169 replies to this topic

[dsd108]

The emergence of the Namdhari movement was a thorn in the side of the British Government and the British were highly concerned about it. The best way to tackle this situation was to create another movement against it, which would slow down the growth of the Namdhari movement. This was the birth of the Singh Sabha movement. The most important factor, which could create a divide between the Namdharis and the other Sikhs was the question of Guru Ship. The Namdharis believed that Guru Gobind Singh did not die at Nanded , but came to Punjab in disguise and conferred the Gurgaddi to Guru Balak Singh. Contrary to the other Sikhs who believed that Guru Gobind Singh died at Nanded and bestowed the Gurgaddi to the Adi Granth. This reason was more than enough for the British and the loyal British Sikhs to administer the policy of "divide and rule". (By Shamsher Singh Ashok -"Punjab dian Lehraan".)

[dalsingh101]

I would say the Singh Sabha movement was heavily influenced by the Protestant Christian style education that key people involved had (i.e. Bhai Vir Singh).

I think they tried to interpret Sikhi in light of the western, rational and so-called "enlightened" ideas they had come across. But they also tried to be true to the spirit of Sikhi, at least at how they understood gurmat. The trend is to move away from a Hindu cosmology to a more western one.

They also made a decision to generally follow the new British establishment although later they would challenge them (like they did to get control of the Gurdwaras from mahants). No challenge involved a direct threat to British rule. Politics was well within the sphere of what actions Singh Sabias took and their understanding of the democratic process influenced them. However I don't think it would be accurate to simply portray them as a British creation. For example Thakar Singh Sandhawalia, Maharajah Daleep Singh's cousin was a founder and he is the one actually responsible for reconverting Daleep to Sikhism and informing him of his lost heritage. He tried to get the Maharajah to come back to Panjab and claim his rightful inheritence. The truth is quite complex in my opinion. The breakthroughs made by whitey couldn't have been lost on our forefathers and some of them may have understood that we must master such things in order to operate in the new world around them. M. Ranjit SIngh was the first to recognise this in terms of military tactics and hardware. But it cannot be denied that some of them may well have crossed over the line into sycophancy. What happened was that a paradigm shift occured with the introduction of western ideas. Some of the Singh Sabha intellectuals were at the forefront of trying to negotiate this sudden change. The clearest example I can give is how after and during this period miracles in the biographical accounts of the Gurus become more and more muted. I personally feel that a lot of good work was done by the Singh Sabhias. Some editing of puratan manuscripts may have been a bit zealous, but even this I can understand.

The Namdhari suggestion that dasmesh pita lived till 149 giving secret support is one most Sikhs would find ridiculous.

Edited by dalsingh101, 20 August 2009 - 08:13 PM.

[Xylitol]

dsd108, on Aug 20 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

The emergence of the Namdhari movement was a thorn in the side of the British Government and the British were highly concerned about it. The best way to tackle this situation was to create another movement against it, which would slow down the growth of the Namdhari movement. This was the birth of the Singh Sabha movement. The most important factor, which could create a divide between the Namdharis and the other Sikhs was the question of Guru Ship. The Namdharis believed that Guru Gobind Singh did not die at Nanded , but came to Punjab in disguise and conferred the Gurgaddi to Guru Balak Singh. Contrary to the other Sikhs who believed that Guru Gobind Singh died at Nanded and bestowed the Gurgaddi to the Adi Granth. This reason was more than enough for the British and the loyal British Sikhs to administer the policy of "divide and rule". (By Shamsher Singh Ashok -"Punjab dian Lehraan".)

The best way to fight the Namdhari movement was to split it off from the panth. Classic divide and conquer. The British propogated the idea of Baba Ram Singh ji as the Guru. However, Baba Ram Singh ji wrote numerous letters from prison explicitly stating that he was not the Guru, that he believed in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

[londondajatt]

We need to get the Lahore Singh Sabha story out to all the sangat, get the children away from the neo sikhs of singh sabha origins.

[dalsingh101]

londondajatt, on Aug 20 2009, 09:11 PM, said:

We need to get the Lahore Singh Sabha story out to all the sangat, get the children away from the neo sikhs of singh sabha origins.

Be careful you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater jutta.

[chatanga1]

londondajatt, on Aug 20 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

We need to get the Lahore Singh Sabha story out to all the sangat, get the children away from the neo sikhs of singh sabha origins.

which would leave us with ?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

There were two Singh Sabhas.

One was Lahore Singh Sabha and the other one was Amritsar Singh Sabha.

They had huge differences with each other. Khem Singh Bedi and group were Amritsar Singh Sabha and they excommunicated Gyani Dit Singh and Prof. Gurmukh Singh from Panth.

Gyani Dit Singh was first living in a dera but a live talk with Prof. Gurmukh Singh turned him into what we would call a missionary these days.

[navjot2]

dalsingh101, on Aug 20 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

I would say the Singh Sabha movement was heavily influenced by the Protestant Christian style education that key people involved had (i.e. Bhai Vir Singh).

very well said. i think you hit the nail on the head.

i disagree that we should make excuses for them. what is sacred should be left alone.

[dalsingh101]

navjot2, on Aug 25 2009, 11:31 PM, said:

very well said. i think you hit the nail on the head.

i disagree that we should make excuses for them. what is sacred should be left alone.

I don't agree that all they did was negative. That period also produced much good. Like Ganda Singh who put Sikh history on the right footing. Without people like him we may have lost our strong, confident history to typically mythologised Indian style accounts.

Many of the Singh Sabhas were simply trying relate Sikhism within the "enlightened" framework that dominates today. I mean what do you think of Kahn Singh Nabha? He was a Singh Sabha (I'm sure) and did lots of good work for the panth, that we still use today. Ganda Singh is another example. Even Bhai Vir Singh helped develop Panjabi litetature whatever one may think of his editing style.

It is wrong to dismiss them like that. Recognise their contributions.

[N30 S!NGH]

I agree with dalsingh101. Contributions of singh sabha cannot be ignored especially raising a voice against caste discrimination happening in puratan samparda's or dera's and also compiling work to give jawab to arya samajis how sikhism is separate dharam than Hinduism. But with that being said, they went to the extremes in insecurity start spreading venom against sainthood in Sikhism, Sri Dasam Granth and various puratan parampara without studying its proper framework claiming them bahamanvaad. Their all time low was segregating nirmale and udasi from the panth because of few bad apples, and stopping parkash of sri dasam granth at darbar sahib and getting ladies to beat jathedar of budda dal in darbar sahib so they can get him out as its against dharam yudh maryada to raise hand against womens.

Some elements of singh sabha back then were also influenced by bhusaria ideology..to read more about bhusaria idealogy click in this link:
http://www.sikhaware...showtopic=10112

[Mithar]

The Khalsa Fauj, on Aug 21 2009, 07:32 AM, said:

There were two Singh Sabhas.

One was Lahore Singh Sabha and the other one was Amritsar Singh Sabha.

They had huge differences with each other. Khem Singh Bedi and group were Amritsar Singh Sabha and they excommunicated Gyani Dit Singh and Prof. Gurmukh Singh from Panth.

Gyani Dit Singh was first living in a dera but a live talk with Prof. Gurmukh Singh turned him into what we would call a missionary these days.

Giani Dit Singh jee was a believer in Dasam Granth while modern Sikh missionaries believe in only portions of Dasam Granth.

[tonyhp32]

N30 S!NGH, on Aug 26 2009, 06:26 AM, said:

I agree with dalsingh101. Contributions of singh sabha cannot be ignored especially raising a voice against caste discrimination happening in puratan samparda's or dera's and also compiling work to give jawab to arya samajis how sikhism is separate dharam than Hinduism. But with that being said, they went to the extremes in insecurity start spreading venom against sainthood in Sikhism, Sri Dasam Granth and various puratan parampara without studying its proper framework claiming them bahamanvaad. Their all time low was segregating nirmale and udasi from the panth because of few bad apples, and stopping parkash of sri dasam granth at darbar sahib and getting ladies to beat jathedar of budda dal in darbar sahib so they can get him out as its against dharam yudh maryada to raise hand against womens.

Some elements of singh sabha back then were also influenced by bhusaria ideology..to read more about bhusaria idealogy click in this link:
http://www.sikhaware...showtopic=10112

Neo

When will you let up on the sanatan propaganda about when the Budha Dal was kicked out of Akal Takht. So those dastardly conniving and effeminate Akalis used women to beat up Budha Dal Jathedar knowing that he wouldn't attack women! I am sure there were soormay enough within the Akali Jathas who could have taken care of the Budha Dal Jathedar without the need to have women do the job. According to research, a third of the Akalis were former soldiers who had just fought in the battlefields of the First World War, so there would have no problem with finding volunteers to throw the Budha Dal Jathedar out. Read the life stories of Akalis like Kartar Singh Jhabbar and you might get a better feel for what the Akalis were like.

I challenged you on this story many years ago and then your only evidence for this story was that some Nihang had told you.

I think your fairy story is an insult to the thousands of Akalis who lost their lives, were injured and who lost their livelihoods and pensions to liberate the Gurdwaras from the Mahants. I think your fairy story is probably made up as an excuse to why the Nihangs stood by while their Jathedar was so unceremoniously kicked out of the Akal Takht.

If you are interested to know what the Akalis were like during the Gurdwara movement read this interesting article by T. Sher Singh.

http://www.sikhchic....p?id=115&cat=18

[dalsingh101]

I think people are getting distracted.

Edited by dalsingh101, 26 August 2009 - 09:05 PM.

[N30 S!NGH]

Bikkie,

This is hardly sanatan propaganda. This is quite well known fact in the dals. This event was not only confirmed by this nihang singh in Canada but many singhs from dals not just budda dal who live in india as well. Why just because this event is passed around oral traditions, all of sudden is less credible than written in books, articles, news papers? I was just searching through online, came across kamalroop singh blog where he mentions, this is not only oral history of khalsa panth but its actually written out by the people who were in charge of priting press around that time.

This is what he writes. He is hardly sanatan, just surf through his blog. He is staunchly against nihang niddar singh and his followers and self invented word- sanatanism created by these people.

Anyway from his blog:

http://kamalroopsingh.blogspot.com/2009/08...-kaladhari.html

Quote

Baba ji, was the last Akali Jathedar of the Akal Takht before the British created SGPC, and sadly used a large group of women to attack the Nihangs. (Nihangs do not attack women or children). Baba Ji's bones were broken, he said to the girl, 'you are like my daughter, but if it pleases you take out your anger out. After this Jhabbar and his neo-Sikh crew made sure that they disposed of Dasam and Sarbloh Granth, and any other traditional Khalsa practices.
Baba Ji was given his name by an earlier Jathedar after seeing his remarkable spiritual powers.

This was written out of by the people in charge of the printing press, but not the oral history of the Khalsa Panth.

Thanks for the link you shared above, i ll read it throughly when i get some spare time.

[Matheen]

Didn't the British get rid of the Nihang Jathedar at Akaal Takhat when they installed the mahants? i could be wrong, but I thought the Akaalis got rid of the mahants - the Nihangs were alread gone by that time, and in fact had been pursued by the British for some time prior as well.

The Singh Sabha/ SGPC Akaalis forcibly took over a lot of Gurudwaras that were in the hands of Gursikhs as well, but I think that was at a later stage.