43 replies to this topic

[dalsingh101]

Now I'm not suggesting that we don't have perverts in our own community but I think enough cases have occurred of Pakistani men doing this stuff in groups for us to ask what some people may feel are politically incorrect and uncomfortable questions. And before anyone jumps in with claims of Muslimophobia please note that the BBC News report (watch the video) itself makes a point about a number of such cases being discovered involving, quote "Asian men" and that an investigation needs to take place asking why.

I know we have nonce cases in our own community but I think the frequency with which girls are targeted and abused by a group of men is something possibly peculiar to certain quarters. Especially when we usually find that the girls involved are usually from outside communities to the one the perpetrators belong to.

One reason I highlight this is because a good few years ago when some Sikh guys were talking about this very thing, they were made out to be exaggerating. Even the then police chief of the Met (head pig) had the front to suggest that these people were starting unfounded rumours. Anyway, incase any apnay are still stupid enough to think there isn't an issue:

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Derby sex gang convicted of grooming and abusing girls


See video here.



A gang of men from Derby has been convicted of systematically grooming and sexually abusing teenage girls.



Many of the victims were given alcohol or drugs before being forced to have sex in cars, rented houses or hotels across the Midlands.

One girl described a sexual assault involving at least eight men.

The nine men were convicted during three separate trials, culminating in the convictions at Leicester Crown Court of the two ringleaders.

Reporting restrictions had been in place until the end of the third trial.

Twenty-seven girls came forward to say they had been victims, the youngest of whom was 12 and the oldest was 18. Convictions have been achieved for 15 of those.

Liaqat and Saddique were said to be the leaders of the gang

Abid Mohammed Saddique, 27, and Mohammed Romaan Liaqat, 28 - both married with children - were said to be the leaders of the gang.

Saddique, of Northumberland Street, Normanton, Derby, was convicted of four counts of rape as well as two counts of false imprisonment, two of sexual assault, three charges of sexual activity with a child, perverting the course of justice, and aiding and abetting rape.

Liaqat, of Briar Lea Close, Sinfin, Derby, was found guilty of one count of rape, two of sexual assault, aiding and abetting rape, affray, and four counts of sexual activity with a child.

Both pleaded guilty to causing a person under the age of 18 to be involved in pornography.

They will be sentenced on 7 January.
'Complex investigation'

Derbyshire Police said they believed no money changed hands between those involved, and said such instances of abuse were a growing problem in the UK.

Detectives said it had been the most horrendous case of sexual exploitation they had ever faced.
Continue reading the main story
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Start Quote

We are shocked by the scale of abuse we have uncovered and the impact it has had on the girls who were the victims of these callous men”
Det Insp Sean Dawson

The undercover investigation by Derbyshire Police, Operation Retriever, was split into three trials which have run since February.

Speaking after the hearing, Det Insp Sean Dawson said: "These convictions have brought an end to a lengthy and complex investigation that has been brought to court thanks to the bravery of the victims in this case.

"These two men are predatory sex offenders who, with their associates, have systematically abused and raped teenage girls.

"We are shocked by the scale of abuse we have uncovered and the impact it has had on the girls who were the victims of these callous men.

"Child sex exploitation is something that parents and carers across the country should be aware of.

"Parents and carers should talk to their children, take an interest in what they are doing and warn them not to go off with strangers, no matter how tempting it might seem."

Thirteen men were charged in relation to Operation Retriever and 11 stood trial for a string of charges, not all sexual, relating to the case.

Of the original 13, a total of nine have been convicted of offences against vulnerable girls ranging from rape to false imprisonment.
Continue reading the main story

Other defendants have already been sentenced for their offences
Victim groomed by 'evil' sex gang
Rape gang 'targeted children'

Other defendants already convicted and sentenced were: Akshay Kumar, 38, he admitted one count of causing a person under the age of 18 to be involved in pornography and was jailed for two years and 10 months.

Faisal Mehmood, 24, pleaded guilty to sexual activity with a child before trial and was jailed for three years. He has now been deported to Pakistan.

Mohammed Imran Rehman, 26, was jailed for seven-and-a-half years after being found guilty of rape, while Graham Blackham, 26, was given a three-year sentence after he was convicted of two counts of breaching a sexual offences prevention order.

Liaqat's brother Naweed Liaqat, 33, and Farooq Ahmed, 28, pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice and were both jailed for 18 months.

Ziafat Yasin, 31, was cleared of sex charges but pleaded guilty to being concerned in the supply of cocaine. He was jailed for three years.

Edited by dalsingh101, 24 November 2010 - 11:09 PM.

[Maha Singh]

Who is to blame?

Every person involved in this has a part to play, obviously the guys involved more, however the teenagers who decided to jump in the car with a stranger and indulge in alcohol and drugs should have had a touch more sense. When a car pulls up to anyone you should be wary, more when its a guy to a girl, and even more when its at night.

What these guys did is unforgivable and its a tremendous shame that they get such light sentences (2-3 yrs, and will probably do half that) for acts which will affect the victims involved and their families for the rest of their lives.

These kinds of crimes are not restricted to any community or religion, organised sex crime happens amongst whites, blacks, Asians, "muslims", "christians", hell i bet it even happens within our own community somewhere in the world.

No one, no matter what age should be forced to endure the pshycological trauma that is caused by such acts, what disgusts me more is that it wasnt just a single person who was involved, it was a number of them who were in it together and non of them had the f*cking sense to think "hey bro, this might be a bit wrong inni?".

Edited by Maha Singh, 24 November 2010 - 10:42 PM.

[dalsingh101]

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These kinds of crimes are not restricted to any community or religion, organised sex crime happens amongst whites, blacks, Asians, "muslims", "christians", hell i bet it even happens within our own community somewhere in the world.

Fair point, but we do seem to be seeing a lot of it from P quarters in the UK and some of our people have been claiming this stuff has been going on for some time now?

There is no need to go to the exaggerated extreme of saying all of 'them' are at it, like some apnay do, but it is something to note. And even the BBC flagged the fact that a lot of 'Asian' men seemed to be getting caught at it of late.

It wasn't long ago we had this, remember:

http://www.sikhaware...showtopic=13411

Edited by dalsingh101, 24 November 2010 - 11:16 PM.

[shaheediyan]

What these monsters did was unforgivable - and I am sure they will get their just reward.

Maha Singh has a valid point about not only the teenage girls having to share some blame, but more so, their irresponsible parents.

Regarding which 'quarter' is more involved in this activity than any others - than maybe you should look at the domination of child/girl/woman sex abuse/rape/prostitution/exploitation amongst the Eastern Europeans - who control this game not only in mainland Europe, but also the UK.

No other community even gets a look in. And these people abduct their women as well as any others they can get their hands on.

The reason Muslim women don't end up involved (in a large scale) on the victimisation end, is because they are 'generally' brought up to have more respect for themselves and not allowed to wonder around the streets half naked at 12pm.

I recall when growing up, many apnay would have a token 'white' girlfriends, with only one intention. To entetain them until their respectful girl was found from a poor family in Punjab.

The culture of these Pk (which included one Akshay Kumar..) is simply hip hop culture, I am surprised this is not getting mentioned. Even amongst the blacks in the older days - the 'entertainment' used to be targeted amongst the latino and white trash communities.

[Maha Singh]

There is a difference between "entertainment" and grooming/gang rape.

There is a difference between promiscious adults and adults targetting 12 yrs olds.

I am in no way trying to take away the spotlight from the increasing sex offences committed by Islamically inclined men. My point is that rather then targetting a single community, open your eyes to see that it happens amongst all backgrounds. No race, culture and country is imune to the Rakash Birthi.

Shaheediyan, your point that some apneh had a token white girlfriend may have been true back in the day, however, times change, cultures change and views change. Nowadays, it is not uncommon for an apna to be married with a gori, or that they are in a serious relationship. The reason why no apna kept a gori was because they knew the harshness of indian parents and that the marraige would never be accepted, so they played the field with the mindset that it is never going to amount to anything and never committed themselves to a relationship. In the same way, mixed caste marraiges were not allowed by families, however now they are being accepted (albeit reluctantly).

The fact is, when communities move from one country to another as they have in the past 50 odd years, mixing of races, relationships will always happen. Similarly, if we look back 20 yrs, there was a smaller percentage of love marraiges within our community due to the culture of how girls were kept, not being sent to university and college, not working etc whereas now girls have the freedom to work, study, go out and this will naturally increase mixing with guys.

Edited by Maha Singh, 25 November 2010 - 10:38 AM.

[shaheediyan]

Yes you are right to a degree, but the age range of the girls was varied, not just 12. It was more a matter of opportunity.
The apnay I speak of also didn't pay much attention to age, it was common for them to intice and go with school girls.

Another thing to consider if talking about 'communities' is the massive sex industry in India, prob the biggest in the world with high aids %. This industry is famous for grooming and kidnapping children to feed the gigantic demand, sadly, most are orphans or from very poor families, the most vulnerable.

Another thing re your point is that apnay are not just promiscious, they target (or at least used) white girls. At the same time I have grown up seeing a mentality in certain jaaths that girls from lower castes are easy game, and it is their purpose to entertain the higher castes. This sick attitude still exists in Punjab and UK today amongst certain sections of the 'higher castes'. This is no different to pk targeting non pk.

Re the lack of example re apnay - do we not run the drug and pimping trade in BC?

The biggest shame of it is the fact the we no longer have respect for apnian anymore (that doesn't justify targeting others) our girls are treated like common whores up by our own folk up and down the country, egged on by our Great portrayel of them on Brit Asia, and we have the audacity to complain if outsiders take advantage....

[drawrof]

WTR Regards to Shaheediyan's comment about British Columbia,

When a person looks at the facts in British Columbia, The punjabi commmunity does not really run anything. The problems occur at the street level. The control is in the hands of the vietnamese, Triad, and Hell's angels groups. You have the odd person trafficking here and there. Pimping is another area where there is some involvement, but nothing to the extent of what we are lead to believe.

The number of drug related deaths is unproportionately high and the media does tend to sensationalise things a bit. The youth community and those adults who are enticed by 'badmaashi' have done the typical exxageration of the situation. It is almost a hallmark of success in their eyes.

[shaheediyan]

Apologies for the exaggeration, my facts are based on news stories I have read over the years (which as you correctly say are sensationilsed) but also based on meeting what I call 'Punjabi trash' from CA who were openly proud about what they and their 'famous' cousins go up to in CA (which again as you say, is probably a slight over exaggeration).

My point was simply that we also have comparable examples - I also sadly grew up around many Sikh/Punjabi criminal elements in the areas where I lived, so know that poor education/poverty does not see faiths/cultures - where I grew up, yardies/apnay/kashmiris/pks/gorai were all up to one and the same, there were no bounderies - all were as bad as each other - this is primarily because it was a poor and rough area.

Even today, all around the world - we see the same sort of crimes - which are usually nearly always focused around poorer areas. There are always exceptions to the rule - and this is where those examples of Punjabi trash from BC can be used, youth from a stable and fairly wealthy family, who just want to live the hip hop life. These examples exist in drones in the UK, US and Punjab also. And exist in most communities all over the world.

The term 'Muslim' needs to be used carefully here. There are many succesful Muslim communities in the UK inc Iranian, Iraqi, Moroccan, Algerian, Malaysian, Indonesian, Ismaili etc. In my epxerience in latter years, I also see that the Pakistani community in London, esp where I live in SW London is hugely successful. With the Hospitals, Accountancy firms, Law firms and Public Sector filled with many PK, hell, even the MP who got Eddie Milliband into power and is now in the Shadow Cabinet, Sadique Khan is from my part of town.

I agree there does seem to be a disproportionate number of crimes commited by the PK community amongst the Asians - but this goes hand in hand with PK commnuities, particularly from the North ex-industrial areas - being very poor. Radicalisation and isolation in the UK also plays a big part. Same stigma was applied to Jamaicans before/after the Brixton riots (when most people used to associate all crime with 'blacks'), before the Africans came here and becamse so massively successful.

[dalsingh101]

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I agree there does seem to be a disproportionate number of crimes commited by the PK community amongst the Asians - but this goes hand in hand with PK commnuities, particularly from the North ex-industrial areas - being very poor. Radicalisation and isolation in the UK also plays a big part.

What about the impact of cultural mindsets on the people engaging in this type of stuff as groups?

I have no doubt some haraam de apnay do bad kaam inspired stuff as individuals, but that isn't akin to what we are talking about here is it.

That being said, you right right in that there is some parallel with some sexual abuse that takes place from people perceiving themselves to be "high" caste towards those they perceive as beneath them. It's just a shame that we skirt around this issue instead of openly naming the specific 'high caste' group who does this.

[Xylitol]

Nobody is doubting that this stuff happens in all communities. And that some non-pakistani communities are also involved in a disproportionately higher number of sex crimes than other communities.

But, Has anyone here considered that the reason a disproportionately higher number of sexual assaults are committed by pakistani men has something to do with promptings from radical Muslim organisations to engage in this kind of behaviour? Once people become used to doing this kind of thing for a "cause", it's not hard to see how they could get used to doing it as part of their lifestyle, or how an atmosphere of looking away could develop. I remember threads on this not too long ago.

[dalsingh101]

Okay, so what makes 'high caste' Sikhs engage in sexual abuse as well? Is it the same mechanism or something different?

Maybe it isn't entirely religious Xyl. Maybe it is just a by product of an indoctrination of supremacy and hatred, mixed with kaam? So the perpetrators fulfill sexual urges with victims their beliefs have dehumanised in any case?

Shaheediyan is right to highlight that some of our own lot are guilty too. What makes them do it?

[Mithar]

Are there any organized Sikh groups sexually abusing women like these Pakistani men(mostly of Punjabi origin) do? Some might suggest poverty or unemployment the reason for these Pakistani men sexually exploiting women. But many Sikh men who are new to UK are also not exactly rich and it is hard for them to find employment as well, are they forming Sikhs groups to sexually exploit British women?

[tonyhp32]

As Mithar rightly pointed out there are many Sikhs in the UK who have only come here in the last few years and the majority of who are single guys who are out of their villages/towns for the first time. I have yet to hear of them taking part in similar behaviour as these Pakis have done. It's easy to look for other factors instead of the elephant in the room which is the religion and the culture that religion has brought about. I remember watching a documentary where a MP from Yorkshire said that it was well known amongst the Paki community that these things happen but they shut their eyes to it and blame it on the immorality of the girls rather than the predatory nature of their young men. The reason I cite religion is that it is well known that in Islam it is up to the women to look after her honour and safety. Imams have been known to put forward the view that any woman who wears make up or short skirts is basically asking for it. Unless the woman is wearing a tent then she is fair game and to blame for anything that happens to her. I have yet to hear this kind oft thing in a Gurdwara or heard Rabbis or Priests say the same thing.

Dalsingh you seem to have caste on your mind 24/7 which is unhealthy. There is no doubt that some spoilt son of a large landowner might take advantage of his position to abuse the daughter of a low caste labourer but equating these to the organised abuse that Pakis engage in is nonsense.

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At the same time I have grown up seeing a mentality in certain jaaths that girls from lower castes are easy game, and it is their purpose to entertain the higher castes. This sick attitude still exists in Punjab and UK today amongst certain sections of the 'higher castes'. This is no different to pk targeting non pk.

I have yet to hear a bigger lie than that in defence of Pakis. He's known to defend Pakis but to claim that higher caste Sikhs are sexually abusing lower caste Sikhs in the UK shows to what lengths he goes to defend Pakis.

I am sure the families of the girls are glad there were no singhs like Shaheediyan on the jury otherwise these scumbags might have got off scott free!

Edited by tonyhp32, 26 November 2010 - 08:20 AM.

[dalsingh101]

Well Tony, to be frank you're doing a Paki in my mind too, in the way you turn a blind eye to all sorts of evil shite emanating from your own community.

I've heard plenty of sleazy Jatt boys making comments akin to Pakis over the years, British raised ones and pindus. Hell just a few days ago I walked out of the Gurdwara with some Jatt desi I just met and the guy had no shame in eying up some 15 year old looking gori literally outside the Gurdwara like an idiot. Even telling him we just left a Gurdwara didn't make him feel anything? Go out on the town in certain areas with a lot of desis and see how they are out and about on the pull with no shame, I've had to tell a few freshies to calm down over drunk arse goris who could barely walk as well as seriously non 'han dey kuris'.

Again, you are being a Paki because you don't want acknowledge stuff from your own quarter, which does happen frequently - NOT as exceptional cases as you make out. It is part of the cultural mindset. The Jatt rapist is a well known phenomena. Farmers need to address it.

The difference between Pakis and certain apnay is that apnay limit abuse to themselves, they don't get their cousins, mates, uncles etc. in on the act. Shaheediyan should recognise this difference for the sake of truth.

One operates as an individual one as a member of a pack. And I know Pks have been at it since AT LEAST 21 years ago, when I first encountered it. We are right to point fingers but to act like some of our own aren't nonces as well is living in pure denial.

I don't feel it is out of place to add that animals like the Paks above usually get an extra kick out of it when they get some dumb apnee in their clutches for obvious historical grudge purposes.

And I'm not a liberal type in these matters but completely blaming the stupid ass, naive bird that ends up in these situations is pretty much letting the nonce cases of the hook and lame. If some much older head took advantage of your own innocent daughter would you blame her? If so - you are a sick man.

Edited by dalsingh101, 26 November 2010 - 02:48 PM.

[tonyhp32]

As I have written numerous times on other threads many people including Dalsingh101 have very little experience or knowledge of what is happening in Punjab. I doubt he's even been to a Punjabi village given the amount of ignorant statements he has made about Jats or as he refers to them farmers. Commenting on issues that one does not have much knowledge of or bringing an anecdote of a desi eyeing up a 15 year old gori as a basis for justifying ignorant remarks about Jats having a phenomena of 'rapists' within their ranks is just another manifestation of his hatred for Jats. Using the cloak of Sikhism to justify his hatred just makes him a bad the Jats he criticises. It's laughable that just because he's heard Jat guys making comments just like Pakis. I suppose he never heard any Tarkhan guy say the same thing. Talk about stereotyping, he's more like the British colonialists he claims to despise only they believed in a martial race theory and he believes in a 'rapist' Jat theory!

Let's get to the crux of the matter and look to official crime statistics and not anecdotes of Desis eyeing up Goris as a basis of our beliefs. According to the official publications, Crime in India which are similar to the crime surveys published by the UK authorities there are the figures.

Out of 15,962 crimes of rape recorded in India in 1999, 282 or 1.76% were in Punjab. Population wise Punjab is 2.50% of the total Indian population. I suppose those rapist Jats didn't have a very good year that year considering the fact that in Dalsingh's mind they do nothing but rape low castes all day. In fact the statistics state that whilst in India the incidence of rape of scheduled caste was 1000 only 7 of these were in Punjab!

On Dalsingh's favourite subject of caste, of the 14,578 offences registered under the prevention of atrocities against scheduled castes/schedules tribes act, a mere 15 were recorded in Punjab! Even the way such offences are registered is a mockery as recently a Jat father murdered a low caste guy who he discovered in the middle of the night with his daughter in a compromising position in his own house! The low caste guy had jumped a wall into the Jat's house. The Jat killed the low caste guy and guess under what act he was booked? The prevention of atrocities against scheduled castes/tribes act! How does that square with Dalsingh's idea of what is happening in Punjab? Admit it Dalsingh, you've never been to Punjab and if you have you probably spent the whole time in the company of your non-jat family probably tarkhans in a town looking down on jats and taking the piss out of them and using the term Jatboot in every sentence.

For someone who makes a great many constructive contributions to the debates on this forum, it's sad that you let your hatred of Jats come to the fore in many threads.