189 replies to this topic

[The Khalsa Fauj]

singh2, on Jun 10 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

In jaap sahib Guru sahib writes

tav sarab nam kathe kavan karam nam barnat sumat

Who can express all your names
That is why wise men have described only your functional names

Jaap sahib , Dasam granth

So all the names given to God are functional names be it Ram , Gopal, Muru, Kal or Maha kal.

Show me Guru Granth Sahib Ji quote where Kaal or Mahakaal is used for God. What is your definition of functional names? Any names describing actions that occur? Kaal is death, mahakaal is an even worse death, spiritual death and Gurbani says to stay away from Mahakaal. Why would Guru Ji tell us to stay away from Mahakaal if it is God or an attribute of God? Clearly, you are just making general statements to proveyourself. How does God get 4 arms since God doesn't have any attributes? Read bachitter natak which says that God has 4 arms. Quote is chatur baah chaarung. Look it up.

Quote

I think khalsa fauj does not understand this. But Gurbani is very clear.


ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥
ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥:

Tohee mohee mohee tohee antar kaisaa.
Kanak katik jal trang jaisaa ||1||:

You are me, and I am You—what is the difference between us?
We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves ||1||

ang 93

You are the one who doens't understand. That quote is talking about the union betweent he soul and God. It has nothing to do with physical attributes. Any time you say God has arms or grinding teeth, you go against Mool Mantar's philosophy of Nirankaar, Akaal Moorat.

[singh2]

Quote

You are the one who doens't understand. That quote is talking about the union betweent he soul and God. It has nothing to do with physical attributes. Any time you say God has arms or grinding teeth, you go against Mool Mantar's philosophy of Nirankaar, Akaal Moorat.

Khalsa fauji

You are still not understanding. Soul is creation and God is creator. Is soul not a part of parm atma? Then where is the difference.

Here is another

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥:
khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rahiou srab thaa(n)ee:

The Creation is in the Creator (God), and the Creator is in the Creation,
totally pervading and permeating all places

ang 1350

[amardeep]

Khalsa fauj you should start to study the concept of nirgun, sargun and avatarvaad.. What you say makes no sense if we compare it to the shabads in Gurbani:

Quote

How does God get 4 arms since God doesn't have any attributes? Read bachitter natak which says that God has 4 arms. Quote is chatur baah chaarung. Look it up.

O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. ||Pause||
Set aside your greed and worldly ways.
Set aside sexual desire, anger and egotism. ||2||


If God does'nt have any attributes then why does Gurbani say this:

The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.
Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.
Your body is so precious, cast in gold.
His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.
You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful. ||7||
Your walk is so graceful, and Your speech is so sweet.
You coo like a songbird, and your youthful beauty is alluring.
Your youthful beauty is so alluring; it pleases You, and it fulfills the heart's desires.
Like an elephant, You step with Your Feet so carefully; You are satisfied with Yourself.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

amardeep, on Jun 10 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

Khalsa fauj you should start to study the concept of nirgun, sargun and avatarvaad.. What you say makes no sense if we compare it to the shabads in Gurbani:


O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. ||Pause||
Set aside your greed and worldly ways.
Set aside sexual desire, anger and egotism. ||2||


If God does'nt have any attributes then why does Gurbani say this:

The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.
Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.
Your body is so precious, cast in gold.
His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.
You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful. ||7||
Your walk is so graceful, and Your speech is so sweet.
You coo like a songbird, and your youthful beauty is alluring.
Your youthful beauty is so alluring; it pleases You, and it fulfills the heart's desires.
Like an elephant, You step with Your Feet so carefully; You are satisfied with Yourself.

Those aarth are wrong. You are are talking about the Sohnay Nakh Jin Lamray Vaalah shabad.
I would love to post aarths of that shabad here but I don't want to release someone's work before it is published. The book should be out in about 40 days so just be patient or watch video by Gyani Baldev Singh by going to www.google.com and typing in Gyani Baldev Singh.

Let me link them below:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=22...94541&hl=en

You can watch the related videos from the related links.

If we go by the aarths that are posted, whole mool mantar gets proven wrong. Gurbani aarths don't conradict so proper aarths must be done. You might also be thinking about posting shabad from Pg. 1082 but aarths of that shabad will also be in the book by Gyani Baldev Singh. This book will be released soon as it take time for shipment to arrive in ship. You can get the Toronto buddies to post the translations here when the book comes out. You will know that the aarths above are totally wrong.


Gurmat rejects avtaarvaad and I already told you what sargun means. Sargun means sarab srayst meaning most sublime or greatest of all.

[amardeep]

So when the shabads says God is Sargun and nirgun it means he is the least sublime and the most sublime?? Those shabads make perfect sense and are non-contradictory in relation to avatarvaad..

[Xylitol]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 10 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

If we go by the aarths that are posted, whole mool mantar gets proven wrong.

How does it get proven wrong? Show us.

[singh2]

Xylitol, on Jun 10 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

How does it get proven wrong? Show us.

Do not believe what he says. Mod's edit: No personal attacks please.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Xylitol, on Jun 10 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

How does it get proven wrong? Show us.

Gurbani says:

Roop Na Raikh Na Rung Kish Treh Guon Tay Prabh Bhin || Tishe Boojhaaye Naankaa Jis Hovay Suparsun || 1 || {Page 283 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}

Isn't 4 arms a roop? In order to have 4 arms, there must be dayh. Gurbani says:

Dayh Na Nayh Na Gayh Na Neettaa Maaya Mutt Kahaa Lao Gaarhu || Shattarr Na Pattar Na Chaour Na Chaavan Bahttee Jaatt Ridai Na Bechaarhu|| {Page 1388 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}

Burn Chehan Naahe Mukh Na Maasaaraa || Kahan Na Jaaee Khail Tuhaaraa || {Page 746 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}

I don't blame you guys for believing what you do about God because the aarths that have been given to us by derawala don't do justice to truth. There will be a book released in future discussing many of these shabads.

Let me post the Table of Contents mentioning which shabads are translated in the book. The title of the book is Pandit Mulla Jo Likh Deeaa Shaad Chlay Hum Kashoo Na Leeaa.

ਆਰੰਭਕਾ..........................................................................
..........ੜੀ
ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਨਾਮਾ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਉਚਰੈ .......................................................... ੧
ਬਾਬਾ ਫਿਰ ਮਕੇ ਗਯਾ.....................................................................੮
ਨਾਮਾ ਛੀਂਬਾ ਆਖੀਐ...................................................................੧੦
ਹਸਤ ਖੇਲਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਦੇਹੁਰੇ ਆਇਆ ......................................................੧੨
ਮੋ ਕਉ ਤੂੰ ਨ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਤੂ ਨ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ .................................................. ੧੬
ਪਾੜ ਪੜੋਸਣਿ ਪੂਛਿ ਲੇ ਨਾਮਾ ..............................................................੨੦
ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ਪੂਛੈ ਸੁਨੁ ਬੇ ਨਾਮਾ.............................................................੨੮
ਦੂਧੁ ਕਟੋਰੈ ਗਡਵੈ ਪਾਨੀ ....................................................................੫੨
ਕਰਿ ਅਬਦਾਲੀ ਭੇਸਵਾ.....................................................................੫੯
ਧਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਓ ਰਾਮ ਬੇਨੁ ਬਾਜੈ .............................................................. ੬੪
ਜਉ ਗੁਰਦੇਉ ਸਿਹਜ ਨਿਕਸਾਈ ........................................................੭੧
ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਜੀ ........................................................................੭੬
ਨਾ ਤੂ ਆਵਹਿ ਵਸਿ ....................................................................੮੨
ਮੇਰੀ ਬਾਂਧੀ ਭਗਤੁ ਛਡਾਵੈ ...............................................................੮੪
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ..............................੮੬
ਤੇਰੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ .........................................................੯੧
ਅਪਨੇ ਛੂਟਨ ਕੋ ਜਤਨੁ ਕਰਹੁ .......................................................... ੯੩
ਸੁਨਹੁ ਜਿਠਾਨੀ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਦਿਰਾਨੀ ........................................................ ੯੮

ਮੇਰੀ ਪਟੀਆ ਲਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ.......................................... ੧੦੩
ਆਪੇ ਦੈਤ ਲਾਇ ਦਿਤੇ....................................................................੧੧੨
ਸੰਡਾ ਮਰਕਾ ਜਾਇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ................................................................੧੧੭
ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਪਠਾਏ ਪੜਨ ਸਾਲ ..........................................................੧੨੨
ਮੇਰੀ ਪਟੀਆ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੇਹੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ............................................... ੧੨੭
ਗੰਗ ਗੁਸਾਇਨਿ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰ .......................................................... ੧੩੭
ਭੁਜਾ ਬਾਂਧਿ ਭਿਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਡਾਰਿਓ..........................................................੧੪੦
ਰਾਜਨ ਕਉਨੁ ਤੁਮਾਰੈ ਆਵੈ ...............................................................੧੪੫
ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਆ ਉਤਮ ਪਦਵੀ ਪਾਇ ........................................੧੫੧
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ..........................................................੧੫੪
ਆਇਆ ਸੁਣਿਆ ਬਿਦਰ ਦੇ .............................................................੧੬੨
ਅਜਾਮਲ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਕੀਨੀ.........................................................੧੭੪
ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ.............................................................੧੮੧
ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ..................................................੧੮੪
ਪੁਤˆØੀ ਗੰਢੁ ਪਵੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ.................................................................. ੨੦੨
ਬਿਧਵਾ ਕਸ ਨ ਭਈ ਮਹਤਾਰੀ.......................................................੨੦੯
ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ........................................................੨੧੪

[N30 S!NGH]

The Khalsa Fauji,

I understand what you are trying to say, i wanted to know how do you feel having debate via books? I understand hard copy books requires quite bit of funding but now days we live in day and age where one can easily create a e book- pdf format.

I still think debates via book is best. Video/audio debate will only work with neutral people being moderator catching any personal attacks or off-topics, sort of soccer referee observing everything very closely and whistle for anyone who is breaking the rules of debate.

on a side note: what you think about video debate between inderjit ghagha vs kulbir singh? did u like the settings? the tones from both parties? was it one sided? any off-topics you noticed?

[Guru da Sikh]

amardeep, on Jun 10 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

Khalsa fauj you should start to study the concept of nirgun, sargun and avatarvaad.. What you say makes no sense if we compare it to the shabads in Gurbani:


O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. ||Pause||
Set aside your greed and worldly ways.
Set aside sexual desire, anger and egotism. ||2||


If God does'nt have any attributes then why does Gurbani say this:

The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.
Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.
Your body is so precious, cast in gold.
His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.
You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful. ||7||
Your walk is so graceful, and Your speech is so sweet.
You coo like a songbird, and your youthful beauty is alluring.
Your youthful beauty is so alluring; it pleases You, and it fulfills the heart's desires.
Like an elephant, You step with Your Feet so carefully; You are satisfied with Yourself.

You call yourself a Sikh, yet you are willing to twist the meaning of only one line at a time from Gurbani to prove your point instead of analyzing the whole shabad.

Here is a simple guide for you to understand Gurbani. You should normally start with one or two lines ending with Rahao. This gives you the central idea of the Shabad. Once you get the central idea, the rest of Shabad Gyan revolves around that central idea. If you are unable to make sense of a shabad in that way, then you should read the preceding and the following shabads to get more detailed meaning of the shabad. Your interpretation of the shabad or any lines MUST NOT AT ALL TIMES violate the basic analyses of Mool Mantar.

Now getting back to your lack of knowledge, click on the following link http://www.gurugrant...rpan2/0324.html and read the meaning of the complete shabad and while you are at it enlighten yourself with a few more shabads preceding the one you quoted from Kabir ji Gauri. If the Pad Arth says Four Arm God, Prof. Sahib Singh ji never uses the word in his analyses. That is because if you folks were to read the Bhaav Arth, especially the NOTE at the bottom of the shabad, then you would have definitely noticed that Prof. ji went on to relate this Four Arm God to an idol (Murti). If you can focus for a second or two, you will notice that these shabads are being addressed to the Jogi, Sadhus, and Brahmins of Banaris, from where called Nirmala Panth started.

Regarding your second reference, you should follow the same rules listed above and read (band 7) of the shabad with the note inside the brackets, to gain some knowledge about Gurbani. Here is the link:
http://www.gurugrant...rpan2/0567.html

Mod's edit

Based on your analyzes, I am NOT surprised at all that you boys will interpret (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as GOD himself.

It’s only here I agree with N30 Singh that the wounded Lion is more dangerous with the word wounded being replaced with Pretentious, of course!

[N30 S!NGH]

Guru Da Sikh,

you wrote:

Quote

Based on your analyzes, I am NOT surprised at all that you boys will interpret (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as GOD himself.

No one has interpreted all these labels as god himself but attributes of god. Actually you just contradicted yourself when you accuse of others that they are using labels of (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as God but you said - god himself which implies you yourself bind god as masculine entity.

[singh2]

Quote

Based on your analyzes, I am NOT surprised at all that you boys will interpret (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as GOD himself.

Give as refrence from dasam granth wherein the above named are referred as God? Do not beat about the bush and do not run away. Give refrences.

[Guru da Sikh]

N30 S!NGH, on Jun 10 2009, 10:58 PM, said:

Guru Da Sikh,

you wrote:



No one has interpreted all these labels as god himself but attributes of god. Actually you just contradicted yourself when you accuse of others that they are using labels of (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as God but you said - god himself which implies you yourself bind god as masculine entity.

It’s NOT MY INTERPRETATION. Even MoolMantar tells you the same (Karta NOT Karti, Purkh NOT Mayee).

I am sure if you were to search Gurbani you will find various shabads where Gurbani refers to GOD HIMSLEF in Masculine entity. Look for the words ‘Khasam Hamara’.

Please DON’T tell me now that Guru ji made a mistake.

Just to help your search, look in Sri Guru Granth Sahib: (Page 212 ) aiso hai rae khasam hamaaraa || Such is my Lord and Master (Page 376 ) avinaasee avigath agochar sadhaa salaamath khasam hamaaraa ||1|| rehaao || Imperishable, Unshakable, Unapproachable and forever safe and sound is my Husband Lord (NOT WIFE QUEEN). ||1||Pause|| (Page 384 ) anadh binodhee khasam hamaaraa ||3|| My Husband Lord is blissful and playful. ||3||

If you need more proof, I can post more.

Is Mahakal feminine?

[laalsingh]

Quote

I am sure if you were to search Gurbani you will find various shabads where Gurbani refers to GOD HIMSLEF in Masculine entity.

ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤਾ ॥ Panna 103
ਜਿਉ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਮਾਤਾ ਸੰਮਾਰੇ ॥ Panna 105
ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ ॥ Panna 250
Who is ਮਾਤਾ here?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

laalsingh, on Jun 11 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤਾ ॥ Panna 103
ਜਿਉ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਮਾਤਾ ਸੰਮਾਰੇ ॥ Panna 105
ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਾ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ ॥ Panna 250
Who is ਮਾਤਾ here?

Laalsingh? Apnee akll daa devaalaa keo kad-daa?
That quote says Mayraa Maataa. Not mayree maataa.
Mayraa is masculine unless you are a bhaiyaa.
Bhaiyas speak the opposite.
They will say, "Sardar Jee! Kee Kardee Haigee?"
and say, "Bibi Ji! Kee Kardaa Haigaa?'

However, since it is mayraa maataa it is masculine though.