਨੁ ॥ ੨॥ ੬॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੦੪}
Kaal Akaal Khasam Kaa Keenhaa Eh Parpunch Badhavan || Kahe Kabeer Tay Nar Untay Muktay Jinh Hirdai Raam Rsaaen || 2|| 6||
Death is the creation of Timeless Husband Lord. This creation is just a drama for God. Says Kabeer, those who have the master of delicacies, God, in their hearts, they are emancipated in the end. 2. 6.

Are you a Sikh of the creation or the creator? Choice is yours.

Quote

i do not know what you are talking about. But it is very obvious that mahakal is a refrence to God. God is a creator and destroyer also. It is kirtam nam of God. If God takes care of our upbringing , he is Gopal. If God brings death to us , he is Kal or Mahakal. Read Jaap sahib and you will know.

Kirtam means made up, fake, etc. We don't recite made up or fake names. We recite Sat Naam as given in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ ੧੦੮੨}

ਆਪਣੇ ਲਈ ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਆਪਣੀ ਜੀਭ ਤੋਂ ਕਥ ਲਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਰੱਬ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ। ‘ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ’ ਦੀ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੱੁਢ ਕਦੀਮ ਤੋਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸੱਚਾ ਹੈ।

[N30 S!NGH]

Can someone post jaap sahib stanza where it talks about mahakaal? That should seal the debate.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

N30 S!NGH, on Jun 9 2009, 11:42 PM, said:

Can someone post jaap sahib stanza where it talks about mahakaal? That should seal the debate.

Let me post Guru Granth Sahib Ji quote to seal the debate.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਜਪਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਲਾਲੁ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤੂ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਖਾਈ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਇਓ ॥ ਬਡੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੨॥੧੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 885-886}

ਪਦਅਰਥ: ਤੂੰ ਜੀਵਹਿ—ਤੂੰ ਜੀਊਂਦਾ ਰਹੇਂਗਾ, ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਰਹੇਗਾ। ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲੁ—ਭਿਆਨਕ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ। ੧। ਰਹਾਉ।

ਕੋਟਿ—ਕ੍ਰੋੜਾਂ। ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ—ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਭਟਕ ਭਟਕ ਕੇ। ਆਇਓ—ਤੂੰ (ਇਸ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ) ਆਇਆ ਹੈਂ। ਵਡੈ ਭਾਗਿ—ਵੱਡੀ ਕਿਸਮਤ ਨਾਲ। ਪਾਇਓ—ਤੂੰ ਹਾਸਲ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ। ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗੁ—ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸਾਥ।੧।

ਉਧਾਰੁ—(ਕ੍ਰੋੜਾਂ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਤੋਂ) ਪਾਰ—ਉਤਾਰਾ। ਬਾਬਾ—ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ—ਨਾਨਕ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।

ਅਰਥ: ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਗੋਬਿੰਦ (ਦਾ ਨਾਮ) ਜਪਿਆ ਕਰ, ਸੋਹਣੇ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿਆ ਕਰ। ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਕਰ, (ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰੇਂਗਾ) ਤੈਨੂੰ ਉੱਚਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਰਹੇਗਾ। ਭਿਆਨਕ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ (ਤੇਰੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ) ਫਿਰ ਕਦੇ ਮੁਕਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕੇਗੀ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! (ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਕਿਸਮਾਂ ਦੇ) ਕ੍ਰੋੜਾਂ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕ ਕੇ (ਹੁਣ ਤੂੰ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਵਿਚ) ਆਇਆ ਹੈਂ, (ਤੇ, ਇਥੇ) ਵੱਡੀ ਕਿਸਮਤ ਨਾਲ (ਤੈਨੂੰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸਾਥ ਮਿਲ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ।੧।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਨਾਨਕ (ਤੈਨੂੰ) ਇਹ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ-ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ (ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਤੋਂ) ਪਾਰ-ਉਤਾਰਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ।੨।੧੧।

[laalsingh]

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Are you a Sikh of the creation or the creator? Choice is yours.

As per your view of Gurmat, is Creator separate from creation?

Yes, Mahakaal is mentioned by Fifth Master as death.
ਜਪਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਲਾਲੁ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤੂ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਖਾਈ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲੁ ॥੧॥
But another name for Mahakaal, Shiv (be carefull, it is not Mahesh) has been mentioned many times as consciousness of Lord's Sargun saroop. Same Shiv which Dasam Patshah is addressing to in ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰੁ shabad appears on panna 21, 163, 291, 332, 873, 887 and many times more.
So Khalsa ji, what is wrong if Shiv or Mahakal (Sargun saroop of Nirgun Lord) is addressed in Dasam Patshah's writings?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

laalsingh, on Jun 10 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

As per your view of Gurmat, is Creator separate from creation?

Yes, Mahakaal is mentioned by Fifth Master as death.
ਜਪਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਲਾਲੁ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤੂ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਖਾਈ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲੁ ॥੧॥
But another name for Mahakaal, Shiv (be carefull, it is not Mahesh) has been mentioned many times as consciousness of Lord's Sargun saroop. Same Shiv which Dasam Patshah is addressing to in ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰੁ shabad appears on panna 21, 163, 291, 332, 873, 887 and many times more.
So Khalsa ji, what is wrong if Shiv or Mahakal (Sargun saroop of Nirgun Lord) is addressed in Dasam Patshah's writings?

Creator is the creator of creation.

As said before, you definition of sargun is based on vedant mat which is causing problems. Sargun means the one who is sarab srayst meaning great of all or most sublime.

Other than that, Gurbani says:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ ੧॥ {Page 283}

Also, Shiva doesn't mean Shiv in Chandi Charier. Shows you haven't read Chandi Chariter with understanding. Why are you guys debating a granth none of you have actually read from head to toe?

[laalsingh]

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Creator is the creator of creation.

Question again, is Creator separate from creation or creation part of Creator Himself?

[singh2]

laalsingh, on Jun 10 2009, 06:09 AM, said:

Question again, is Creator separate from creation or creation part of Creator Himself?

I think khalsa fauj does not understand this. But Gurbani is very clear.


ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥
ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥:

Tohee mohee mohee tohee antar kaisaa.
Kanak katik jal trang jaisaa ||1||:

You are me, and I am You—what is the difference between us?
We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves ||1||

ang 93

[singh2]

In jaap sahib Guru sahib writes

tav sarab nam kathe kavan karam nam barnat sumat

Who can express all your names
That is why wise men have described only your functional names

Jaap sahib , Dasam granth

So all the names given to God are functional names be it Ram , Gopal, Muru, Kal or Maha kal.