43 replies to this topic

[dalsingh101]

jaikaara, on 01 December 2010 - 05:51 PM, said:

ok, i can agree , is voicing out our emotions of feeling bad abt this issue sensible ? i see this as offering a shoulder, maybe speak to the victims families directly.

the thing is it is to convey to those gangs be it paki or non paki , that the society is united against crimes and such ones being the worst.

IT IS TO SHOW THE POWER OF ONE !

What, like we showed the 'power of one' with Congress around independence. That worked out really cool for Sikhs in the end didn't it......

Like we showed the 'power of one' with the British during their empire only to be left to fend for ourselves at independence at the cost of God knows how many Sikh lives, Sikh sovereignty and historical Gurdwaras....

Like some Sikhs show this 'power of one' with BJP only to be denied a separate identity..


Like some idiot Sikhs show this 'power of one' with the BNP only to be considered 'pakis' by the vast majority of their supporters, or tools against sullay at best - whether they admit or not....

Wake up man!


No offense to anyone, but one can really get a sense of how other quoms regularly manage to manipulate Sikhs with the staggeringly naive understanding of politics, race and social psychology demonstrated between Sikhs discussing such issues.

To be honest, I don't really consider us a real warrior quom any more. We just aint got the mentality any more. If we aren't going in that direction I guess we'd better produce the smartest geeks around then. And get used to hearing about our own folks regularly getting their arses kicked and girls being taken advantage of, willingly and unwittingly.

I'm not at all surprised that a lot of Sikhs girls dislike relationships with Sikh blokes the way our much of quom is going on these days. Hardly fills you with pride now does it.

It's like someone on another forum said. Post annexation we have adopted a slave mentality towards other races.

Edited by dalsingh101, 01 December 2010 - 07:59 PM.

[jaikaara]

arre veer ji fer ehda ki solution ?? ajj mere prhaa nu baot karoadh aa rhya...ki gal hai mere prhaa dal singha mood kharaab hai ?

[dalsingh101]

jaikaara, on 01 December 2010 - 09:05 PM, said:

arre veer ji fer ehda ki solution ?? ajj mere prhaa nu baot karoadh aa rhya...ki gal hai mere prhaa dal singha mood kharaab hai ?

ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਹਾਂ ਵੀਰਾ. ਕੋਈ ਨਾ, ਅੰਤ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਬ ਦੀ ਮਰਜ਼ੀ ਆ.

[jaikaara]

o koi nai veera, main samaj sakda haan, guys dont misunderstand dalsinghji i have read his posts before too, he is not a man to discriminate between jatt bhappe, sometimes we will need to understand that we all may say things in a way that it is being misunderstood.

of all that i get from his posts is, he wants us to realise that we should not just focus on pakis doing this shit, this same nonsense although rare is taking place in our pinds too. so just as we get concious when a paki does this, we also need to react when a apne does it with someone.

am i right dalsingh veer ji ? do correct me here if i have misinterpret.

[dalsingh101]

You're spot on veer ji. It's just really weak to complain about something when we have similar going on in our own society. We have to have the moral 'high ground' so to speak, and not because we want to look down on others but rather because God sent us people to teach us to be better, but these days there doesn't seem to be a low that is low enough for some apnay to go.

It isn't right to be infuriated when a pak does this and then go on like apnay doing something similar (not identical mind you) is a minor thing.

The issue at hand here (to me) seems to be one where an interpretation of a culture or a religion causes a mindset that dehumanises certain outsiders to those who follow it. This factor then interacts with the inherent kaam in man and causes people to work out their kaam instincts and hatred of the other community, in one shot.

Edited by dalsingh101, 03 December 2010 - 01:24 AM.

[jaikaara]

you are right veer ji , absolutely right, let me try to explain the psychology how i feel it works, in this case particularly and do correct me if i am wrong.

the muslim involvement with such incidents have always been high, in fact we can get material from like say the last 1000 years or so and see how high it is. Now this is how group hatred must have started :-

the muslims are well organised so whenever it comes to shielding someone there it had been much easier.

the sikhs and hindus have always been in clusters of their zaat, they are like divided we stand , united we fall. Such random attacks where the role of muslims had been noticed time and again had been a concern.

Now we all know how difficult it is to arouse anger and mobilise apne. However with the past history and with the currently on going incidents where there was a repeated involvement of muslim youth, there has been global hatred towards them and this has turned into a ghetto mentality be it sikhs , hindus, buddhists , goray and the list is just adding up.

a sikh who hates a musalman, when talking about this in a bus or train will look around and his eyes are searching the others like that of hindus in particular, this is the same as in case of a hindu.

it is now a organised hatred coming up, in the recent years jews have extended their friendship to india and are keen on helping them fight islamic terror.

the voice of a sikh and a hindu who is searching and seeking support has more voices to get in the chorus, the recent add up of goray.

This can be undone only if the decent muslims contribute their part and instead of giving refuge to those rotten apples just discard them.

[jaikaara]

similiarly the hatred against the 'high' caste dalits ( i call them and regard them higher to brahmins since a safai sevaadar (bhangi in the castiest language) does what no one ordinary can do, you would recite saloks and do the pooja paath but you wont like to take the broom in yor hand and step in the gutter ) caste dalits, churra charamkaars (i dont call them chamars since i consider it as art and a very beautiful one)

the buffons neechle zaat bamans khatri baniya ( i consider these lower since i dont feel any respect for people who lack humanity) will never feel the pain or be able to understand what it means to be denied water when you are dying just because you are born in a 'caste'.

I have been close to dalits since i was born in maharashtra and have studied the ambedkarite mentality. but let me tell you this, this caste factor doesnt end here it goes down deep down to the lowest strata.

a charamkaar wont give his beti to a safai sevaadar (bhangi)...i can only do ardas that may Dasve Paatsaahji's words ' Sab Manas Jaat ko EK Pehechaanbo' come true.

[Xylitol]

dalsingh101, on 03 December 2010 - 01:23 AM, said:

You're spot on veer ji. It's just really weak to complain about something when we have similar going on in our own society. We have to have the moral 'high ground' so to speak, and not because we want to look down on others but rather because God sent us people to teach us to be better, but these days there doesn't seem to be a low that is low enough for some apnay to go.

It isn't right to be infuriated when a pak does this and then go on like apnay doing something similar (not identical mind you) is a minor thing.

The issue at hand here (to me) seems to be one where an interpretation of a culture or a religion causes a mindset that dehumanises certain outsiders to those who follow it. This factor then interacts with the inherent kaam in man and causes people to work out their kaam instincts and hatred of the other community, in one shot.

umm... we have been going around in circles about this for a few days now. If you mean rape, then yes it happens in all societies including punjab. If you mean rape gangs preferentially targetting people outside of their community, no - i don't see that happening among punjabis or most other communities. We see a very high amount of this shit coming from pakistanis though. lets try to be real about this. just b/c we acknowledge this fact doesn't mean that all of a sudden we deny that rape occurs from other quarters as well.

[dalsingh101]

Xylitol, on 03 December 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

umm... we have been going around in circles about this for a few days now. If you mean rape, then yes it happens in all societies including punjab. If you mean rape gangs preferentially targetting people outside of their community, no - i don't see that happening among punjabis or most other communities. We see a very high amount of this shit coming from pakistanis though. lets try to be real about this. just b/c we acknowledge this fact doesn't mean that all of a sudden we deny that rape occurs from other quarters as well.

Okay, but we have to be careful because certain people from our own community seem to like pointing out flaw in other quoms (fair enough), but then get shy of acknowledging let alone trying to attempt to face nonsense we have going on amongst ourselves.

Yes, I agree that certain perversions aren't as pronounced in our society compared to Paks. I think that mentality differs in that when Ps do it, they get uncles, friends, cousins in on the act. When some of our lot do it, they do it as lone wolves. Personally I still think the underlying causes of the type of religio-cultural rape scenario (typified by Pakistani on nonMuslim here) and intercaste rape (typified by Jat on perceived lower castes) is a pretty similar mechanism. To contextualise, I would say it also existed in Anglo society not long ago during slavery, with with rapes of African women by white men.

These things seem to die down with the emergence of an increasingly accepted egalitarian social structure amongst people.

Edited by dalsingh101, 04 December 2010 - 04:36 PM.

[amardeep]

We had a case here with 12 asian men raping a little 12 year old girl for a period of 12 months.

they were all tamil

[dalsingh101]

It's important to distinguish between the perversions in my opinion.

One is purely a form of kaam perversion, another is that - but with an extra added element. A meeting place between the nonces and their ideological beliefs if you like.

Not every pervert has a component of ideological belief underlying (at least partially) their actions. But some, like those Ps in the OP do most likely do. The question to ask is whether they would have done something similar to any other young Ps girl they may have encountered?

From what I understand such people frequently act like 'shepherds' towards their own kuriaan but have a totally different set of values in place for kurian of other quoms.

Another possibly related factor, it might be worth mentioning is the possible role of an excessively conservative attitude to even discussing matters of sex and quom in a society possibly leading to further repressed feelings that eventually come out in twisted ways? Does this play a part?

Edited by dalsingh101, 04 December 2010 - 05:43 PM.

[Mithar]

dalsingh101, on 04 December 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

Personally I still think the underlying causes of the type of religio-cultural rape scenario (typified by Pakistani on nonMuslim here) and intercaste rape (typified by Jat on perceived lower castes) is a pretty similar mechanism.

Brother normally I'm very much in agreement with you on other topics. But being from Punjab I have not seen this. Yes, rapes and harassment happens as it happens in all societies and castes, but your assertion that it is particularly prevalent amongst Jats and not others is untrue as the factual data shown by Tony Jee. A Jat is just as much or less likely to rape or harass a young girl as a Tarkhan, Bramin, Khatri, Chura or Chamar is. The situation in Punjab is very different from other states. What we see in movies like Bandit Queen which is based in UP should not be confused with the social environment of Punjab but many people tend to make that mistake.

[dalsingh101]

Mithar, on 05 December 2010 - 12:16 AM, said:

Brother normally I'm very much in agreement with you on other topics. But being from Punjab I have not seen this. Yes, rapes and harassment happens as it happens in all societies and castes, but your assertion that it is particularly prevalent amongst Jats and not others is untrue as the factual data shown by Tony Jee. A Jat is just as much or less likely to rape or harass a young girl as a Tarkhan, Bramin, Khatri, Chura or Chamar is. The situation in Punjab is very different from other states. What we see in movies like Bandit Queen which is based in UP should not be confused with the social environment of Punjab but many people tend to make that mistake.

You know a few times I've been mistaken for being Jatt and certain brothers have opened their mouths around me like I imagine they wouldn't have done, had they known otherwise. Other times desi Jatt guys have openly bragged (remember I've worked with a good few over the years), about the disgraceful treatment of 'lower' caste girls at their hands. They were actually proud of it.

I'm not saying that the other jaats haven't got balatkaars, every society does. But what I am saying is that another dimension to such abuse often takes place between groups that have prolonged hierarchically based hostility between them. It seems as if rape and general sexual abuse seems to become an extension of that ingrained hostility. Hence Muslims doing it to perceived enemies.

Whether you recognise it or not, Jatt culture has extremely strong characteristics of jealousy and hatred towards other so called 'lower' village based castes. This is what effects the attitudes of many Jatts towards others. Some take it to really low levels.

The other thing is the very nature of Panjabi society with it's nepotism and general corruption, means that those who hold power are frequently unaccountable for misdeeds compared to the poor and underclass.

I don't expect any Jatt man to face up to this as frequently we have a blindness to our own people's actions. It's some social effect it seems, another clear example being how so many whites act absolutely flabbergasted at incidents of racism, despite the fact that many people feel that racism affects more of white society and behaviour than they care to admit.

The thread has gone on now. I think it's shifted a bit. In the end all I have to say is that whilst we keep our eyes open for antiSikh attacks via perverts from outside, we should also strive to keep such things minimised in our own society. Naivety or denial of its occurrence wont help do this.

Fair enough if you can't see it happening, but sometimes consider taking an outsiders view, without considering it to be motivated by anything other than good intentions for all our society.

Edited by dalsingh101, 05 December 2010 - 11:02 PM.

[sarbatdapala]

These lot are being taught to this stuff in madrassas what is the goverment doing to shut them down and if they are unwilling to what is the sikh community doing to stop this. Because today that girl tommorow your mother, your sister, your daughter what are you going to do to stop this what happened to soorma bahadur khalsa who stopped dusht is not anyone even going to peacefully protest anything!

Edited by sarbatdapala, 01 March 2011 - 12:57 AM.