Singh Sabha Movement?

[singh2]

LOL calm down dear you have been given a reference to an account of a Bibi beating up baba Sahib Singh and I refernced Giani Kirpal Singh, ex Jathedar of Akal Takht who writes that the Nihang Singhs were custodians of Akal Takht up until 1920.

malwa da sher ji, This man has no reference to quote. below statement of John lawerence should seal the case. This was after the fall out of confrontation between Nihungs and British army in 1846. the incident took place when Nihungs fired on british troops who entered Akal takhat while trying to disarm Nihung Ganga singh.

British understood that it was not right for them to disposses Nihungs of akal takhat as it will enrage general public. so they let the things cool down.

Now to rebut those who are arguing since beginning with malice towrads nihungs maintaining that Nihungs were not at akal takhat since the demise of akali phula singh i have to say that we have following

1) John malcolm visiting punjab in 1805 and mentioning presence of Nihungs at Akal takhat and Harmandir sahib complex

2) French visitor going to punjab in 1831 and mentioning the complex being headquarters of nihungs.

3) John lawerence, british resident at lahore issuing a statement in 1847 outlining some protocols and debarring British citizens from entering Akal takhat and harmandir sahib.

4) Site of Nihungs testifying that Nihungs were there till 1925

4) General public knowledge in Punjab that Akalis had taken over akal takhat from nihungs.Here we have to see the birth of akali party that was around 1920.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Nihang

Nihangs/Akalis today

The Akali headquarters was the Akal Bunga at Amritsar, where they assumed the lead in directing religious ceremonies and convoking the Gurmat; indeed, they laid claim to exercise a general leadership of the whole Sikh community. Since Ranjit Singh's time Anandpur has been their real headquarters, but their influence is still being felt in the world today.

Today, Nihangs foregather in their thousands at Anandpur, on the occasion of the festival of Hola Mohalla and display their martial skills. This tradition has been in place since the time of Guru Gobind Singh.

Unquote

Only personal statement from a disgruntled member who is known for his hate towrads Nihungs. He has not been able to provide any reference in support of his case.

Edited October 15, 2009 by singh2

[tonyhp32]

LOL calm down dear you have been given a reference to an account of a Bibi beating up baba Sahib Singh and I refernced Giani Kirpal Singh, ex Jathedar of Akal Takht who writes that the Nihang Singhs were custodians of Akal Takht up until 1920.

Is this the same Kirpal Singh who went on Indian TV after Bluestar and LIED that the Akal Takht had not been damaged? What I was seeking was a contemporary account from someone who visited the complex around the time of the Akali takeover and who confirms that there was Nihang Jathedar at Akal Takht. It shouldn't be difficult given the number of newspapers that were published at that time. What I provided was evidence from 1859 when the document relating to the administration was created and there is no mention of Nihangs at all as having any role in the administration of the complex! I also provided evidence from a contemporary accounts of the takeover which state that the Nihangs tried to take over the Akal Takht on behalf the ousted Pujaris. You may argue that these accounts are biased because they are from Akali leaders who took part but even where writers wanting the defame Kartar Singh Jhabbar such as the grandson of Amar Singh Jhubal they have not given the story about the beating of the Nihang Jathedar when such a story would greatly assist the writer's case.

Singh2,

For the last time will you stop regurgitating the same old quotes prior to 1849. Do you not know the difference between 1849 and 1920?

Proving you to be ignorant is getting boring now. The article by the grandson of Jhubal, he should know more about his father than you would.

http://share.zoho.com/preview/writer/66266000000006005/Sardar%20Amar%20Singh%20Jhubal-%20A%20Stalwart%20of%20Akali%20and%20Independent%20Movements

[shaheediyan]

Tony - administerial and religious duties are 2 seperate things. As an example, look into the Sant and Mahant set ups.

Akalis (real ones) were responsible for religious duties and traditions. Ranjit Singh and later the British brought administration into the game - this did not affect the duties of the Akalis of Akaal Bunga.

I think this topic hsa run its course, you can't make someone with a chip on his shoulder see sense.

On another note, your Singh Sabha/SGPC heroes were responsible for removing my Fathers bani and kirtan traditions from Akal Takht.

History is written by the victors, folk (oral) traditions tell of the struggle of the persecuted, not everything is recorded in written history. But using history and piecing important changes at certain time intervals, alongside oral tradition and clues from the victors written history, its not difficult to ascertain the truth.

Here we have found 'contemporary' evidence that 'Akalis' used women (at least one) to oust the caretakers of Akal Takht. This 'history' fits perfectly with the Nihangs oral tradition of how Baba Sahib Singh was insulted and unceremoniously removed from their seva.

[singh2]

Proving you to be ignorant is getting boring now. The article by the grandson of Jhubal, he should know more about his father than you would.

http://share.zoho.com/preview/writer/66266000000006005/Sardar%20Amar%20Singh%20Jhubal-%20A%20Stalwart%20of%20Akali%20and%20Independent%20Movements

Tony

The above proves that you are an ignorant person who has no knowledge of sikh affairs and is an internet scholar only.How can a person who is the main person in formation of akali dal join congress when there was no congress yet in Punjab. Expand your search criteria and you will find his grandson to be totally wrong on this.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Amar_Singh

Read below

. Henceforth the Jhabal brothers were recognized as a force in Sikh affairs. When the control of the Akal Takht was taken over by the Sikhs and Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee formed on 16 November 1920, both of them and their third brother, Sarmukh Singh, were included in the new organization as members. Amar Singh was nominated a member of the provisional commitee to manage the Tarn Taran Gurdwara after it had been taken over from the priests by the reformists.

He took a leading part in assuming possession of gurdwaras at Othian, Teja Kalan, Chomala Sahib, Panja Sahib, Peshawar, Ramdas and Jhabal. For giving a public speech, the British thought was controversial, after the Nankana Sahib tragedy, he was arrested and imprisoned for six months. Amar Singh presided over the third annual session of the Sikh League held at Lyallpur in 1922. He participated in the non-cooperation movement launched by the Indian National Congress as well as in the Akali morchas for the reformation of the gurdwaras. On 16 July 1922, he was elected vicepresident of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.

Unquote

You also need to understand with cool mind that after incident of 1846 when there was a fight between Nihung sikhs entrenched in Akal takhat and british forces British resident had issued an order that favoured status quo as far as religious palces were concerned. In simple langauge that means that as Nihungs were there at akal takhat in 1846 they continued to be there till akalis dislodged them in 1925. i hope it makes some sense.

http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/preventing-%E2%80%98bluestar%E2%80%99-like-operation/

Amritsar was the religious capital of the Sikhs where all questions involving the general interests of the community were decided. As all the Sikh sardars held Amritsar in high esteem, the decisions taken there had a moral and religious binding on them. No Sikh, howsoever influential or powerful, could afford to go against the decisions taken at Akal Takht.

When the British occupied Punjab after defeating the Sikhs in 1846, they decided to demilitarise Punjab. Public proclamations where issued demanding the surrender of arms. But Sardar Ganga Singh, a Nihang, with some of his associates, refused to surrender their arms and took position in Akal Bunga, i.e., Akal Takht, and resisted the entry of the British soldiers with their shoes on. A subedar of the British army was killed while the Commandant of the Corps and some soldiers were wounded. Ultimately, Ganga Singh was arrested along with his associates by a British reinforcement dispatched from Lahore. Ganga Singh and two of his associates were hanged and six of them were sentenced to seven years imprisonment with labour. Sir John Lawrence, officiating Resident at Lahore, wrote on 19th February, 1848, to the Secretary Government of India, Foreign Department, Fort William (Calcutta), that these Nihang Sikhs (then called Akalees) had won the admiration of the Sikh masses and “as these Akalees are looked up to with respect and even reverence by the Sikh population of the Punjab, it is not impossible that the six prisoners, noted above (Bhag Singh, Kharg Singh, Mustan Singh, Heera Singh, Hookum Singh, and Jawanhar Singh), who have been sentenced to seven years imprisonment may hereafter make their escape with the connivance of their guards. I, therefore, beg to recommend that the Right Honourable, the Governor General-in-Council may be pleased to direct the issue of a warrant, allowing them to be confined for the period for which they have been sentenced in one of the jails in the Regulation Provinces.”

Although the above prisoners were ordered to be confined in the jail at Bareilly, vide order dated 10th March, 1848, the British authorities issued an order prohibiting the molestation of Sikhs and directing British subjects to show due respect to the sanctity of the Akal Takht. An earlier order dated March 24th, 1847, issued by H.M. Lawrence, Resident of Lahore, Reads as under :

“The priests of Amritsar having complained of annoyances, this is made known to all concerned, that by order of the Governor General, British subjects are forbidden to enter the temple (called the durbar) or its precincts at Amritsar, or indeed any temple, with their shoes. Nor are the Sikhs to be molested, or in any way to be interfered with. Shoes are to be taken off at the bunga at the corner of the tank and no person is to walk round the tank with his shoes on.

H.M. Lawrence, Resident

Lahore, March 24th, 1847”

Edited October 16, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Tony - administerial and religious duties are 2 seperate things. As an example, look into the Sant and Mahant set ups.

Akalis (real ones) were responsible for religious duties and traditions. Ranjit Singh and later the British brought administration into the game - this did not affect the duties of the Akalis of Akaal Bunga.

I think this topic hsa run its course, you can't make someone with a chip on his shoulder see sense.

On another note, your Singh Sabha/SGPC heroes were responsible for removing my Fathers bani and kirtan traditions from Akal Takht.

History is written by the victors, folk (oral) traditions tell of the struggle of the persecuted, not everything is recorded in written history. But using history and piecing important changes at certain time intervals, alongside oral tradition and clues from the victors written history, its not difficult to ascertain the truth.

Here we have found 'contemporary' evidence that 'Akalis' used women (at least one) to oust the caretakers of Akal Takht. This 'history' fits perfectly with the Nihangs oral tradition of how Baba Sahib Singh was insulted and unceremoniously removed from their seva.

Great post by shaheediyan with indepth explanation especially first two line that unfolds the whole riddle.

[tonyhp32]

Tony - administerial and religious duties are 2 seperate things. As an example, look into the Sant and Mahant set ups.

Akalis (real ones) were responsible for religious duties and traditions. Ranjit Singh and later the British brought administration into the game - this did not affect the duties of the Akalis of Akaal Bunga.

I think this topic hsa run its course, you can't make someone with a chip on his shoulder see sense.

On another note, your Singh Sabha/SGPC heroes were responsible for removing my Fathers bani and kirtan traditions from Akal Takht.

History is written by the victors, folk (oral) traditions tell of the struggle of the persecuted, not everything is recorded in written history. But using history and piecing important changes at certain time intervals, alongside oral tradition and clues from the victors written history, its not difficult to ascertain the truth.

Here we have found 'contemporary' evidence that 'Akalis' used women (at least one) to oust the caretakers of Akal Takht. This 'history' fits perfectly with the Nihangs oral tradition of how Baba Sahib Singh was insulted and unceremoniously removed from their seva.

The Nihangs had the control over Akal Takht during the Misl days not because they were viewed as having had some great commission from Guru Gobind Singh but as they belonged to a Misl that did not seize lands as the other Misls did, they could be seen as being neutral in the disputes between the different Sardars and Misls. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had no need for a neutral force as he had taken over the other Misls and hence sometime during the later years of reign (possibly after the death of Akali Phula Singh) he did away with the Nihang custodianship of Akal Takht appointing his own Sardars as Managers of the complex, the one at the time of the British annexation being Lehna Singh Majithia. Your theory of the seperation of administrative and religious duties falls down flat when we consider that the person who was the manager of the complex during the days of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a member of a committee of Sardars that wrote the administrative document of 1859 and he makes no mention of Nihangs or Akalis as it does of Pujaris, Ragis and Rababis. The administration document covers Harmandir Sahib and Akal Bunga as well as some other Bungas in the complex.

[tonyhp32]

Singh2,

So you know more that Jhubal's grandson about whether he joined Congress party in 1919. Thst just shows that what you lack in intelligence you make up for in ego.

[shaheediyan]

Nihangs were the Pujaris i.e. the top sevadaar. The 'class' of the Pujari didn't need to be mentioned.

Out of interest Tony, if you have this info, could you post it please with references i.e. the names of the Pujaris of Akaal Takht and the year/s in which they served.

Thanks.

[Mithar]

Nihangs were the Pujaris i.e. the top sevadaar. The 'class' of the Pujari didn't need to be mentioned.

Out of interest Tony, if you have this info, could you post it please with references i.e. the names of the Pujaris of Akaal Takht and the year/s in which they served.

Thanks.

So now the Nihangs were the Pujaris? this really is too much...

[shaheediyan]

Not really, if you bother to read 19th c records i.e. of Hazur Sahib, you will see Nihangs were Pujaris. You need to stop your 1 dimensional thinking re Nihangs i.e. them being nothing more than extinct chakkar throwin men in blue.

As I said, you will only learn the truth when you experience living traditions rather than reading about them on the internet.

Its the same Nihang Pujaris who you are going to eventually listen to when you get your hands on the Sarbloh Granth Sahib paat recordings you have requested.

[singh2]

Singh2,

So you know more that Jhubal's grandson about whether he joined Congress party in 1919. Thst just shows that what you lack in intelligence you make up for in ego.

Tony

You have to see the history in totality. There are many facts that trash the statement of jhabal's grandosn.

1) Akali dal was formed in 1920 and jahbal brothers were prominent founding members of akali dal.

2) There was no congress in Punjab in 1919

3) Jhabal was vice president of SGPC in 1920.

People do make mistakes when writing. So you should admit that this was an error as facts state otherwise.

[singh2]

So now the Nihangs were the Pujaris? this really is too much...

Not in real sense and far apart from the Pujaris who were on pay roole of managament.

In my opinion pujari was the term used in general for granthis those days.

[singh2]

Nihangs were the Pujaris i.e. the top sevadaar. The 'class' of the Pujari didn't need to be mentioned.

Out of interest Tony, if you have this info, could you post it please with references i.e. the names of the Pujaris of Akaal Takht and the year/s in which they served.

Thanks.

Tony does not understand the difference between administrative and religious control of the complex those days.

You had listed it nicely in your post earlier. When we say administrative that covers the funds to be made

available for renovation and upkeep of complex. Harmanidr sahib underwent a major renovation during

Ranjit singh's time.

John Malcolm mentions Nihungs( written as akalis) being incharge of whole complex. French tourist writes

same thing.

[singh2]

belonged to a Misl that did not seize lands as the other Misls d

Not one but there were quite a few misls whose heads were Nihung sikhs.

Hazur sahib records indicate Nihungs of kreore singhia misls present there.

Baghel singh who overtook Delhi belonged to this misl.

Nawab kapur singh had undivided Nihung jathas under him.

[Guest]

Interesting article on Singh Sabha Movement:

http://www.vidhia.com/Historical%20and%20Political/Sikh%20Politics%20and%20Religion%20-%20The%20Bhasuar%20Singh%20Sabha.pdf

enjoy !!!

[chatanga1]

Singh2,

Kartar Singh Jhabbar was amongst the faction that thought that it would be harder to liberate the Gurdwaras with a Hindu government in place rather than under the British.

Good thinking!

[navjot2]

Have a read of this whilst your crying into your keyboard: http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=255:raj-karega-khalsa&catid=34:english&Itemid=63

wow easy length response of bitching. thanks for exhibiting your mindset. thanks also for clarifying the kind of trash you have been reading.

[singh2]

wow easy length response of bitching. thanks for exhibiting your mindset. thanks also for clarifying the kind of trash you have been reading.

Your hate towards sikh scholars is obvious when you use this type of trash language.That speaks a volume where you come from.

[HSD1]

wow easy length response of bitching. thanks for exhibiting your mindset. thanks also for clarifying the kind of trash you have been reading.

Actually you provided the link to the website and i pointed out another source on it you might like. Anyway we all know it takes you a long time to stop crying, so go lock yourself in a cupboard.

[navjot2]

was refering to the photo images on the website. the website itself was of no interest

[Guest]

Mega bump

[Kuttabanda2]

Bikkie,

 

This is hardly sanatan propaganda. This is quite well known fact in the dals. This event was not only confirmed by this nihang singh in Canada but many singhs from dals not just budda dal who live in india as well. Why just because this event is passed around oral traditions, all of sudden is less credible than written in books, articles, news papers? I was just searching through online, came across kamalroop singh blog where he mentions, this is not only oral history of khalsa panth but its actually written out by the people who were in charge of priting press around that time.

 

This is what he writes. He is hardly sanatan, just surf through his blog. He is staunchly against nihang niddar singh and his followers and self invented word- sanatanism created by these people.

 

Anyway from his blog:

 

http://kamalroopsingh.blogspot.com/2009/08...-kaladhari.html

 

 

 

Thanks for the link you shared above, i ll read it throughly when i get some spare time.

oral Tradition is obviously less credible than written sources. It goes from from oral reiteration to a game of telephone really quickly. Both sides (Nihangs, and Singh Sabha Akalis) have their own narratives.  Referring to a person who hasn't seen the event himself yet remembers it orally is of no use. 

[Guest]

Good topic