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Bhai Vir Singh On Devi


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Here’s an attempt at translating a small opening portion of Devi Poojan partaal by Bhai Vir Singh (the original Panjabi text is provided as attachments). I should explain at the outset that I undertake such projects mainly to develop my own understanding of Sikhi itihaas and historiography and lately, to help expand my appallingly rudimentary Panjabi language skills. This last thing is something I have been putting off for years and I recently came to realise that if one doesn’t grab the bull by the horns sooner rather than later, you can easily pass your life without ever having more than a basic grasp of your mother tongue through simple procrastination. I have another more utilitarian reason too, in that I am currently trying to teach my 10 year old nephew Panjabi and need to brush up for that! Please accept this brief extract in this context as I am absolutely certain that it will contain numerous errors. Feel completely free to correct me and point out potential improvements - if you feel thus inclined. If the extract doesn’t read too smoothly, it may be due to my adopting quite a literal style of translation. I believe this helps take us closer to the original meaning.

That being explained, I must add; I know that people sometimes get a tad emotional, upset or even abusive when discussing Singh Sabha individuals, literature or the movement in general. Regardless of your position in the Singh Sabha-Sanatan debate, there is absolutely no reason for this. I was heavily influenced by Singh Sabha thought via literature growing up, I make no attempt to hide this fact. Despite this, I do acknowledge that in highlighting certain features of Sikhi over others and dealing with the ground realities of the enormous political, social and cultural change of their times, some actions, that we may rightly question now, took place. So affinity doesn’t exclude critical evaluation. What this doesn’t mean however is that we can ignorantly ignore everything about the lehar and characterise it as ‘wrong’ in its entirety. It took me many years to shed my prejudice of what we can call sanatan or Hindu mat, and I now recognise that there are overlaps with this and aspects of Sikhi. The heavy use of Indic metaphor and allegory in the Sikh written word compels us to develop an understanding of these schools of thought for our own purpose. Similarly, some sanatanists would do well to overcome their own prejudice of the Singh Sabha lehar in order to evaluate it comprehensively.

Onto the contents! This experience was yet another eye opening one in my study of Sikh itihaas on a number of levels. Firstly we can clearly see how western sources and methodologies had come to influence Sikh literature of this period not only through the given references but also in the method of presenting various alternate hypothesis for explanations. Also easily discernable is the attempt to rationalise the mythological, even in the brief extract provided. The origins of devi are discussed and related to real life places, and possible historical events. That overt Victorian obsession with skin colour, itself strongly connected to the development of theories such as the ‘Aryan invasions’ seems to have seeped itself into the analytical thought processes of the author too. A preoccupation with the theories of conquest of the darker skinned by lighter skinned invaders can be detected in the piece. Obviously the sources of such characterisations were the new imperial ‘annexing masters’ of Panjab and one can find more about the way in which such stories were manipulated to buttress and justify white rule over colonised ‘heathen races’ in recently published works such as that by William Dalrymple.

In the final analysis, what I have come to believe is that the piece represents a collision of sorts, where Sikh thought meets head on with Eurocentric, ‘post enlightenment thinking. There is no denying that Sikhs were on the defensive at this time for obvious reasons but the work of the Sabhas were pioneering in that they attempted to explain the faith through a relatively new but powerful paradigm, one which we can say (with hindsight) has become so globally influential that it is likely that even those directly involved with its precursors would not have had an idea of just how much it would change much of the world around us.

Regarding the Sanatan versus Singh Sabha debate; I’m increasingly of the opinion that the best course forward is one where we retain the classical beauty of Sikhi, some of which can be found from perceived sanatan as well as other traditional sampardaya sources, whilst at the same time confidently facing important modernistic schools of thought and trends. The problem has always been that each of these two sides of the coin have become antagonistic towards each other to the extent that some sort of implied mutual exclusion presides. Perhaps the emphasis should now be to utilise cognitions from analysing both perspectives (historically represented by the Amritsar and Lahore sabhas), and using these to mend any fissures amongst us? A task more easily said than done given our nature.

I would like to acknowledge the folks at Panjab Digital Library for making the original publication available on their site and for the priceless sewa they perform in preserving and making Sikh/Panjabi literature available to the wider public. God bless you.

Devi poojan partaal – Bhai Vir Singh (Published in 1963)

Devi in Hindu thought.

Whenever we try to investigate the truth behind any person worshiped by Hindus we confront many difficulties. It is the same when trying to establish the truth behind the worship of devi. Any attempts at uncovering and finding [facts] result in one being beset with an equal amount of complications. If we try to develop an understanding based on investigation and exploration it appears that prior to the arrival of the Arya race in India, some of the original dark skinned inhabitants around the Vindhyachal mountains, were worshippers of ‘Kali’. Kali was thus an idol these people venerated. Generally, those people who were referred to as ‘thags’ were her devotees. This grasp of the relationship between Vindhyachal area and devi survives in Hindu thought till the present day. Bhai Santokh [?] Singh writes in [source unclear] that devi, tired of killing demons, and having lost [her war], arrives at the Vindhyachal where she installs a small figure and settles down - because of this, the place is also known as ‘Vindhyachal vaasnee’ [vaas referring to an abode or dwelling]. Such a named place exists roughly where the Vindhya mountains and Ganges meet and she (Kali) is worshipped there, next to an area called Mirzapur. They say the blood of sacrifices made in front of the idol there, never dries*.

Some people have expressed the possibility that perhaps Kali was a queen of the dark skinned inhabitants of the Vindhyachal region who later came to be worshipped as a goddess. She repeatedly fought with the invading Arya clan armies and people referred to her enemies as demons (asuras). Those who support this theory state that devi [in pictorial representations] is of a dark hue whilst the heads of the enemies she has slain with own hands are of a white complexion (implying they are heads of Aryans†).

The devotees of the Kali referred to as ‘Vindhyachal Vaasnee’ (resident of Vindhyachal) were certainly members of the ‘thag’ community. Thags were an old sect, within which Muslims too were incorporated, but prior to the Muslims, this cult existed even before the [arrival of the] Aryans. Members would gain the trust of people, after which they would strangle them with a rope or handkerchief in order to rob them. They considered this [activity] to be their profession and did not recognise it as a sin. After the killing they would perform some religious rituals, involving the worship of an axe but mainly in homage to devi, to whom much of the stolen goods were ceremoniously offered. These people considered everything they were doing to be under the orders of ‘Kali’ herself**. The Chinese traveler Hiuen Tsiang, referring to his own past, has described how when having left Ayodhaya to tour Haymukh, he was captured by thags along the way and selected to be sacrificed in front of devi ***. So, in this way Kali was an ancient object of worship as well as a fear inspiring icon for the authentic inhabitants [of the region].

When we investigate [the subject] from the ‘Arya Hindu’ perspective we find that instances of the of the word ‘Kali’ do indeed occur in the Vedas but not with the meaning of associated with devi. Instead [we find that] it is the name given to one of the seven tongues of Agni [the fire goddess], for whom sacrificial fires were undertaken. Of Agni’s seven tongues, ‘Kali’ was a dark and terrifying tongue††. These deities of the Vedas were mostly presented in a form to be worshipped [sentence meaning unclear]. We have some mention of human sacrifices in the preVedic period or during the early stages of its emergence¥; but later, the sages of the Vedas replaced these with accounts of horse sacrifices. Overall, the Vedic deities were the embodiment of radiance and not terror. The actual meaning of dev is illumination and it is said that awareness of devi amongst the Hindus, started after a time in this fashion. Following worship in all of the Vedic gods, they started to believe in 3 chief deities, then after some time they started to worship the three powers of the deities¥¥. The deity called ‘Rudar’ in the Vedas is in actuality the god of ‘thunder and tornadoes’, however, eventually he came to be recognised as ‘Shiv’ in the Hindu trinity, who possessed the power of destruction and the ability to absorb the world [to purge it??]. At about the time of the emergence of the doctrine of the three principal gods; Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv and their 3 powers, Parbati became equated with Shiv’s power and his attributes of destruction and absorption [of the world] fell within this [conceptualisation].

In the Mahabharat one can read many references to devi in the position of ‘wife to Shiv’ under different names. Thus, the main ideas of the worship of the trinity [of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv] as well as the mode (and more), all emerge during the era of the Puranasπ.

Even if there are verses in Mahabharat which describe devi as the object of sacrifices involving meat and alcohol, it is not correct to say that Shaktism or Tantric practices were taking place at this time because we find no mention of Tantric philosophy when we read the Chinese traveller’s [Hiuen Tsiang] manuscript. Amar Kosh too, (which was written some years before this time, perhaps in the 5th century, Christian era), doesn’t contain any explanation of this word [devi] under any of the schools of thought [it describes] nor is mention made in any other ancient ‘explanatory texts’.

Some have also considered the possibility that devi may have been a great Hindu warrior, who fought with Saka invaders and slaughtered the leaders of those 'demons' and that ballads and stories concerning her bravery, presented her in the form of devi. ‘The Saka wars’ happened mainly in the north of India and it is here that she is well known in her tiger riding, powerful, demon destroying form. Bhai Ditt Singh has posited the possibility that devis were the brave royal maidens of the Rajputs and the rakhsas were Maharatas, who would turn up to try and take the pretty Rajput girls away. Back then, those Rajput females who fought bravely alongside the men and obtained victory, would become famous and were worshipped. So these historically based, regal women were the root of the devi story [according to the theory]. After informing us of the way the names of the rakhsas: Sambha, Nisumbh, Dhandoo and Aadayka align with the Maharata names (Sambha ji, Nisumbh ji, Chand ji and Aadayka) and presenting evidence of this, we are told that the section of the Dasam Granth based on the Markanday Puran, the story of Chandi; describes devi as a young and beautiful women. One day whilst she was seated somewhere, Sambh, a demon’s brother passes by, and upon seeing her he feels a strong desire to secure his brother’s betrothal to her. In this way the narrative agrees with [the theory] in that it is rooted in an incident of devi, the daughter of some warrior king, who fights victoriously against a tyrant king to preserve her essence.

Giani Gyan Singh believes that there is a possibility that prior to 665 AD (Christian dating) an Iranian queen ‘Sameerma’ occupied northern India and was involved in constant battles with the lowland kings, Sumbh and Nisumbh. It is thought that the Padam Puran was created by calling this very ‘Sameerma’ devi and representing her battles. By depicting her as a queen of the mountainous regions, she may have come to be worshipped there.

From the above we come to learn that ‘Kali’ was an icon worshipped by the older inhabitants of India and that someone from amongst the Aryans, through some jugglery [later], initiated the school of thought of devi linking it to a previous one centred on the various powers (shakti) of their deities.

*Dawson[?] - Classical dictionary of Hindu mythology.

†Woodriffe[?] - Shakti and Shakta

**Encyclopedia Britannica 8th edition

***Hind da puritan itihaas. Tract number 442. Pg. 13.

†† Dawson

¥ See Rig Ved Ashtak...........xxxx

¥¥ Encyclopedia Britannica

π Dawson (I stopped including footnotes at this point to save time! D.)

Edited by dalsingh101
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The original Panjabi text.

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Edited by dalsingh101
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Thanks alot dalsingh and i agree with you on the point about trying to improve our punjabi linguistic skills i just recently learnt it myself so feel free to give any tips on ways to improve understanding punjabi skills. Though i can read slowly most of what i read in punjabi specially when it comes to sikhi material i have a hard time to understand.

Great stuff though you should venture more into the field of translating

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thoughts out loud. You may want to read the translation first.

In this second extract Bhai Vir Singh continues with the description of the development of the Chandi story, started in the original post. Her current form is described as being derived from the fusion of two distinct objects of worship of two different communities which is then given a philosophic interpretation which essentially melds the two conflicting entities.

Whilst translating, one thing that quickly became apparent is that the title of this section is misleading. What it contains is definitely not “Devi according to Hindu thought” but an exposition of Hindu devi from a western, orientalist perspective. Bhai Vir Singh has relied heavily on English texts for the outlined ideas as can be seen by the footnotes.

I found myself feeling surprisingly uncomfortable at times whilst translating. It eventually dawned on me that some of the language, tenor and tone of the ideas I was confronting would be ones considered unacceptable by many educated people today and that this was the source of my discomfort. We are increasingly learning more and more about the dynamics and embedded nature of racist ideology within institutes, as well as within written and artistic representations these days, through work such as that on Critical Race Theory and Edward Said’s seminal postcolonial work, Orientalism. The translated piece appears to provide us with some text book examples of the kind of problems tackled by the aforementioned theories. Here the representation of the dark, indigenous tribal folk of India is portrayed as evil, inferior, crude even frightening. This extends to their object and mode of veneration. They are thags, member of a murderous cult. In contrast, the characterisation of the deity of the lighter skinned Aryans is pleasant. Judgemental values, of the type passed on the indigenous inhabitants, are muted or non-existent for the Aryans. They are able to form higher level conceptualisations unlike the base Kali devotees. Speaking in a historical context, and with the benefit of hindsight, it seems apparent that the European colonialists of the past few centuries constructed and identified with the image of the fair Aryan invader, and utilised this narrative for their own agenda. What was of interest to me is that we seem to have found these ideas embedded within a Sikh text.

A search on one of the authors mentioned a few times in the footnotes of Bhai Vir Singh’s work provided some illumination. Sir Charles Eliot (8/1/1862 – 16/3/1931), the author of Hinduism and Buddhism, and a brilliant linguist is also famed for having introduced and propagated white supremacist policies in East Africa whilst working as an administrator there. Given that such a person’s biases have come to be indirectly incorporated into Bhai Sahib’s work, I think we certainly have a strong case for withholding full acceptance of the notion that what has been outlined in the text is an accurate representation of Hindu thought. Rather, it is an interpretation of Hindu practice, past and present, by men with their own imperially motivated, racialised and politicised agendas (all of which they saw as inextricably linked). This worldview influences their writing in no small measure.

An important question for Sikhs to ask amongst themselves is whether Bhai Vir Singh had any awareness of the objectives that informed some of the work and ideas he himself utilises and whether he consciously or unwittingly provided collaboration for the theories propagated by the colonialists? This then leads on to a wider question of the relationship between prominent members of the Singh Sabha lehar and the British imperialists ruling India at the time. A topic which frequently leads to unnecessary and excessive defensiveness on the part of certain Sikhs. Certainly some men of Panjab were actively and stoutly resisting their perceived overlords, during this period. What was the Singh Sabha perspective on this? Especially as they seem to have considered themselves to be the vanguard of ‘Sikhism’? That being said, I don’t doubt that those who are blindly opposed to the lehar and all it stood for are likely to leap upon the opportunity to vent further disdain on the movement, which is an impulse they should resist, for the sake of balance and knowledge.

On a more contemporary note, given the conspicuous rise of caste based fissures within Panjabis in their homeland today, I wonder if the exogamous ideas introduced by Europeans (such as Aryan and Scythian invasion theories) played a part in calcifying and promoting factionalism within the panth? No one is disputing that certain attitudes are likely to have existed prior to the ‘annexation’ but it would still be of interest for Sikhs to establish what they can about the exact nature of how such externally introduced notions, caused change to existing perceptions and attitudes amongst the panth. Speaking bluntly, I have to ask, did some of our own brothers adopt the broad underlying principles of this alien thought? Where they encouraged to identify with the overlords more than their counterparts for reasons obviously beneficial to the new rulers (and presumably to themselves) at the expense of unity and is there a legacy from that today? Analysing the works of influential figures related to this period of Sikh history (such as Bhai Vir Singh), can, I believe, play an important role in helping to us determine such things.

I've attached the original Panjabi text used, for anyone interested. Any constructive criticism is welcomed. I'd like to thank the brothers at Sikhawareness.com who helped elucidate certain concepts and words for me and made the job of translating less mundane than it may of been. Laal Singh, Chatanga, Kalyug, Mech Jannat and Weedol - thank you (sorry if I've forgotten anyone).

Part 2:

(continued: Devi in Hindu thought)

It should also be remembered that when Shivji’s wife is being described, it is as the daughter of the Aryan king of Kanakla, Dakya Prajapati. From this we can infer that the gentle devi* is the daughter of Aryan thought and the fearsome devi was the black mother figure of the original darked hued inhabitants [of India]. The Himalayas have also been considered to be Parbati’s father and from this we can correctly say that the Himalayan daughter is the Aryan devi and that the ‘Kali’ resident in the Vindhyachal mountains is the devi of the ancient, true residents [of India].

When the Aryan folk mixed with the real races [of the region], those people were eclipsed by Vedic thought so that their modes of worship came to be mixed together. In this way, the two schools of thought of devi, represented by the Himalayan ‘church’ and the Vindhyachal vasnee kali, met in one location but both of their forms and colours were still represented separately.

All accounts thus point at battles, peace agreements and co-habitation between the warriors of the darker skinned ancient Indian inhabitants and the Aryan clans, causing to them influence each other. At this time the two distinct schools of devi met and led to the creation of a single devi figure, who was considered to have two forms, one tender and the other terrifying. The names of these gentler forms were: Oma (meaning bright), Gori (the white skinned), Parbati (daughter of Parbat), Jugdumbha (mother of the earth) and Bhavani Adh**.

With the dread-inspiring representation of devi we find names of the following types: Kali, Shyami, Chandi, Chandika (fierce), Bhayrvee (fearsome). It was to this form that goats, young buffalos and so forth were given in bloody sacrifices. It is also apparent that at some previous point, human sacrifices also took place. The mention of some of these things that were considered normal practice by Tantric folk [then], is uncomfortable and because of this, details of these activities are left out. Kali’s costume is dark skin, her form is terrifying and she desires blood. Snakes and decapitated heads hang from her neck. Durga (that obtained through difficulty) has a beautiful form, presented as fair skinned and riding a lion giving an impression of deftness and agility.

Bhavani Omi, Parbati, Durga, Chandhi or Kali, whatever facts lie behind these devi beliefs, in India, with the expansion of Hindu philosophical thought, a form was chosen that allowed the practitioners of higher Tantrism to attempt to present matters with a philosophical hue. This is what we will deliberate and draw conclusions upon now.

From the thoughts derived from an individual called devi, the Hindu mind developed beliefs of a philosophic nature, and this is that ‘birth and death’ are linked. So that we are provided with birth, existence and the essence of life (ਜੀਵਨ ਰਸ) from the beautiful and kind form, whilst this same source also provides us with something with a death like, horrific quality [interpretation of ਸ਼ੈ is very difficult here]. And so, with these God (ਬ੍ਰਹਮ) like capabilities she is immanent and neutral with the power to sustain life in her gentler form and in her frightening image she takes it away***.

Those who present this in a philosophical manner**** say that the word ‘Kali’ derives from the word ‘kal’ (meaning time), and that very power which she manifests from within time, she is able to draw into herself so she is able to devour time itself. Because of this she is Kali. In this way, Kali in the ‘timeless’ interpretation, can be considered to have become an expression of the one ultimate reality (ਬ੍ਰਹਮ). Kali is described as ornamented with decapitated heads, corpses and crematorium ash because she is the power which can absorb [and thus destroy] of all creation.

The reason devi is called black coloured is because she is able to take all visible things to nothingness and remove the world from time itself+. Then she is nude - clothed in nothing but the four directions of the compass – stark naked. Because if she is clothed, she appears constrained, so referring to her as being ‘without garment’ she becomes unrestricted. Then she is illusion, from which the world is created, in this fashion she is a creative form of power of the transcendental great supreme reality (ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ). Because of this she is sometimes portrayed as standing in Shiv’s white corpse. Shiv is white because he is the manifestation of pure consciousness. The appearance of the cadaver is not to signify lifelessness but rather her ancient, untainted, unchanging, single minded and incorruptible form. The dead body upon which she stands signifies the altering, creative, destructive form and is an icon of these powers. In reality both of these are one, one being’s two colours. One, a single incorruptible, unalterable essence and the other of change, itself a visible attribute of the unchanging.

At this point the matter that needs reflecting upon is that on one hand we have the original forms of devi in the shape of the fear-inspiring statues installed in the Vindhya temple near Mirzapur and the Kalibari temple in Calcutta, where Tantrism as well as other sorcery and various superstitious practices take place. Whilst on the other hand we have the higher ‘intellectualised devi’ as outlined above. Both are astonishingly conflicting conceptualisations between which there is immeasurable difference. What is a thinking person supposed to think? Which one of these is Guru Gobind Singh ji supposed to have invoked, according to that written by the poets? Because the authors of Gurbilas and Gur Prataap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their works]

For a while, the worship of Kali by the wild, tribal [indigenous] folk involved offerings of the blood of the innocent (at the hand of the thags etc.) before the [Kali] effigy. Then we have the war-spirit inspiring workings of the Durga etc. and in another place we have the essence of Tantrism. Whatever they are, if we ignore them all and try to distinguish the truth of the highest interpretation given by devotees of devi, we find that these writers have developed their school of thought through deliberation and by stretching and distilling their understanding of devi and taking it into a philosophic form. Like some have come believe in the philosophy that subordinate to Brahma, a creating, nurturing and destroying immanent being called “Ishwaar” exists. Similarly, in Vaishnavism, beneath the transcendental supreme soul, stems a world unifying and consciousness melding immanent being has been understood to exist, who is referred to as Vishnu. In this very way, devi is an immanent entity, who because of the transcendental supreme soul’s untaintable (ਅਲੇਪ) nature has been established as the creative, sustaining and destroyer of earth, in higher philosophic Shaktic thought.

Now we will attempt to find the place of devi in Gurmat. For this purpose, we will start with the higher school of thought, which Hindu philosophy presents as ‘transcendental Ishwaarat’ and proceed with that: -

(beginning of new section entitled Gurmat vich devi)

*In the northern mountains very early idols of Vaishu devi, Kheer bhavani, Chintpoorni presented in a gentle manner can be found at separate places even today.

**Dawson.

*** Sir Charles Elliot

**** Woodriffe

+ Long footnote

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Edited by dalsingh101
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I put the two sections together and made some minor tweaks.

Devi poojan partaal – Bhai Vir Singh

Part 1:

Devi in Hindu thought.

Whenever we try to investigate the truth behind any being worshiped by Hindus we confront many difficulties. It is the same when trying to establish the truth behind the worship of devi. Any attempts at uncovering and finding [facts] result in one being beset with an equal amount of complications. If we try to develop an understanding based on investigation and exploration it appears that prior to the arrival of the Arya race in India, some of the original dark skinned inhabitants around the Vindhyachal mountains, were worshippers of ‘Kali’. Kali was thus an idol these people venerated. Generally, those people who were referred to as ‘thags’ were her devotees. This grasp of the relationship between Vindhyachal area and devi survives in Hindu thought till the present day. Bhai Santokh Singh writes in [source unclear] that devi, tired of killing demons, and having lost [her war], arrives at the Vindhyachal where she installs a small figure and settles down - because of this, the place is also known as ‘Vindhyachal vaasnee’ [vaas referring to an abode or dwelling]. Such a named place exists roughly where the Vindhya mountains and Ganges meet and she (Kali) is worshipped there, next to an area called Mirzapur. They say the blood of sacrifices made in front of the statue there, never dries*.

Some people have expressed the possibility that perhaps Kali was a queen of the dark skinned inhabitants of the Vindhyachal region who later came to be worshipped as a goddess. She repeatedly fought with the invading Arya clan armies and people referred to her enemies as demons (asuras). Those who support this theory state that devi [in pictorial representations] is of a dark hue whilst the heads of the enemies she has slain with own hands are of a white complexion (implying they are heads of Aryans†).

The devotees of the Kali referred to as ‘Vindhyachal Vaasnee’ (resident of Vindhyachal) were certainly members of the ‘thag’ community. Thags were an old sect, within which Muslims too were incorporated, but prior to the Muslims, this cult existed even before the [arrival of the] Aryans. Members would gain the trust of people, after which they would strangle them with a rope or handkerchief in order to rob them. They considered this [activity] to be their profession and did not recognise it as a sin. After the killing they would perform some religious rituals, involving the worship of an axe but mainly in homage to devi, to whom much of the stolen goods were ceremoniously offered. These people considered everything they were doing to be under the orders of ‘Kali’ herself**. The Chinese traveler Hiuen Tsiang, referring to his own past, has described how when having left Ayodhaya to tour Haymukh, he was captured by thags along the way and selected to be sacrificed in front of devi ***. So, in this way Kali was an ancient object of worship as well as a fear inspiring icon for the authentic inhabitants [of the region].

When we investigate [the subject] from the ‘Arya Hindu’ perspective we find that instances of the of the word ‘Kali’ do indeed occur in the Vedas but not with the meaning associated with devi. Instead [we find that] it is the name given to one of the seven tongues of Agni [the fire goddess], for whom sacrificial fires were undertaken. Of Agni’s seven tongues, ‘Kali’ was a dark and terrifying tongue††. These deities of the Vedas were mostly presented in a form to be worshipped [sentence meaning unclear]. We have some mention of human sacrifices in the preVedic period or during the early stages of its emergence¥; but later, the sages of the Vedas replaced these with accounts of horse sacrifices. Overall, the Vedic deities were the embodiment of radiance and not terror. The actual meaning of dev is illumination and it is said that awareness of devi amongst the Hindus, started after a time in this fashion. Following worship in all of the Vedic gods, they started to believe in 3 chief deities, then after some time they started to worship the three powers of the deities¥¥. The deity called ‘Rudar’ in the Vedas is in actuality the god of ‘thunder and tornadoes’, however, eventually he came to be recognised as ‘Shiv’ in the Hindu trinity, who possessed the power of destruction and the ability to absorb the world [to purge it??]. At about the time of the emergence of the doctrine of the three principal gods; Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv and their 3 powers, Parbati became equated with Shiv’s power and his attributes of destruction and absorption [of the world] fell within this [conceptualisation].

In the Mahabharat one can read many references to devi in the position of ‘wife to Shiv’ under different names. Thus, the main ideas of the worship of the trinity [of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv] as well as the mode (and more), all emerge during the era of the Puranasπ.

Even if there are verses in Mahabharat which describe devi as the object of sacrifices involving meat and alcohol, it is not correct to say that Shaktism or Tantric practices were taking place at this time because we find no mention of Tantric philosophy when we read the Chinese traveller’s [Hiuen Tsiang] manuscript. Amar Kosh too, (which was written some years before this time, perhaps in the 5th century, Christian era), doesn’t contain any explanation of this word [devi] under any of the schools of thought [it describes] nor is mention made in any other ancient ‘explanatory texts’.

Some have also considered the possibility that devi may have been a great Hindu warrior, who fought with Saka invaders and slaughtered the leaders of those 'demons' and that ballads and stories concerning her bravery, presented her in the form of devi. ‘The Saka wars’ happened mainly in the north of India and it is here that she is well known in her tiger riding, powerful, demon destroying form. Bhai Ditt Singh has posited the possibility that devis were the brave royal maidens of the Rajputs and the rakhsas were Maharatas, who would turn up to try and take the pretty Rajput girls away. Back then, those Rajput females who fought bravely alongside the men and obtained victory, would become famous and were worshipped. So these historically based, regal women were the root of the devi story [according to the theory]. After informing us of the way the names of the rakhsas: Sambha, Nisumbh, Dhandoo and so forth, align with the Maharata names (Sambha ji, Nisumbh ji, Chand ji etc.) and presenting evidence of this, we are told that the section of the Dasam Granth based on the Markanday Puran, the story of Chandi; describes devi as a young and beautiful women. One day whilst she was seated somewhere, Sambh, a demon’s brother passes by, and upon seeing her he feels a strong desire to secure his brother’s betrothal to her. In this way the narrative agrees with [the theory] in that it is rooted in an incident of devi, the daughter of some warrior king, who fights victoriously against a tyrant king to preserve her essence.

Giani Gyan Singh believes that there is a possibility that prior to 665 AD (Christian dating) an Iranian queen ‘Sameerma’ occupied northern India and was involved in constant battles with the lowland kings, Sumbh and Nisumbh. It is thought that the Padam Puran was created by calling this very ‘Sameerma’ devi and representing her battles. By depicting her as a queen of the mountainous regions, she may have come to be worshipped there.

From the above we come to learn that ‘Kali’ was an icon worshipped by the older inhabitants of India and that someone from amongst the Aryans, through some jugglery [later], initiated the school of thought of devi tying it to a previous one that was centred on the various powers (shakti) of their deities.

*Dawson[?] - Classical dictionary of Hindu mythology.

†Woodriffe[?] - Shakti and Shakta

**Encyclopedia Britannica 8th edition

***Hind da puritan itihaas. Tract number 442. Pg. 13.

†† Dawson

¥ See Rig Ved Ashtak...........xxxx

¥¥ Encyclopedia Britannica

π Dawson

-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2:

(continued: Devi in Hindu thought)

It should also be remembered that when Shivji’s wife is being described, it is as the daughter of the Aryan king of Kanakla, Dakya Prajapati. From this we can infer that the gentle devi* is the daughter of Aryan thought and the fearsome devi was the black mother figure of the original darked hued inhabitants [of India]. The Himalayas have also been considered to be Parbati’s father and from this we can correctly say that the Himalayan daughter is the Aryan devi and that the ‘Kali’ resident in the Vindhyachal mountains is the devi of the ancient, true residents [of India].

When the Aryan folk mixed with the real races [of the region], those people were eclipsed by Vedic thought so that their modes of worship came to be mixed together. In this way, the two schools of thought of devi, represented by the Himalayan ‘church’ and the Vindhyachal vasnee kali, met in one location but both of their forms and colours were still represented separately.

All accounts thus point at battles, peace agreements and co-habitation between the warriors of the darker skinned ancient Indian inhabitants and the Aryan clans, causing to them influence each other. At this time the two distinct schools of devi met and led to the creation of a single devi figure, who was considered to have two forms, one tender and the other terrifying. The names of these gentler forms were: Oma (meaning bright), Gori (the white skinned), Parbati (daughter of Parbat), Jugdumbha (mother of the earth) and Bhavani Adh**.

With the dread-inspiring representation of devi we find names of the following types: Kali, Shyami, Chandi, Chandika (fierce), Bhayrvee (fearsome). It was to this form that goats, young buffalos and so forth were given in bloody sacrifices. It is also apparent that at some previous point, human sacrifices also took place. The mention of some of these things that were considered normal practice by Tantric folk [then], is uncomfortable and because of this, details of these activities are left out. Kali’s costume is dark skin, her form is terrifying and she desires blood. Snakes and decapitated heads hang from her neck. Durga (that obtained through difficulty) has a beautiful form, presented as fair skinned and riding a lion giving an impression of deftness and agility.

Bhavani Omi, Parbati, Durga, Chandhi or Kali, whatever facts lie behind these devi beliefs, in India, with the expansion of Hindu philosophical thought, a form was chosen that allowed the practitioners of higher Tantrism to attempt to present matters with a philosophical hue. This is what we will deliberate and draw conclusions upon now.

From the thoughts derived from an individual called devi, the Hindu mind developed beliefs of a philosophic nature, and this is that ‘birth and death’ are linked. So that we are provided with birth, existence and the essence of life (ਜੀਵਨ ਰਸ) from the beautiful and kind form, whilst this same source also provides us with something with a death like, horrific quality [interpretation of ਸ਼ੈ is very difficult here]. And so, with these God (ਬ੍ਰਹਮ) like capabilities she is immanent and neutral with the power to sustain life in her gentler form and in her frightening manifestation, she takes it away***.

Those who present this in a philosophical manner**** say that the word ‘Kali’ derives from the word ‘kal’ (meaning time), and that very power which she manifests from within time, she is able to draw into herself so she is able to devour time itself. Because of this she is Kali. In this way, Kali in the ‘timeless’ interpretation, can be considered to have become an expression of the one ultimate reality (ਬ੍ਰਹਮ). Kali is described as ornamented with decapitated heads, corpses and crematorium ash because she is the power which can absorb [and thus destroy] all of creation.

The reason devi is called black coloured is because she is able to take all visible things to nothingness and remove the world from time itself+. Then she is nude - clothed in nothing but the four directions of the compass – stark naked. Because if she is clothed, she appears constrained, so referring to her as being ‘without garment’ she becomes unrestricted. Then she is illusion, from which the world is created, in this fashion she is a creative form of power of the transcendental great supreme reality (ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ). Because of this she is sometimes portrayed as standing in Shiv’s white corpse. Shiv is white because he is the manifestation of pure consciousness. The appearance of the cadaver is not to signify lifelessness but rather her ancient, untainted, unchanging, single minded and incorruptible form. The dead body upon which she stands signifies the altering, creative, destructive form and is an icon of these powers. In reality both of these are one, one being’s two colours. One, a single incorruptible, unalterable essence and the other of change, itself a visible attribute of the unchanging.

At this point the matter that needs reflecting upon is that on one hand we have the original forms of devi in the shape of the fear-inspiring statues installed in the Vindhya temple near Mirzapur and the Kalibari temple in Calcutta, where Tantrism as well as other sorcery and various superstitious practices take place. Whilst on the other hand we have the higher ‘intellectualised devi’ as outlined above. Both are astonishingly conflicting conceptualisations between which there is immeasurable difference. What is a thinking person supposed to think? Which one of these is Guru Gobind Singh ji supposed to have invoked, according to that written by the poets? Because the authors of Gurbilas and Gur Prataap Suraj etc. present a hotchpotch of the schools of thought [in their works]

For a while, the worship of Kali by the wild, tribal [indigenous] folk involved offerings of the blood of the innocent (at the hand of the thags etc.) before the [Kali] effigy. Then we have the war-spirit inspiring workings of the Durga etc. and in another place we have the essence of Tantrism. Whatever they are, if we ignore them all and try to distinguish the truth of the highest interpretation given by devotees of devi, we find that these writers have developed their school of thought through deliberation and by stretching and distilling their understanding of devi and taking it into a philosophic form. Like some have come believe in the philosophy that subordinate to Brahma, a creating, nurturing and destroying immanent being called “Ishwaar” exists. Similarly, in Vaishnavism, beneath the transcendental supreme soul, a world unifying and consciousness melding immanent being has been understood to exist - who is referred to as Vishnu. In this very way, devi is an immanent entity, who because of the transcendental supreme soul’s untaintable (ਅਲੇਪ) nature has been established as the creative, sustaining and destroyer of earth, in higher philosophic Shaktic thought.

Now we will attempt to find the place of devi in Gurmat. For this purpose, we will start with the higher school of thought, which Hindu philosophy presents as ‘transcendental Ishwaarat’ and proceed with that: -

(beginning of new section entitled Gurmat vich devi or devi in Sikh thought)

---------------------------------------------------------

*In the northern mountains very early idols of Vaishu devi, Kheer bhavani, Chintpoorni presented in a gentle manner can be found at separate places even today.

**Dawson.

*** Sir Charles Elliot

**** Woodriffe

+ Long footnote

Edited by dalsingh101
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  • 3 months later...

Translator's thoughts:

 

Having previously covered material under the title of 'Devi in Hindu thought' I found that this title was clearly a misnomer on closer inspection. What that section actually contained was an analysis of devi in the Hindu (and ancient Indic) world as conceptualised by white Victorian era influenced individuals that were contemporary or semi-contemporary to bhai sahib. Some of these individuals (as much of the period as a whole), were generally very racially and imperialistically motivated.

 

In the following extract we find Bhai Vir Singh on surer ground as he searches for the place of devi within Sikh thought. The references, give a clear window into his sources, being made up of Sikh scripture and historical 'granths'. Sikh holy text is openly quoted throughout and Bhai Vir Singh presents his argument that Sikhi does not sanction the worshiping of the divine singularity in the form of an entity derived from a particular aspect of it's power. Also covered is the matter of gender in relation to a Sikh conceptualisation of a creator God. As ever, positive feedback is welcome on the translation. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Prabhjot Singh (PJS) of sikhsangat.com and Bhagat Singh (Canada) for their help in semantic deciphering of what I found to be a very difficult sentence. Needless to say, I do not claim infallibility, and any input to assist in improving the accuracy of the translation is more than welcome. Please accept my apologies for not possessing sufficient linguistic skill to refer to Waheguru in a gender neutral way myself. As such I've used the forms He and Him to encompass such references.

Quote

Devi in Gurmat (Gurmat vich devi)

In the house of the Guru [Sikhi], Akaal Purakh has been accepted to be ‘the almighty, the creator as well as untainted’ (1). ‘He Himself is without attributes (ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ) and immanent [or endowed with qualities] (ਸਰਗੁਨੁ); He is also involved and related. Manifesting His power, He fascinates the entire world’ (2). The same has also been understood [in the following terms]: 'He Himself creates and beholds His own drama. He winds up the drama, and then, O Nanak, He alone remains’ (3).

Punna: When He Himself fashioned the visible world of the creation, he made the world subject to the three dispositions. (4).

Punna: When it pleases Him, He creates the world. As He pleases, He absorbs it back into Himself. (5).

In all of these lines there is an allusion to a transcendental supreme soul. Because subsequent lines are saying He is undeceivable, indivisible, unified, singular, limitless, higher than high, innumerable, unfathomable, incalculable and immeasurable. The duties (of creating, sustaining and destroying etc.) are not described as the actions of the separate immanent forms of ‘Ishwaar’ or “Vishnu” or ‘Bhavani’, rather they said to be that of the pure consciousness of God. That which is spoken of as being without attribute and formless, Guru ji speaks of as thus: He Himself is the Master of both worlds (6). Punna: He Himself performs and plays His amusements and games. He Himself enjoys pleasures, and yet He is unaffected and untouched (7). Punna: The supreme Destroyer is alone the Creator. He is in the beginning and in the end, He is the infinite entity, the Creator and the Destroyer (8). In addition we are also informed that ‘O Nanak, recognise the single creator Lord’ (9). He alone is the one creator and when it ‘pleases’ him he forms all of creation in line with His own divine will, as in: ‘By His will form manifests...’ (10). Then, in case we think that through the manifestation of a divine will He may become corrupted, we are subsequently told that ‘...the divine will cannot be described' (11). Meaning Akal Purakh is the creator, who fashions in accordance to divine will; To ‘manifest divine will’ is not to become corrupted because as He himself is beyond explanation and so too is His divine will. We cannot say He is corrupted and such things. He Himself is the truth, as in ‘True is the Command of Your Will, True is Your Order’ (12). Meaning, in the same manner that He himself is true, so too is His divine edict. That which is called truth cannot be called corrupted.

We, place blame according to our own will, thinking and contemplation, attributing corruption to Him, but the ‘divine writ’ like His ‘form’ are beyond our understanding and ability to explain. He and He alone understands His own writ and actions, ‘He Himself knows His own ways’ (13). When we start to say that divine command (ਹੁਕਮ), will (ਭਾਣਾ) and actions (ਕਰਤਬ) do not emanate from Him, we must then be talking about a command, a will and actions that we are knowledgeable of. But how can we give details of that which we are not privy to, with the suggestion that if a divine writ emanates from Him, He would become corrupted?

When He is believed to be truth, consciousness and then beloved (bliss) then surely He has His own purpose of which we are unaware. How can that which is pure consciousness, in it’s essence, be inactive like elemental matter? Yes, His activities and our activities are not at all similar; but whatever they are, they will be truth, like He is. This means that [when] Guru ji speaks of his Akaal Purakh as the formless, almighty creator and then as untainted, he speaks of him as the creator of the world, as well as residing within it. He is told to exist within the confines of this world as well as within eternal truth ‘I am a sacrifice to Your almighty creative power which is pervading everywhere’ (14) we are told. None of His powers are separated from Him (15). No powers are related to Him in a husband and wife relationship. He is all-powerful and whatever He does, he does through the divine writ;

He is the divine commander (ਹੁਕਮੀ) being untainted (ਅਲੇਪ) and singular (ਇਕੋ), infinite (ਅਨੰਤ), without beginning (ਅਨਾਦਿ), the ultimate reality (ਬ੍ਰਹਮ) and the transcendent one (ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ). The description of the form of Waheguru ji as given in the tenets of the Sikhi (ਗੁਰਮਤਿਹ) doesn’t allow any room for a representation that allows for them to be worshipped in any separate male form (Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh) or with a female (Devi) identity. Within the Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji whenever devi worship has been prohibited, whether in her Calcuttan, Vindhyachal resident or philosophical representation, she is referred to as ‘Aad Bhavani’ (ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ). That is to say that even the worship of the devi of philosophic understanding is not condoned and we are told:

ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

You are called the Primal Goddess.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥

At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? || SGGS ji Ang 874

Then, when exploring the historical perspective we have the story of Bhai Bhageerath telling us that when she was attained through meditation, devi sent him to Guru Nanak, informing him of her inability to liberate him [herself] (16). The second Guru, Sri Angad Dev ji, who was formerly a devotee of devi, had a vision of her sweeping Guru Nanak’s doorstep (17). We also have the devi tale of Bhai Dhayroo written by the author of Dabistan Majhb, in which a Sikh named Dhayroo (or Phero) breaks the nose of a devi idol. Then devi informs us of her inability to fight with the ninth Guru [Tegh Bahadhur] (18). In addition, in order to make his panth ‘worshippers of a singular Akal Purakh’ the tenth father taught them “Waheguru jee kee fateh” and to speak of being “Waheguru ji’s Khalsa”. From all of these instances we learn that within none of the instructions of the 10 Gurus are we told to separate a particular power (ਸ਼ਕਤੀ) of Waheguru and worship it.

Guru ji never believed in any gender separation in Waheguru. When we address that which has no gender, openly with any [interchangeable] gender it is akin to believing that it is without a particular gender. To refer to them as father is just the same as referring to them as mother. This type of worship is encompassed in Gurbani; as the fifth Guru has spoken:

‘You are my Father, and You are my Mother’ (19).

All of this is the worship of the undivided form of Akaal Purakh, no worship of any particular power that has been separated from them in the form of an assumed, distinct entity is taking place.

References

 

1) SGGS ji Ang 464: ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਤੂੰ ਕਾਦਿਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਾਕੀ ਨਾਈ ਪਾਕੁ ॥

2) SGGS ji Ang 287: ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਸਰਗੁਨੁ ਭੀ ਓਹੀ ॥ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਮੋਹੀ ॥

3) SGGS ji Ang 292: ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ॥ ਖੇਲੁ ਸੰਕੋਚੈ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੈ ॥

4) SGGS ji Ang 291: ਜਹ ਆਪਿ ਰਚਿਓ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਅਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਤਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥

5) SGGS ji Ang 292: ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਲਏ ਸਮਾਏ ॥

6)SGGS ji Ang 292: ਦੁਹੂ ਪਾਖ ਕਾ ਆਪਹਿ ਧਨੀ ॥

7) SGGS ji Ang 292: ਆਪਹਿ ਕਉਤਕ ਕਰੈ ਅਨਦ ਚੋਜ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਨ ਨਿਰਜੋਗ ॥

😎 DG Ang 134: ਕੇਵਲ ਕਾਲ ਈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤ ਅਨੰਤਿ ਮੂਰਤ ਗੜ੍ਹਨ ਭੰਜਨਹਾਰ ॥

9) SGGJ ji Ang 292: ਕਰਨਹਾਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥

10) SGGS ji Ang 1: ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ

11) SGGS ji Ang 1: ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥

12) SGGS ji Ang 463: ਸਚਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਚਾ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥

13) SGGS ji Ang 292: ਅਪਨੇ ਕਰਤਬ ਜਾਨੈ ਆਪਿ ॥

14) SGGS ji Ang 469: ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥

15) ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥ Then [prior to creation] where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?

16) Sri Guru Nanak Prakash Poorbardh Adyaay 27, ank 15 onwards

17) Twarikh Khalsa Hinsa 1, number 2 punna 514

18) Shri Guru Partaap Sooraj. Raas 12. Ansoo 9. Unk 29 onwards

19) SGGS ji Ang 103: ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤਾ ॥

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veer ji just sharing my 2 cents, correct me if u feel this is not related but the difference i have observed upto the 9 Gurus in fact primarily the first 5 gurus the bani has been 'baishnu' influenced, now dont take this as i m potraying that we sikhs are worshippers of sri vishnu ji maharaj, but there was stress on 'Hari' swaroop of Akaal. Since Sikhi was a bhakti marag.

The Tenth Guru Dhan Dhan Guru Gobindsingh ji Maharaj led the Panth to KHALSA a Rajyogi marag, which balanced the saint and warrior spirit in a saadh of Akaal, the followers of the PANTH were made Rishis since they were doing saadhna of cleansing the earth off the malechch. This i feel is clearly indicated in "Hum yahi kaaj jagat mo aaye"

India has been largely influenced by dharmak references of valour and references of sri krishan ji maharaj slaying the asuras or Bhagauti slaying asuras have always influenced the indian psyche.

Guru Maharaj has made so many references to Bhagauti/Chandi/Kalka due to their strong martial spirit which inspires a person to the call of the arms.

The reference you gave about the 'thug' culture in India is a very strong example, since the thugs looted and killed however drew their martial spirit from the worship of mother Kali the fierce swaroop.

Guru Maharaj in his bani has invoked this valor, in the prayer 'De Shiva Bar mohe' Guru Maharaj is invoking the SHIV swaroop of Akaal, Lord Shivji is considered a warrior Swaroop of Akaal and rather an aggressive swaroop, He is considered the Destroyer force - The Rudra.

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Jaikara

I would really be interested in hearing what you consider to be the main differences between the Bhakti yog marag and the Raj yog one outside of a Sikh context?

You made some very interesting observations that I will comment on soon.

Edited by dalsingh101
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lets take example of Sukhmani Sahib to start with, the bani is primarily guiding the sikh to renounce his materialistic wishes and asking him to do Bhagti of Akaal. The various ashatpadees time and again make the sikh realise that nothing will come with him except the Naam. Now in this entire Bani there will is no reference to anything valourous or martial, the only reference to Shiv Shakti is :

Jab Nirgun Prabh Sahaj Subhai

Tab Siv Sakti Kahahu Kitu Thai

this again is not a martial reference, this part of asatpadee points out that when Akaal alone was the obvious swaroop, where were Shiv Shakti ?

Now i maybe wrong but of what i have studied is, the Shakt Panthis have everyting beginning from Shakti and the Maya roop of Shakti, there has been a strong influence of Shakt Panth, the Shiv Panthis too are thinkers of the same direction.

Dhan Dhan Guru Arjan ji Maharaj here, since Sikhi is primarily following formless counters their belief by saying that Nirgun swabhav of Akaal had always been present and when this was existing where were Shiv Shakti ?

This reference shows that Shakti swaroop of Akaal wasnt primarily worshipped by Sikhs, there are many references to Gopal Damodar Nath Niranjan etc. these are 'baishnu' names of the swaroops of Sri Vishnu ji Maharaj and the reason being Bhagti was the primary character.

Now take Dasam Bani into consideration, you will notice the difference.Even when reciting you will notice that your tone also feels the power. The Dasam BANI to invoke shakti is flowing it doesnt take much pauses. For example 'Jai Teghan' my favorite bani of Guru Maharaj invokes the shakti and concentrates your mind on the 'Sword' the symbol of Bhagauti.

I would again do Namaskaar to our Gurus since imagine their literature skills, the composition of Bani is as such, there is the feeling of what is wanting to being conveyed.

This morning i was listening to Snatam Kaur's Ek Oangkaar, when Nanak Nadar Nihaal was recited, i could feel it, i could feel that i have surrendered to the will of the Guru.

If i have commited any mistakes while pouring out my heart some of which maybe not sensible or my understanding may not be at par with yors, please forgive me and correct me.

Bhulchuk muaaf karni..

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Brother it's all good.

I was wondering about the distinct differences in belief and practices between non Sikh Bhakti yoga and Raj yoga. Where do they differ? I know bhakti yoga has a heavy emphasis on an emotional bond of love with the object of veneration. One area where we obviously differ from nonSikh bhakti is with the object of veneration. Plus bhakti has a lot of emphasis on singing prayers and a social element. Obviously what I have just stated doesn't go very far in describing bhakti yoga, but I was wondering what underpins raj yoga?

What makes you think that Dasmesh pita expanded the bhakti style practice and incorporated raj joga?

India has been largely influenced by dharmak references of valour and references of sri krishan ji maharaj slaying the asuras or Bhagauti slaying asuras have always influenced the indian psyche.

I would agree with you here. Chandi di vaar is essentially all about that. I wonder if Krishna Avtaar in DG is too?

The reference you gave about the 'thug' culture in India is a very strong example, since the thugs looted and killed however drew their martial spirit from the worship of mother Kali the fierce swaroop.

I have my own theory about this bhai ji. Personally I think the thuggee thing was a bogey man exaggerated by Victorian goray in a bizarre twist of exoticism and probably fear with a dollop of propaganda too. Goray even till today go on about the big favour they did by ridding India of this 'menace' but I find it strange that something that was so 'fear inspiring', ingrained and potent to them as a force finds no mention as some organised group in any Sikh literature. I believe there were probably some fellows who were robbers who believed in devi and the whole thing was blown out of proportion by an over active Victorian imagination. I mean, murdering wayfarers for their belongs isn't or wasn't anything new in India was it. I'm very skeptical about the whole 'thugee' phenomena as made out by goray myself.

Guru Maharaj in his bani has invoked this valor, in the prayer 'De Shiva Bar mohe' Guru Maharaj is invoking the SHIV swaroop of Akaal, Lord Shivji is considered a warrior Swaroop of Akaal and rather an aggressive swaroop, He is considered the Destroyer force - The Rudra.

You've got a valid, arguable point there, but from what we've read of Bhai Vir Singh so far, he doesn't seem to support this notion himself. I'm sure he will go into this matter in more detail latter in the work.

Edited by dalsingh101
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Obviously what I have just stated doesn't go very far in describing bhakti yoga, but I was wondering what underpins raj yoga?

What makes you think that Dasmesh pita expanded the bhakti style practice and incorporated raj joga?

Veer ji to answer this, the kshtariya dharam was inculcated, a martial spirit was planted, sarbloh was given importance, the bani of the Guru had made a lion out of a deer, i call this raj yog since the sikh had turned into a chakarvarti fauj, with the new form the sikhs had then established the Khalsa raj.The sikh of the Guru was no longer only a udasi who did passive form of bhagti, he was active with the current affairs of the land.

I have my own theory about this bhai ji. Personally I think the thuggee thing was a bogey man exaggerated by Victorian goray in a bizarre twist of exoticism and probably fear with a dollop of propaganda too. Goray even till today go on about teh big favour they did by ridding Indian of this 'menace'

This is 100% true and in fact there are some groups in the interiors, although the majority of them have corrupted i m searching for some true stories which will give u an idea of this

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I think they were a bunch of murderous thugs who happened to worship kali. Other people who didn't believe in kali were doing the same thing. I mean Sajjan thug is an obvious example.

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Veer ji, here is the book. You can read about the encounter with the Durga worshiping robbers from page 86 to 90. As you will read, they ultimately converted to Buddhism.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B0NO0oU6GiAC&dq=the+life+of+hiuen+tsiang++beal&q=durga#v=onepage&q=durga&f=true

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i should that thankfully due to the arrival of Shankaracharya that vedic revival begun, otherwise we would have all been slaves of islam.

That is a VERY contentious statement! lol I confess I don't know who Shankaracharya is, will look it up.

What I wonder is why so many Panjabis converted to Islam?

And I don't believe it is at all accurate or even intelligent to suggest these people all crapped their khudhees and converted out of fear.

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here is info abt shankaracharya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankara

i dont know how it is contentious since had he not revived the vedant just as the buddhist kingdoms were destroyed by the mongols and what we see today as afghanistan was once the kingdom of Gandhaar, this area was predominantly buddhist, south east asia too has faced something similiar

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Thanks for that.

Back to BVS. Maybe we should focus discussion on Bhai Sahibs point that Sikhs should not be worshiping a particular representation of singled out powers of Waheguru?

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absolutely thats why we are different from the hindus, one thing you shall notice in Sri Dasam Granth is after potraying the valour of the different swaroops of Akaal, Along with saying : "Ram katha jug jug atal sab koi bakhat net", Guru Maharaj clearly states:

Meh Na Ganeshe Pratham Manau, Krishan bishan kabhu na dhiyaau."

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the difference i have observed upto the 9 Gurus in fact primarily the first 5 gurus the bani has been 'baishnu' influenced,

So was Gurbani from Dhur? or from the Gurus themselves? If it was from Dhur as Guru states, then in what way was it influenced?

Guru Maharaj in his bani has invoked this valor, in the prayer 'De Shiva Bar mohe' Guru Maharaj is invoking the SHIV swaroop of Akaal, Lord Shivji is considered a warrior Swaroop of Akaal and rather an aggressive swaroop, He is considered the Destroyer force - The Rudra.

Bro maybe you can explain why Bhagwaan Sri Vishnu had to take multiple births to save Dharma, rather than the warrior saroop of Akaal, Bhagwaan Shiv Ji?

And the Samprdayes do not think of Guru Ji talking invoking Shiv Ji in the context of Deh Shiva... but Chandi.

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bro the bani was from dhur, but one speaks what is being understood, the way it is being understood rather.

the people of india understand the Akaal in forms of damodar gopal krishan naath niranjan, so that is the way guruji had conveyed the message.

Well i dont know about why the births, since i dont have any probs with rebirth.

i myself have never thought about mokash since i want to see this world thoroughly, i cant imagine myself as nothing without body and mind

I have not heard of Chandi being invoked in De Shiva .. anywhere maybe u could shed some light on this veer ji

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well i'll start you off. this comes at the end of Chandi Charitar in Dasam Guru. The male name is Shiv, and the female name is Shiva. However for some reason certain texts have the suffix "a" at the ends of their names, ie Krishn, is written Krishna, Ganesh is Ganesha. why this is written like this i dont know, but Shiv is written as Shiva in Dasam Guru. No Hindu calls Shiv Ji "Shiva Ji". This is one of the reasons this first mistake is made, in thinking that Guru Ji is refering to Shiv Ji.

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