189 replies to this topic

[laalsingh]

Quote

Laalsingh? Apnee akll daa devaalaa keo kad-daa?

So called Khalsa ji, you may have 'akll', but I don't have any akll, only His.

Quote

Mayraa is masculine unless you are a bhaiyaa.

You get hyper whenever your ego hurts a little and starts calling names. I don't mind being called bhayaa or kaala or chura or whatever you want.

And since when 'maata' is masculine? You call her ਮੇਰਾ ਜਾਂ ਮੇਰੀ, it doesn't matter.

ਪੰਨਾ 74, ਸਤਰ 5
ਬੋਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦਾ ॥
Is ਬੋਲੀ masculine? but still called ਦਾ. As per your definition, what were Gurus then? As per you, shouldn't it be ਬੋਲਾਈ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦੀ?
What about ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ?
ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥ Panna 479
Isn't ਮੂਰਤਿ faminine in this tuk?
ਪੰਨਾ 596, ਸਤਰ 13
ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਏਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਟਕਸਾਲਾ ॥੧॥ Panna 596
Yours is the one and only form of the entire universe; Your mouth is the mint to fashion all. ||1||

[randip singh]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 11 2009, 06:30 AM, said:

Laalsingh? Apnee akll daa devaalaa keo kad-daa?
That quote says Mayraa Maataa. Not mayree maataa.
Mayraa is masculine unless you are a bhaiyaa.
Bhaiyas speak the opposite.
They will say, "Sardar Jee! Kee Kardee Haigee?"
and say, "Bibi Ji! Kee Kardaa Haigaa?'

However, since it is mayraa maataa it is masculine though.

Good point.

[Guru da Sikh]

laalsingh, on Jun 11 2009, 01:51 AM, said:

So called Khalsa ji, you may have 'akll', but I don't have any akll, only His.

You get hyper whenever your ego hurts a little and starts calling names. I don't mind being called bhayaa or kaala or chura or whatever you want.

And since when 'maata' is masculine? You call her ਮੇਰਾ ਜਾਂ ਮੇਰੀ, it doesn't matter.

ਪੰਨਾ 74, ਸਤਰ 5
ਬੋਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦਾ ॥
Is ਬੋਲੀ masculine? but still called ਦਾ. As per your definition, what were Gurus then? As per you, shouldn't it be ਬੋਲਾਈ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦੀ?
What about ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ?
ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥ Panna 479
Isn't ਮੂਰਤਿ faminine in this tuk?
ਪੰਨਾ 596, ਸਤਰ 13
ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਏਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਟਕਸਾਲਾ ॥੧॥ Panna 596
Yours is the one and only form of the entire universe; Your mouth is the mint to fashion all. ||1||

Bayeee ji, Devaala tan niklya hoya !

Bayee Laal Sian, thora bahut par tan lea kar, evenhe kuji vichon banta chak ke bhaj pena ate kehan lag pena key heera labh leya! Anvain saaryan da tam kharaab kari jana

Please read Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s analysis and you would have never made this claim.

[N30 S!NGH]

Quote

No one has interpreted all these labels as god himself but attributes of god. Actually you just contradicted yourself when you accuse of others that they are using labels of (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as God but you said - god himself which implies you yourself bind god as masculine entity.

It’s NOT MY INTERPRETATION. Even MoolMantar tells you the same (Karta NOT Karti, Purkh NOT Mayee).

I am sure if you were to search Gurbani you will find various shabads where Gurbani refers to GOD HIMSLEF in Masculine entity. Look for the words ‘Khasam Hamara’.

Please DON’T tell me now that Guru ji made a mistake.

Just to help your search, look in Sri Guru Granth Sahib: (Page 212 ) aiso hai rae khasam hamaaraa || Such is my Lord and Master (Page 376 ) avinaasee avigath agochar sadhaa salaamath khasam hamaaraa ||1|| rehaao || Imperishable, Unshakable, Unapproachable and forever safe and sound is my Husband Lord (NOT WIFE QUEEN). ||1||Pause|| (Page 384 ) anadh binodhee khasam hamaaraa ||3|| My Husband Lord is blissful and playful. ||3||

If you need more proof, I can post more.

Is Mahakal feminine?

Ever heard of metaphor? If you bother reading mool mantar carefully- sidhant is totally laid out when maharaj says: ajooni. God does not take birth. Therefore, god cannot be he or she. It's only attributes of God which are sometimes masculine or sometimes feminine and sometimes both. You binded god yourself but using "him" . One cannot say god is him or her but rightly say- god's attributes can be pursh/purkh or ishtri.

[shaheediyan]

The Khhasam metaphor is derived from Sufi thought, Guru Sahiban adopted this as one of many well languages (religious) to reach out to the populace.

Male/female are material Sarguna attributes, how can Ajooni Nirankaar Parmatma be limited by gender?

In Shahee-Shahaan-Shah Guru Gobind Singhs Jaap Sahib we find:

ਨਮੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਿਆਤਾ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥੫੨॥

Oh, I just remembered, you will probably say that Jaap Sahib is not Gurbani or is An-Tie Gurmat or something, so here you go.

Here is the perfect tuk from Aad Guru for you to do abhyaas and vichaar on:

ਭੂਲਹਿ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੂੰ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

Guru Arjun Dev Ji Maharaj

[Kaljug]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 10 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

Show me Guru Granth Sahib Ji quote where Kaal or Mahakaal is used for God. What is your definition of functional names? Any names describing actions that occur? Kaal is death, mahakaal is an even worse death, spiritual death and Gurbani says to stay away from Mahakaal. Why would Guru Ji tell us to stay away from Mahakaal if it is God or an attribute of God? Clearly, you are just making general statements to proveyourself. How does God get 4 arms since God doesn't have any attributes? Read bachitter natak which says that God has 4 arms. Quote is chatur baah chaarung. Look it up.



You are the one who doens't understand. That quote is talking about the union betweent he soul and God. It has nothing to do with physical attributes. Any time you say God has arms or grinding teeth, you go against Mool Mantar's philosophy of Nirankaar, Akaal Moorat.

Look up metaphor, analogy, and simile in a dictionary or take a course in basic literary criticism, because these are used many times in bani.

Quote

Why are you guys debating a granth none of you have actually read from head to toe?

Does a granth have a head and toes, then?

Regards,
K.

[laalsingh]

Quote

Bayee Laal Sian, thora bahut par tan lea kar, evenhe kuji vichon banta chak ke bhaj pena ate kehan lag pena key heera labh leya! Anvain saaryan da tam kharaab kari jana

You described me perfectly. Gurbani is like heera found for me.
Is ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ famine or masculine? You already tam kharaab calling people names and slandering banis. I think explaining mool mantar to kid like me wo'nt be waste of time.
As per Bhai Sahib singh
ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ = ਸ਼ਬਦ 'ਮੂਰਤਿ' ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ ਹੈ.

N3O said almost everything what can be said about this famine/masculine issue

Quote

Ever heard of metaphor? If you bother reading mool mantar carefully- sidhant is totally laid out when maharaj says: ajooni. God does not take birth. Therefore, god cannot be he or she. It's only attributes of God which are sometimes masculine or sometimes feminine and sometimes both. You binded god yourself but using "him" . One cannot say god is him or her but rightly say- god's attributes can be pursh/purkh or ishtri.

[Balbir Singh]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 10 2009, 03:54 AM, said:

ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲੁ—ਭਿਆਨਕ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤ।

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and The Khalsa Fauj Jee!

May I ask if you have ever experienced Mahaa Kaal or you have read about Mahaa Kaal?

You wrote "Mahaa Kaal-Bhiaanak Aatmak Maot."
I have heard that Aatmaa does not die. Is this the translation from a Sikh?

-----

ਅਨਿਕ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਨਮਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ ॥
अनिक जोनि जनमहि मरहि आतम रामु न चीन ॥
'anik joni janmahi marahi aatam raamu na cheen'. SGGS Ang 254-12
Saakat through many incarnations gets birth and dies, does not recognize Aatam Raamu.
The above Vaak explains that the Saakat gets birth and dies. Aatam accompanies one through all incarnations.



Balbir Singh

[Maha Singh]

Fauj, just out of interest, who do you believe the term Mahakaal refers to in this Tuk.

ਜਪਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਲਾਲੁ ॥
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤੂ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਖਾਈ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਲੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Is Maha Kaal a seperate entity from Akaal, is it not Mahakaal at all and just means death, or is Maha Kaal and Akaal one and the same?

[Mystical]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Jun 10 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

Show me Guru Granth Sahib Ji quote where Kaal or Mahakaal is used for God. What is your definition of functional names? Any names describing actions that occur? Kaal is death, mahakaal is an even worse death, spiritual death and Gurbani says to stay away from Mahakaal. Why would Guru Ji tell us to stay away from Mahakaal if it is God or an attribute of God?

Mahakal is another name of God and an attribute. Gurbani does say to keep away from Mahakal. An easier way of looking at it is, If you get on God's bad side e.g through sin, your going to experience his wrath a punishment for sins.

[Xylitol]

God transcends dualities like gender:

ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਇਕੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਬੈਸੇ ॥ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਜੋਤਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਨਾਥ ਸਚੇ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥: Sunn mandal ik Yogi baise. Naar na purakh kahahu kou kaise. Tribhavan joti rahe liv laaee. Sur nar naath sache saranaaee: The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits in the Realm of Absolute Stillness (state free of mind's wanderings or Phurne). (Since God) is neither male nor female; how can anyone describe Him? The three worlds center their attention on His Light. The godly beings and the Yogic masters seek the Sanctuary of this True Lord (sggs 685).

# ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥: Aape purakh aape hee naaree: You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female (sggs 1020).
# ਆਪੇ ਨਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਸਾ ॥: Aapae nar aape fun naaree aape saar aap hee paasaa: He Himself is male, and He Himself is female; He Himself is the chessman, and He Himself is the board (sggs 1403).

These shabads prove that God has both masculine and feminine attributes, they do not preclude calling God by a feminine name. Additionally, regarding God's roop, the last shabad shows that he is in all forms, and not just bound to one.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Saying God has 4 arms sure isn't Gurmat because then God is no longer Nirankaar.

Some people don't understand Sargun and Nirgun and keep repeating themselves without reading posts.

Once again for final time:
Nirgun = Without the three elements or Maaya (Above maayaa)
Sargun = Sarab Srayst (greatest of all, most inspiring)

How do any of those two defintions above fit into 4 arms?

Balbir Singh Ji!
Say Sat Sri AKaal
Jee Aayan Nu, Jee Aayan Nu

Mahakaal = great death = death worse than physical death = spiritual death or aatmac death

How can it mean God in any circumstances then?

You have a frog, you attack maha in front of it.
It will become maha dadoo meaning the biggest daddu.
It will not become opposite of daddu and become dadduless.

More harsh example,
moorakh

You add maha in front of a person who is moorakh
It will only become maha moorakh meaning even a bigger moorakh.

Same way, adding maha in front of kaal only makes it a bigger death which is spiritual death. There is nothing worse than spiritual death in Gurmat. Physical death comes to everyone, it is part of nature and life. Gurmat doesn't consider it death because that death is the death which unites us with the Lord if we bhagat karam, however if we are busy reading or promoting third party books, then that death is really bad because chance to meet God is lost.

Quote

Look up metaphor, analogy, and simile in a dictionary or take a course in basic literary criticism, because these are used many times in bani.

I sure know what those are. You aren't going to use fire to represent cold by any means unless you are lost. Instead of these cheap shots, why don't you study Gurbani and bring the quote where Mahakaal is used for God. It is hard to debate with illeterate people who have never read or understood Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Quote

Mahakal is another name of God and an attribute. Gurbani does say to keep away from Mahakal. An easier way of looking at it is, If you get on God's bad side e.g through sin, your going to experience his wrath a punishment for sins.

When did God develop a bad side? There is nothing bad about God.
Gurbani says, whatever God does is great.

Brahmgyani Tay Kash Buraa Na Bhaeaa ||

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Xylitol, on Jun 11 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

God transcends dualities like gender:

ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਇਕੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਬੈਸੇ ॥ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਜੋਤਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਨਾਥ ਸਚੇ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥: Sunn mandal ik Yogi baise. Naar na purakh kahahu kou kaise. Tribhavan joti rahe liv laaee. Sur nar naath sache saranaaee: The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits in the Realm of Absolute Stillness (state free of mind's wanderings or Phurne). (Since God) is neither male nor female; how can anyone describe Him? The three worlds center their attention on His Light. The godly beings and the Yogic masters seek the Sanctuary of this True Lord (sggs 685).

# ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥: Aape purakh aape hee naaree: You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female (sggs 1020).
# ਆਪੇ ਨਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਸਾ ॥: Aapae nar aape fun naaree aape saar aap hee paasaa: He Himself is male, and He Himself is female; He Himself is the chessman, and He Himself is the board (sggs 1403).

These shabads prove that God has both masculine and feminine attributes, they do not preclude calling God by a feminine name. Additionally, regarding God's roop, the last shabad shows that he is in all forms, and not just bound to one.

Don't use Gurbani quotes you don't understand. It is like you guys are getting knowledge of Gurmat without putting in any effort.
# ਆਪੇ ਨਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਸਾ ॥: Aapae nar aape fun naaree aape saar aap hee paasaa: He Himself is male, and He Himself is female; He Himself is the chessman, and He Himself is the board (sggs 1403).

This quote is from Bhatt Swayas. Like I said before, there isn't a proper teekaa available of BHatt Swayas so please refrain from using one or two lines from there. Also, I don't have time to go through the whole shabad at the moment. Once we release the proper teekaa of bhatt swayas, we will be able to get proper answers of that quote. Proper teekaa of Sidh Goast at the moment is being worked on. Bhatt Swayas are probably next. Other than that, Bhatt swayas aren't something to be understood in a second. It takes time to understand them.

Also, God gave roop to everything. We don't pray to that roop. We pray to what Japuji Sahib says to pray to:

Ades Tisai Ades
Aaad Aniil Anaad Anaahat
Juog Juog Eko Vays

There are many shabads in Guru Granth Sahib Ji for which we don't have proper aarths. How could we spend time and have proper arths when we can't get out of third party books?

[shaheediyan]

Lol, Fudge, you have ignored the many reponses proving your gender theory wrong.

You really are a jester.

[Kaljug]

The Khalsa Fauj:

Quote

Saying God has 4 arms sure isn't Gurmat because then God is no longer Nirankaar.

Quote

Why are you guys debating a granth none of you have actually read from head to toe?

So, saying a granth has a head and toes means it's not a book? Or is it a figure of speech? It's clear that you have no idea how similes, metaphors, analogies, allusions and figurative speech work, despite your claims that you do. This is not a cheap shot, it's actually an illustration of your inability to think in any but literal terms.

When Maradona claimed that it was the Hand of God that enabled him to score the winning goal in the World Cup, he wasn't talking about a big hand coming out of the sky and tapping the ball into the net.

Quote

Some people don't understand Sargun and Nirgun and keep repeating themselves without reading posts.

Once again for final time:
Nirgun = Without the three elements or Maaya (Above maayaa)
Sargun = Sarab Srayst (greatest of all, most inspiring)

Your translation of these two terms is incorrect and has no basis in historical etymology.

Quote

Mahakaal = great death = death worse than physical death = spiritual death or aatmac death

How can it mean God in any circumstances then?

See above. Now you are just being silly and dramatic.

Quote

Same way, adding maha in front of kaal only makes it a bigger death which is spiritual death. There is nothing worse than spiritual death in Gurmat. Physical death comes to everyone, it is part of nature and life. Gurmat doesn't consider it death because that death is the death which unites us with the Lord if we bhagat karam, however if we are busy reading or promoting third party books, then that death is really bad because chance to meet God is lost.

Aatman does not die according to Gurbani.

Quote

I sure know what those are. You aren't going to use fire to represent cold by any means unless you are lost. Instead of these cheap shots, why don't you study Gurbani and bring the quote where Mahakaal is used for God. It is hard to debate with illeterate people who have never read or understood Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Have you never heard of cold burns? It's amusing that you call people illiterate when it's completely evident from your post that your reading comprehension is non-existent. Perhaps if you spent some time reading fiction and poetry instead of posting nonsensical statements in every thread, you might be able to understand these things.

Regards,
K.