86 replies to this topic

[HarjasKaur]

Dalsingh101 writes:

Quote

Lets be frank. Bhai Vir Singh expunged some material that was dubiousand some stuff he just plain didn't like. I've already posted about alikely source of the Chandi legend and a potential motivation for this.The Raja Janak stuff is clearly from the same source as the Bala JanamSakhis, i.e. the Hindalis who tried to create their own rival movementdenigrating the Sikh Guru's in their literature. That is the firstplace we hear of Baba Nanak's subordination to the rajah.

Jio, why did the mention survive in Shri Guru Granth Sahib?

[indent]ਕਹੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲ ਸਹਾਰ ਸਪਤ ਦੀਪ ਮਝਾਰ ਲਹਣਾ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
kahu keerath kal sehaar sapath dheep majhaar lehanaa jagathr gur paras muraar ||2||
O Kal Sahaar, chant the Praises of Lehnaa throughout the seven continents; He met with the Lord, and became Guru of the World.

ਤੈ ਤਉ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਬਿਮਲ ਜਾਸੁ ਬਿਥਾਰੁ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸੁਜਨ ਜੀਆ ਕੋ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
thai tho dhrirriou naam apaar bimal jaas bithhaar saadhhik sidhh sujan jeeaa ko adhhaar ||
You hold tight to the Naam, the Name of the Infinite Lord; Your expanse is immaculate. You are the Support of the Siddhas and seekers, and the good and humble beings.

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
thoo thaa janik raajaa aouthaar sabadh sansaar saar rehehi jagathr jal padham beechaar ||
You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on the water.

ਕਲਿਪ ਤਰੁ ਰੋਗ ਬਿਦਾਰੁ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤਾਪ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਆਤਮਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
kalip thar rog bidhaar sansaar thaap nivaar aathamaa thribidhh thaerai eaek liv thaar ||
Like the Elyisan Tree, You cure all illnesses and take away the sufferings of the world. The three-phased soul is lovingly attuned to You alone.
~SGGS Ji ang 1391



ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦਰਸਾਯਉ ॥
agam agochar paarabreham sathigur dharasaayo ||
The Inaccessible and Unfathomable, Supreme Lord God is revealed through the True Guru.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਨਭਉ ਠਹਰਾਯਉ ॥੨॥
gur arajun ghar gur raamadhaas anabho theharaayo ||2||
In the House of Guru Raam Daas, Guru Arjun has appeared as the Embodiment of the Fearless Lord. ||2||

ਜਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਬਰਤਾਇਆ ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਆਲੀਣਾ ॥
janak raaj barathaaeiaa sathajug aaleenaa ||
The benign rule of Raja Janak has been established, and the Golden Age of Sat Yuga has begun.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅਪਤੀਜੁ ਪਤੀਣਾ ॥
gur sabadhae man maaniaa apatheej patheenaa ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is pleased and appeased; the unsatisfied mind is satisfied.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਵ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
gur naanak sach neev saaj sathigur sang leenaa ||
Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Truth; He is blended with the True Guru.
~SGGS Ji ang 1407


[/indent]Moreover, might I ask why you describe incarnation of Jyot as "subordination to the Raja?" That Raja is described in Gurbani as enlightened, i.e., merged with the Divine Jyot.
[indent]

ਇਹੁ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੂ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣੇ ॥੧੨॥
eihu raaj jog gur raamadhaas thumh hoo ras jaanae ||12||
O Guru Raam Daas, You alone know the taste of this Raja Yoga. ||12||

ਜਨਕੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਥੁ ਧਰਿਆ ॥
janak soe jin jaaniaa ounaman rathh dhhariaa ||
He alone is enlightened like Janaka, who links the chariot of his mind to the state of ecstatic realization.

ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸਮਾਚਰੇ ਅਭਰਾ ਸਰੁ ਭਰਿਆ ॥
sath santhokh samaacharae abharaa sar bhariaa ||
He gathers in truth and contentment, and fills up the empty pool within.

ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਅਮਰਾ ਪੁਰੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਸੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
akathh kathhaa amaraa puree jis dhaee s paavai ||
He speaks the Unspoken Speech of the eternal city. He alone obtains it, unto whom God gives it.

ਇਹੁ ਜਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਬਣਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੧੩॥
eihu janak raaj gur raamadhaas thujh hee ban aavai ||13||
O Guru Raam Daas, Your sovereign rule, like that of Janak, is Yours alone.
~SGGS Ji ang 1398

[/indent]And same Raj Janak as praising the God through the different Yuga ages.
[indent]

ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਗਲ ਉਧਰੀ ਨਾਮਿ ਲੇ ਤਰਿਓ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ॥
srisatt sagal oudhharee naam lae thariou niranthar ||
The whole world is saved, and carried across, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਹ ਲਗਿ ॥
gun gaavehi sanakaadh aadh janakaadh jugeh lag ||
Sanak and Janak and the others sing His Praises, age after age.

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥
paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak;
You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak,
Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command
of the Primal Lord God.
~SGGS Ji ang 1390
[/indent]
So I don't see how sect of Hindali's are source of the claim of unity between incarnation of Raj Janak, the father of Sita which forms a mystical unity with Ram, like Shiv and Shakti and symbolic of the Divine God manifest in the world. And how if this ancient King got brahmgyaan and merged with the Creator to become Jyoti-Jyot that He is making Guru Nanak as subordinate to anything.

[indent]ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਦੁਇ ਏਕ ਹੈ ਬਿਬ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
The Lord and His devotees are one, there is no difference between them.

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿ ਤਰੰਗ ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਹੀ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੬੦॥
Just as the wave of water, arising in water, merges in water.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 141
[/indent]

[dalsingh101]

Quote

2. How is this denigrating Guru Nanak by subordinating Him to the Rajah? If the claim is literal He IS the Raja, so how can He be subordinate to Himself? And since the Raja is recorded as having become enlightened and obtained bramgyaan and merged with the Divine Jyot as well as having the karma of being in the family of the Yuga Guru lineage, where is the subordination to anything?

From what I can recall (and it has been a many, many years since I came across the reference), the account I'm speaking of portrays Guru Nanak as some form of servant to Raja Janak in a previous existence. I vaguely recall him being referred to as an oil presser.

I'm still trying to find the source and I don't discount the possibility of my recall being less than correct after all these years. But, if true, that is very different to the suggestion that Guru Nanak is Raja Janak reincarnated. It is indeed 'subordination'.

No need to go on about it until sources have been located and checked. (Just in case you get tempted to produce one of your legandarily protracted responses - To your credit you've restrained your impulse to use multiple marginally related images and multicoloured fonts so far).

Quote

In other words, if the purataan Granths are also agreeing on a theme, why would it be credible that "Chandi legend" has a source outside of the Sikh fold or that there is political motivation by British Raj or competing splinter sects, or even Vedantic trained Masands etc, for placing into purataan ideology?? At some point we're going to have to analyze the consistency with which Chandi appears in purataan writings throughout early Sikh history and that She is NOT a later interpolation from outside sources.

You can't discount the biases of writers, even from within the fold, that compell them to add their own interpretations on events. Take a look at the Chaupa Singh rehitnama for blatant examples. Plus given the circumstances of the early Khalsa panth any introduced notion could have easily become widely accepted and transmitted leading to varying forms evolving. So it is certainly not cut and dry.

Let's just say the matter requires more serious research.

In anycase you're making your point blindsided. If you can accuse Bhai Vir Singh of biases and additions/expunging based on their own ideological position, don't then discount the possibility of similar processes taking place when the itihaasik granths you are talking about were originally compiled. Don't go making the mistake of considering them immutable like Gurbani.

[HarjasKaur]

dalsingh101, on 10 February 2010 - 12:29 PM, said:

From what I can recall (and it has been a many, many years since I came across the reference), the account I'm speaking of portrays Guru Nanak as some form of servant to Raja Janak in a previous existence. I vaguely recall him being referred to as an oil presser...

But that has no relationship to analysis of Panth Prakash because according to your post #22

Quote

The next large block to be removed [by Bhai Vir Singh] concerns RajaJanak. According to this, the source of Guru Nanak's sovereignity isRaja Janak.

So this seemingly "anti-Gurmat claim" which is not subordinating Guru Nanak Jyot, but actually basing authority of sovereignty on it, must reflect incarnation and not former servant. So this particular point bears no relationship to anything else. It is only a reference to Raj Janak being the source of Guru Nanak Jyot sovereignty. And, your initial response...

Quote

The Raja Janak stuff is clearly from the same source as the Bala Janam Sakhis, i.e. the Hindalis who tried to create their own rival movement denigrating the Sikh Guru's in their literature. That is the first place we hear of Baba Nanak's subordination to the rajah.

...is misplaced. Because authority of sovereignty is not the same thing as subordination. Moreover, it matches up icely with Gurbani tuuks which claim that Guru Nanak Jyot is in fact the incarnation of the mukta Raj Janak. So it is clearly NOT from the same source as Hindalis, neither is it denigrating or subordinating Guru Nanak.

Moreover, because these tuuks exist in the bani which has Gurgaddhi, they are authoritative and therefore Gurmat. With respect, different sampraday may interpret this different ways. Some few will say literally, some more mainstream will say metaphorically. But either way, the inclusion of such particular descriptions in Panth Prakash should not have been edited out to suit the more modern Singh Sabha interpretation (I am not faulting it, only noting it's divergence from the literalism of Nirmalay and Udasi Panths for example). For one thing, the modern interpretation isn't "wrong" but it does tend to suppress the Puranic linkage between Raj Janak and Guru Nanak Jyot.

It would be improper on the basis of the evidence here to allude anything else, such as implicit denigration or sanatan imposition for political purposes, or ideological bias since that particular reference to Raj Janak IS GURMAT. And hence the ideological bias would be in the editing it away to estrange the idea of it from the modern Panth. And in fact, how often do we encounter the notion that Guru Sahibaan Jyot is the incarnation of the mukt Puranic King?


Next point, is from your post #33

Quote

J.S.Grewal thinks that the Chandi story may have been introduced byChibber to underscore the importance of Brahmins (he was from thatbackground), in that the Khalsa or Dasmesh pita is dependent on themfor evoking Chandi. So only they are able to bring about success forSikhs. This obviously elevates them. I know that Brahminicalinfiltration is almost a cliche in Sikh studies but this may well be agenuine example of possible mischief?

Given the relative scarcity of Sikh literature from that period, anystory that was recorded could easily become widely accepted later on.We have to take this into consideration.

This is a good point and a possibility. But one thing it doesn't account for is the pervasiveness of Chandi in the historical Granths. The other point is the generalization of brahminvaad as being superstitious hypocritical ritualism, when in the context of Guru Sahibaan Court scholars and Mahants of Udasay and Nirmalay Orders it would not be the same thing. For one thing, not everything Hindu Mat = brahminvaad. That's an illogical overgeneralization. Obviously Guru Sahibaan rejected and reformed abuses of brahminvaad very clearly. But can we overgeneralize to say that the bhagat bani of Vaishnav sants was the same thing as brahminvaad? No. Can we overgeneralize to claim the Mahants from Orders which were established alongside purataan Gursikhi, including members of Guru Sahibaan's own families, and educators from Guru Sahibaan own Darbar as being equal to brahminvaad simply because of the persistence of Vedantic and Puranic source material, imagery and traditions?

You see, brahminvaad is a very specific thing having to do with the non-spiritual hypocrisies of abusive caste and not the educational excellence of scholars from a certain lineage. I have a friend who is a Hindu brahmin. And she is the least caste conscious individual. She is very kind-hearted, does lots of seva with the poor, and to blindly accuse her of brahminvaad simply for coming from brahmin family would be an overgeneralization and an injustice.

So the question hinges on whether the Vedantic and Puranic imagery in Panth Prakash is 1. anti-Gurmat, 2. out of context with other historical granths of the time, 3. promoting the oppressive dominance of brahmin caste, i.e., actual brahminvaad, and not simply having sanatan traditions such as pujas being linked to oppressive brahminism. Now we know there are instances in Sikh history where particular pujaries DID in fact discriminate in brahminvaadi fashion. But so far, what I have read, this granth doesn't contain anything justifying brahminvaad. If it could be classed as anything it would be straddling that fence which didn't exist at that historical time between sanatan traditions blending Hindu Mat and Sikh Mat.

Now the question arises, which was original? Was this sanatan Sikhi actually the original, or was something like Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha-ism predating it, then suppressed, and then dominant again?
[indent]
ਦੋਹਰਾ- ਪਾਵਸ ਬੀਤੀ ਅਨਂਦ ਸੋਂ ਸਰਦ ਪ੍ਰਬਿਰਤੀ ਆਦਿ ।
ਪਿਤਰਨਿ ਪਛ ਤੇ ਨੌਰਤੇ ਚੰਡੀ ਜਗਤ ਮਨਾਇ ।੧।
The rainy season passed with much pleasantness, and the cold season was present.
During the Saraadh Navathri (festival worshipping the 9 forms of Devi/Shakti) many people
were worshipping the Chandi (devi). ~Suraj Prakash Fouth Rut, Chapter 32
[/indent]

Quote

You can't discount the biases of writers, even from within the fold, that compell them to add their own interpretations on events.

Of course not. But you can't overlook the fact that every historical granth of the Sikhs is overflowing with saqnatan Vedantic symbolism and references. And NOTHING exists which has a modern slant to it rejecting these things. From an evidentiary standpoint, it isn't even a debate. It is only a hard to swallow pill for the (strict) Singh Sabha interpretation that nothing in history supports their version of it.

Edited by Matheen, 17 February 2010 - 02:03 AM.

[laalsingh]

HarjasKaur, on 09 February 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

Dalsingh101 writes:


Jio, why did the mention survive in Shri Guru Granth Sahib?

[indent]ਕਹੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲ ਸਹਾਰ ਸਪਤ ਦੀਪ ਮਝਾਰ ਲਹਣਾ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
kahu keerath kal sehaar sapath dheep majhaar lehanaa jagathr gur paras muraar ||2||
O Kal Sahaar, chant the Praises of Lehnaa throughout the seven continents; He met with the Lord, and became Guru of the World.

ਤੈ ਤਉ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਬਿਮਲ ਜਾਸੁ ਬਿਥਾਰੁ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸੁਜਨ ਜੀਆ ਕੋ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
thai tho dhrirriou naam apaar bimal jaas bithhaar saadhhik sidhh sujan jeeaa ko adhhaar ||
You hold tight to the Naam, the Name of the Infinite Lord; Your expanse is immaculate. You are the Support of the Siddhas and seekers, and the good and humble beings.

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
thoo thaa janik raajaa aouthaar sabadh sansaar saar rehehi jagathr jal padham beechaar ||
You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on the water.

ਕਲਿਪ ਤਰੁ ਰੋਗ ਬਿਦਾਰੁ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤਾਪ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਆਤਮਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
kalip thar rog bidhaar sansaar thaap nivaar aathamaa thribidhh thaerai eaek liv thaar ||
Like the Elyisan Tree, You cure all illnesses and take away the sufferings of the world. The three-phased soul is lovingly attuned to You alone.
~SGGS Ji ang 1391



ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦਰਸਾਯਉ ॥
agam agochar paarabreham sathigur dharasaayo ||
The Inaccessible and Unfathomable, Supreme Lord God is revealed through the True Guru.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਨਭਉ ਠਹਰਾਯਉ ॥੨॥
gur arajun ghar gur raamadhaas anabho theharaayo ||2||
In the House of Guru Raam Daas, Guru Arjun has appeared as the Embodiment of the Fearless Lord. ||2||

ਜਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਬਰਤਾਇਆ ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਆਲੀਣਾ ॥
janak raaj barathaaeiaa sathajug aaleenaa ||
The benign rule of Raja Janak has been established, and the Golden Age of Sat Yuga has begun.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅਪਤੀਜੁ ਪਤੀਣਾ ॥
gur sabadhae man maaniaa apatheej patheenaa ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is pleased and appeased; the unsatisfied mind is satisfied.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਵ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
gur naanak sach neev saaj sathigur sang leenaa ||
Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Truth; He is blended with the True Guru.
~SGGS Ji ang 1407


[/indent]Moreover, might I ask why you describe incarnation of Jyot as "subordination to the Raja?" That Raja is described in Gurbani as enlightened, i.e., merged with the Divine Jyot.
[indent]

ਇਹੁ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੂ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣੇ ॥੧੨॥
eihu raaj jog gur raamadhaas thumh hoo ras jaanae ||12||
O Guru Raam Daas, You alone know the taste of this Raja Yoga. ||12||

ਜਨਕੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਥੁ ਧਰਿਆ ॥
janak soe jin jaaniaa ounaman rathh dhhariaa ||
He alone is enlightened like Janaka, who links the chariot of his mind to the state of ecstatic realization.

ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸਮਾਚਰੇ ਅਭਰਾ ਸਰੁ ਭਰਿਆ ॥
sath santhokh samaacharae abharaa sar bhariaa ||
He gathers in truth and contentment, and fills up the empty pool within.

ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਅਮਰਾ ਪੁਰੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਇ ਸੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
akathh kathhaa amaraa puree jis dhaee s paavai ||
He speaks the Unspoken Speech of the eternal city. He alone obtains it, unto whom God gives it.

ਇਹੁ ਜਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਬਣਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੧੩॥
eihu janak raaj gur raamadhaas thujh hee ban aavai ||13||
O Guru Raam Daas, Your sovereign rule, like that of Janak, is Yours alone.
~SGGS Ji ang 1398

[/indent]And same Raj Janak as praising the God through the different Yuga ages.
[indent]

ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਗਲ ਉਧਰੀ ਨਾਮਿ ਲੇ ਤਰਿਓ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ॥
srisatt sagal oudhharee naam lae thariou niranthar ||
The whole world is saved, and carried across, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਹ ਲਗਿ ॥
gun gaavehi sanakaadh aadh janakaadh jugeh lag ||
Sanak and Janak and the others sing His Praises, age after age.

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥
dhhann dhhann gur dhhann janam sakayathh bhala jag ||
Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥
paathaal puree jaikaar dhhun kab jan kal vakhaaniou ||
Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥
har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||
You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak;
You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak,
Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command
of the Primal Lord God.
~SGGS Ji ang 1390
[/indent]
So I don't see how sect of Hindali's are source of the claim of unity between incarnation of Raj Janak, the father of Sita which forms a mystical unity with Ram, like Shiv and Shakti and symbolic of the Divine God manifest in the world. And how if this ancient King got brahmgyaan and merged with the Creator to become Jyoti-Jyot that He is making Guru Nanak as subordinate to anything.

[indent]ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਦੁਇ ਏਕ ਹੈ ਬਿਬ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
The Lord and His devotees are one, there is no difference between them.

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿ ਤਰੰਗ ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਹੀ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੬੦॥
Just as the wave of water, arising in water, merges in water.
~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 141
[/indent]

ਹਰਜਸ ਜੀ,
ਮੈਂ ਬਾਕੀ ਦੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਪੋਸਟ ਤਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੜੇ, ਪਰ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਝੂਠ ਮਾਰਦੇ ਝਿਜਕਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ। ਐਵੇਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ 'ਚੋਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਕਾਪੀ ਪੇਸਟ ਕਰੀ ਜਾਂਨੇ ਆਂ। ਜੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਜਨਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਆ ਗਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਮਤਲਬ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਜਨਕ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਸੱਚੀ ਹੈ। ਜਿਵੇਂ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਦੇ ਗਲਤ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੁਣ ਕੱਢੀ ਜਾਨੇ ਆਂ, ਇਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਰਫਿਰਿਆ ਬੈਠਾ ਰਾਜੇ ਜਨਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ 'ਚੋਂ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਲਿਖੀ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੋਣਾ।
ਨਾਲੇ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਤਾਂ ਸੰਬੋਧਨ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਨੂੰ ਹੈ। ਅਗਲੇ ਸੰਬੋਧਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਹਨ। ਬਾਕੀ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦਾ ਵੀ ਜਨਕ/ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੇਰਫੇਰ ਨਾਲ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਝੂਠੀਆਂ ਸੱਚੀਆਂ ਥਿਊਰੀਆਂ ਸਿੱਧ ਨਾ ਕਰੋ।
ਪ੍ਰੋ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿੰਘ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਤੁਕ ਬਾਰੇ ਕੀ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ

Quote

(ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ!) ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ) ਅਪਾਰ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਤੇਰੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਭਾ ਖਿੱਲਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। ਤੂੰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿੱਧ ਅਤੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦਾ ਸਹਾਰਾ ਹੈਂ। (ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ!) ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ (ਨਿਰਲੇਪਤਾ ਵਿਚ) ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ ਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹੈਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਸੀ, ਤਿਵੇਂ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ)। ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ (ਤੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ, ਤੂੰ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਇਉਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ; ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੌਲ ਫੁੱਲ ਜਲ ਵਿਚ।

ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ 'ਚੋਂ ਕੁੲੋਟ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਸੱਚ ਲੱਭਣ ਲਈ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ। ਮਨ ਤਾਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੀ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤਾਂ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਘੁਮਾ ਫਿਰਾ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਗੱਲ ਸਹੀ ਸਿੱਧ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਕਾਪੀ ਪੇਸਟ ਕਰੀ ਜਾਨੇਂ ਆਂ।

[dalsingh101]

Posting mini essays as standard doesn't help either Harjas.

Creating long winded posts which 'thread' umpteen C&P sources together to make a point just doesn't cut it. Plus you seem to make your opinion on matters in no time at all. Firstly you're likely to miss important information for your analysis with this approach. Also, unless your some genius, the rapidity with which your formulate you opinion is quite suspect. Which intelligennt person doesn't employ protracted deep reflection on complex matters and measured statements?

Something like this could require months/years of study to elucidate, looking into various texts in both Gurmukhi and English, but you come out with answers in the matter of minutes or days. Your methodology is faulty. You have to address that.

[Kaljug]

dalsingh101, on 15 February 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

I'm not cut out for this melodramatic learning style with the super length posts to boot. I'll leave you to it. When I've done a bit more research I'll post what I think it means. That isn't likely to be soon though.

I doubt that Harjas is going to be able to privide any evidence that Nirmalas and Udasis consider Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as the incarnation of Raja Janak, but here's what Prof Sahib Singh's teeka says about this tuk:

ਤੈ ਤਉ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਬਿਮਲ ਜਾਸੁ ਬਿਥਾਰੁ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸੁਜਨ ਜੀਆ ਕੋ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥

You hold tight to the Naam, the Name of the Infinite Lord; Your expanse is immaculate. You are the Support of the Siddhas and seekers, and the good and humble beings. You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on the water.

ਤੈ ਤਉ = ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ। ਦ੍ਰਿ੍ਰੜਿਓ = ਦ੍ਰਿੜ੍ਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਾਇਆ ਹੈ। ਅਪਾਰੁ = ਬੇਅੰਤ। ਬਿਮਲ = ਨਿਰਮਲ। ਜਾਸੁ = ਜਸ, ਸੋਭਾ। ਬਿਥਾਰੁ = ਵਿਸਥਾਰ, ਪਸਾਰਾ। ਸੁਜਨ = ਨੇਕ ਲੋਕ। ਰਹਹਿ = ਤੂੰ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ। ਜਗਤ੍ਰ = ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ। ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ = ਜਿਵੇਂ ਜਲ ਵਿਚ ਪਦਮ (ਕੰਵਲ) ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ)। ਜੀਆ = ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ। ਕੋ = ਦਾ।

(ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ!) ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ (ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੇ) ਅਪਾਰ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਾਇਆ ਹੈ, ਤੇਰੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਭਾ ਖਿੱਲਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। ਤੂੰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿੱਧ ਅਤੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦਾ ਸਹਾਰਾ ਹੈਂ। (ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ!) ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ (ਨਿਰਲੇਪਤਾ ਵਿਚ) ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ ਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹੈਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਸੀ, ਤਿਵੇਂ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ)। ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ (ਤੇਰਾ) ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ, ਤੂੰ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਇਉਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ; ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੌਲ ਫੁੱਲ ਜਲ ਵਿਚ।

Here's what the Nirmala Faridkot Teeka says about this tuk:

ਸਰਬ ਕਾ (ਜਨਕ) ਪਿਤਾ ਔ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਰਾਜਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਹੈ ਤੂੰ ਤੋ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹੈਂ ਔ ਇਸ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਬਦ ਹੀ ਸਾਰ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਪੁਨਾ ਬੀਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਐਸੇ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਰਹਿਤੇ ਹੋ ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਕਮਲ ਪਤ੍ਰ ਅਲੇਪ ਰਹਿਤਾ ਹੈ॥

It's evident that this tuk was not to be taken literally by the above and by this following tuk from Gurbani where Guru Ram Das Ji's (Who is the jyot of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji) righteous rule is compared again (like the above tuk) to Raja Janak's reign.

ਇਹੁ ਜਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਬਣਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੧੩॥
O Guru Raam Daas, Your sovereign rule, like that of Janak, is Yours alone. ||13|| (SGGS, ang 1398)

In other places in Gurbani, Raja Janak is accorded the status of Gurmukh and Bhagat, not of the Guru Avatar of Kaliyuga (who is Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji):

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
As Gurmukh, Prahlaad meditated on the Lord, and was saved.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥
As Gurmukh, Janak lovingly centered his consciousness on the Lord's Name.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਸਿਸਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ ॥
As Gurmukh, Vashisht taught the Teachings of the Lord.

ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਕਿਨੈ ਪਾਇਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥
Without the Guru, no one has found the Lord's Name, O my Siblings of Destiny.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਲਹਾਈ ॥੧੩॥
The Lord blesses the Gurmukh with devotion. ||13|| (SGGS, ang 591)

Ang 995 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib describes how Janak reached the status of Gurmukh:

ਜਪਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਕ ਜਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ॥
Suk-deva and Janak meditated on the Naam; following the Guru's Teachings, they sought the Sanctuary of the Lord, Har, Har.

Regards,
K.

[Satgyan-pujari]

I also agree that this tuk is in praise of Guru Maharaj, using some of raja Janaks qualities as a method of teaching,portraying Gurus infinite qualities,The steeks clearly and logically explain the intended message. Good post Kalyug

(p.s i often get called shetan svarup, just outlines my augun, although i could be the devil:

Edited by Satgyan-pujari, 15 February 2010 - 10:49 PM.

[N30 S!NGH]

HarjasKaur, on 15 February 2010 - 11:59 PM, said:

LOL, you cannot even read the Gurmukhi and yet you comment on it as ifyou are some kind of authority! Faridkot Teeka contains the writings ofMANY Nirmalas,

FROM the Singh Sabha period and acting in concert with the Singh Sabha Amritsar Khalsa Diwan. Faridkot teeka was originally written in Braj Bhasha. It isn't the Nirmala writings I'm concerned about. It's those Singh Sabha "revisions and translations" that concern me as they so clearly REJECT the HINDU MAT of the past Nirmalay writings.....get it?

Few things regarding faridkot teeka-

1. It's actually written in gurmukhi script but using hindi language to explain it. Singh sabha is allergic to hindi so it cannot be singh sabha creation but biggest proof historical authors who wrote it.

2. There is no evidence of singh sabha revisions or them editing translations of faridkot teeka. They outright reject it( you can ask our member- The Khalsa fauji, he must be on floor laughing) let using it to edit it, as it was written by nirmale. Lot of puratan samparda's (Rara sahib, taksal, nanaksar) use same copy of original faridkot teeka of sri guru granth sahib.

So please either show proof or retract your claim that faridkot teeka was revised or edited by singh sabha.

[Satgyan-pujari]

Bibi Harjaskaur in the steeks both authours have given there interpretations of the tuk, which read with the pad ched,and commentary DO make sense. Both B.Gurdas ji and P. Sahib Singh show the qaulity of raja Janak in positive and highly regarded sense(udasi, nirlaip whilst living in sansaar).
It is stated raja Janak is Gurmukh and one who enhrines the naam of Wahiguru in their heart, is Gurmukh no matter which yuga they are in, and it shows that NAAM is what liberated the jeevs in hell. The Gurmukh is one with Wahiguru,so there is no question of thier status as mahapurush.
Thier is no question of Guru Nanak in nirgun states is permeating through every jeev sentient or insentient, through all ages incomprehensibly, but in Kalyug He is Satguru Akal Purakh in Sargun form uniquely.

[HarjasKaur]

Satgyan-pujari, on 16 February 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

Bibi Harjaskaur in the steeks both authours have given there interpretations of the tuk, which read with the pad ched,and commentary DO make sense. Both B.Gurdas ji and P. Sahib Singh show the qaulity of raja Janak in positive and highly regarded sense(udasi, nirlaip whilst living in sansaar).
It is stated raja Janak is Gurmukh and one who enhrines the naam of Wahiguru in their heart, is Gurmukh no matter which yuga they are in, and it shows that NAAM is what liberated the jeevs in hell. The Gurmukh is one with Wahiguru,so there is no question of thier status as mahapurush.
Thier is no question of Guru Nanak in nirgun states is permeating through every jeev sentient or insentient, through all ages incomprehensibly, but in Kalyug He is Satguru Akal Purakh in Sargun form uniquely.

This doesn't address whether He is Jyot of Raj Janak who is not in form in Kaliyug. Are you saying Guru Nanak never had any other incarnation? Wouldn't this oppose Shri Dasam Granth Bani that Guru Nanak Jyot is descending from house of Lava and Kusha sons of Ramachandra? Or this is metaphor too and never believed as literal in purataan times?


You are analyzing a valid and mainstream opinion. The question is, did a Hindu Mat opinion exist within Udasi and Nirmalay sampraday which believed in the literal view that Guru Nanak Jyot is incarnation of actual King Janak.

A Gurmukh is one with Waheguru, yes. But even after I posted to show that Vaishnav Bhatts traditionally believe Guru Nanak is actual incarnation of Raj Janak, who actually WROTE the tuuk of Gurbani, the ONLY interpretation allowed is the one where this was used as mere metaphor?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
guramukh baanee breham hai sabadh milaavaa hoe ||
The Word of the Gurmukh is God Himself. Through the Shabad, we merge in Him.
~SGGS Ji ang 39

Quote

Their Vaishnav Faith
The Bhattsbelonged to Brahmin community and were followers of the Vaishnav faith.They held Sri Ram and Sri Krishna as Divine incarnates,and on meetingthe Gurus in Punjab, believed that Guru Nanak and his four successorGurus were Ram and Krishna reborn. Bhatt Kalsahar says,during Satyuga it was Guru Nanak who overpowered Bali; in theTreta-age, Nanak was Ram of the Raghu clan; in Dupar Nanak was in theform of Krishna who delivered Kans. And in the Kali-yuga "You arecalled Nanak, Angad and Amar Das". He adds: "Your praises are sung byRavidas, Jaidev and Trilochan. Also by Kabir, Namdev and Beni, inaddition to innumerable Yogis, Jangams, Vyas and Brahma.

The language of Bhatt-Bani is a mixture, deriving its vocabulary from Sanskrit and employing Bhagat-Bani diction...

Bhatt-Bani has ideological affinity with Guru-Bani as well as Bhagat-Bani. Allthe three centre around the vision of Naam. The Bhatts share withGurbani their faith in the efficacy of Sat-Santokh-Gyan as the vehicleof deliverance. They endorse the name 'Waheguru' for the godhead. Theirfirmly rooted faith in the immortal character of Amrit-Bani brings outtheir Sikh Spirit.

The linkingof Guru Nanak and other Gurus with Raja Janak, may be an off-shoot ofthe Bhatts' way of looking at the historical-mythological tradition ofIndia. They believe it was Nanak and none else who operated in theperson of Ram and Krishna. Bhatt Bani

So the Bhatts who wrote this bani believed it literally, but after that no one else in the Panth ever did, not even the traditional sanatan sampradays? I'm not saying the Singh Sabha view isn't the correct view or the mainstream view. I'm saying there was legitimately another view once in Sikh history and one which has persisted through sanatan sampraday.

Now, I cannot speak authoritatively for Udasis or Nirmalay since I'm not in either of those sampraday. So we will have to ask them to settle the debate. Why not ask them instead of shutting down the debate? It is my belief they have traditionally accepted the literalism of Raj Janak as Guru Nanak Avatar. I had a conversation with one Udasi baba some time ago but can't really give exact quotes and I also spoke with your own forum TSingh in PMs about the Yuga avatars, and he said the Nirmalay believe that Guru Nanak Dev Jyot is Jyot of the Yuga avatars, but that's not specifically Raj Janak.

So why don't we ASK?

Edited by Matheen, 17 February 2010 - 02:10 AM.

[Satgyan-pujari]

Bibiji, like i said Guru Maharaj Nirgun INCOMPREHENSIBLE jyot, Is, Has been, and Always will be permeating through ALL jeevs.

This INCLUDES all the avatars

"Gur Gur eko ves anek"
raag asa M1 ang 12

Edited by Satgyan-pujari, 16 February 2010 - 01:15 PM.

[HarjasKaur]

N30 S!NGH, on 16 February 2010 - 03:44 AM, said:

There are bold statements thrown out, admin have every right to edit them if no sources are provided.

Yes of course as is right. But I don't know how many more sources I have to provide simply to show traditional Nirmalay and Udasay are known for Vednatic HIndu Mat viewpoint corresponding to original Bhatt bani and no modern interpretive work is reflecting that, and therefore that view has been modified in the modern Faridkot teeka, which reflects the comments and opinions of many people DURING time of suppression of sanatan viewpoints in the SS Reform (Yes, those words again. I'm even sick of writing about Singh Sabha now. I'm developing an allergy. I need an anti-Hindu onion.)

Quote

Bibiji, like i said Guru Maharaj Nirgun INCOMPREHENSIBLE jyot, Is Has been and Always will be permeating through ALL jeevs.
This INCLUDES all the avatars

I agree that Satguru is GOD and therefore merged with the nirguna and beyond avataray. But I am still accepting literal Vaishnav Bhatt interpretation of the tuuk that Guru Sahib was literal incarnation of Raj Janak just as literal incarnation of Yuga avatars in lineage of Das Avtaray. But Satguru is definitely this AND BEYOND as you say, there is no doubt. Only He HImself can know Himself, so must be the TIMELESS AKAAL. Only Timeless in form could write Shabda NAAM and bani with energy vibrational Presence of the Shabda Brahman who IS PARABRAHM. One without a second.

[Matheen]

Bhenji, are you basing everything on internet sources? It certainly seems that way.

Quoting a web-site that fails to provide references itself is hardly going to help you prove your point.

[HarjasKaur]

Matheen, on 16 February 2010 - 09:02 AM, said:

Bhenji, are you basing everything on internet sources? It certainly seems that way.

Quoting a web-site that fails to provide references itself is hardly going to help you prove your point.

If I say there was a reform which occured within Sikhi Panth which dramatically shifted the outlook AWAY from traditional and literal sanatan symbology... this is lies?

If I say the Singh Sabha and Gurdwara reform movement removed murthis, whitewashed murals and edited out of traditional texts the sanatan symbology...

I am being called a liar, abusing something about reputation of SinghSabha and lacking proof. What kind of proof can I give you? I cite several sources where these ideological changes in the Panth occurred. You tell me I need to show PROOF. What kind of level of proof do I need for an opinion? A Courtroom? Do you think I should hire a team of lawyers and researchers to interview witnesses and scan in certified and signed photocopies? These things aren't even disputed in the Panth. But they are being hysterically disputed on this thread.

Because underlying that ideological change in the Panth was a movement away from the traditional views (Not perhaps the only views, but fact that within traditional sampraday such as Udasay and Nirmalay, who by all accounts were the pujaries and scholars of the (sanatan, yes literal blending with Hindu Mat) interpretive tradition.

Now people are objecting that traditional Nirmalay Panth didn't believe that and citing a modern COMMENTARY (read interpretive opinion) about GuruGranth Sahib regarding this tuuk about whether Guru Nanak Jyot is actually the incarnation of King Janak which didn't even exist until the Singh Sabha period.

But I don't really know what is being objected to? Everything is a lie? I am bashing now? I am hurting sentiments of Nirmalay Panth for claiming their sampraday traditionally held the view that Guru Nanak Jyot was LITERALLY, and not symbolically as per the Faridkot teeka commentary, the actual incarnation of the Raj.

HOW?
Explain exactly and with equal detail what your objection even is thatyou want to justify demand that my comments be deleted for harmingsentiments and deliberately lying and bashing anybody.

1. I showed that original Bhatts who wrote the Bani of the tuuk that Guru Nanak Jyot is incarnation of King Janak were HINDUS. They wrote from own sampraday understanding. It cannot be that a commentary published in 1905? earliest known date reflects the traditional view? Teeka with panel of revisionists which included Macauliffe and Singh Sabha Scholars such as Bhai Vir Singh And Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha reflects the traditional sanatan view I was talking about? Yet I cited sources which lists them as having a hand in preparation and publishing the Faridkot teeka. Now that proof isn't credible because it's internet source. Can Faridkot teeka views from these scholars be expected to deliberately contradict the earlier traditional one? YES, Because it's coming from ideological opposition. So it reflects the evolution of the opposing view, not the traditional one.

All you're denying is the existence of the debate itself. And you can delete me, but you can never delete the controversy. You can call me a liar, but these sources and this fact will never change that their has been an evolution in mainstream Sikh thought, and that one point in time the traditional view was overlapping the Hindu one.

2. I already provided links to articles from non-biased sources that the Faridkot teeka WAS COMMISSIONED during the height of the Singh Sabha controversy. NATURALLY it's commentaries are going to reflect the understanding of the times as the Panthic viewpoint WAS CHANGING. THAT'S the whole meaning of the REFORM movement.

3. Faridkot teeka started with revision by a TEAM OF SCHOLARS and therefore in published form NEVER reflected only commentary from one sampraday or one scholar. The first draft was originally written by GIANI (Not Mahant) Badan Singh of Sekhvariwas. Now, you are accusing this is untrue?

]What level of proof do you require?

A. I cited the Sikh-History article on Giani Sampraday which references clearly at the end of the page citation for source is:

1. Copyright © Harbans Singh "The encyclopedia of Sikhism."

B. I cited A Bibliography of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Anoop Singh, Published 27th February to 8th May, 2005 on The Pathic Weekly which has the disclaimer:
"This bibliography was subsequently censored by The Panthic Weekly andremoved from its site." Which has a rather extensive list of reference citations including:

• Works Cited:

• Amarjit Singh, ed. Teekakari, Viakhiakari Te Pattarkari, Kujh Dristikaun. (Seminar paper) Patiala: Punjabi University,1989.

• Gurnek Singh. Guru Granth Sahib: Interpretation, Meaning and Nature. Delhi: National Book Shop, 1998.

The book is based upon author's doctoral dissertation.

• Jeevan Deol. "The Minas and Their Literature." Journal of the American Oriental Society 118 (1998): 172-184.

• Joginder Singh. Japji de Teeke: Samikhyatmak Adhyan. Patiala: Srimati Mohinder Kaur, 1981.

• Piar Singh. "Gurbani Teeka Parnalian." Nanak Parkash Patrika, 20(2). Patiala: Punjabi University, 1985

[color="#2f4f4f"][i]Bhenji, are you basing everything on internet sources? It certainly seems that way.
[]Quoting a web-site that fails to provide references itself is hardly going to help you prove your point.

If the internet references are not authoritative enough

then I most certainly am not going to rely on the personal stated beliefs of all of you
in your counter opinions relying solely on the Faridkot TEEKA

which you cannot even establish was originating with Nirmalay only
as it has always been described as a collaborative effort between sampraday!

WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES?

An opinion based on the teeka (commentary)

An opinion based on an opinion?


sorry, edit for bad formatting.

Edited by Matheen, 17 February 2010 - 02:14 AM.

[Matheen]

You have still not provided any proof to back up your idea that Guru Sahib was an Avtar of Raja Janak. Such an idea is not presented anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Sri Dasam Granth (where a detailed biography is given), Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaaran or by any puratan samparda.

I have heard some Sampardas say that a certain Sant was Raja Janak, but never Guru Sahib.

There are Sampardas that abhor the Singh Sabha and others that developed hundreds of miles away from Punjab, away from Singh Sabha influence.

You made the claim, you provide the proof. It isn't just the Fareedkot Teeka that backs up our views, some of the members here have studied Gurbani and don't rely on translations as much as others. There is also katha from Sants, who were taught by those before them and so on, right up to Guru Sahib themselves.

The books cited in your post do not link Guru Sahib to Raja Janak either.

The totally irrelevant topic of murtis is easily resolved, but this topic is not the place.

Guru Rakha.

Edited by Matheen, 16 February 2010 - 08:43 PM.