96 replies to this topic

[SikhKhoj]

I request anyone replying to this thread to reply to the following questions, citing proofs if necessary.

1. Was the Khande Di Pahul ceremony held on Vaisakh 1699 (30th of March 1699) or an earlier date? Pyara Singh Padam says that Puratan granths give several dates, some even giving 1695 as a possible date.

2. Was there any tent where the Guru bhought the Panj Pyare too?

3. The 5 persons who took Amrit after the 5 Pyare are really the 5 Mukteh or is this just made up?

4. How many people were given Pahul? (sources estimate from 20,000 to 80,000)

5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor?

6. Did women get pahul? If so, were they ordered to keep the name Kaur? Did they wear Keskis / Dumalleh?

7. Did all Sikhs take pahul?


I will add more questions lateron.

I asked these questions so that we can have a more accurate views with some discussion with historical sources as base.

DalSingh, I was talking about this kind of 'research'.

Edited by SikhKhoj, 12 May 2011 - 05:34 PM.

[dalsingh101]

Before anyone even responds, we should recognise that itihaasik research (or more specifically textual based research) can often contradict the traditional understanding of the faith. This can cause a lot of upset (as it is seen as an attack on the faith) and accusations of being antiSikh.

[Mithar]

SikhKhoj, on 12 May 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor?

Not according to the Buddah Dal Gutka which lists 5 Kakkars.

[SikhKhoj]

Quote

Before anyone even responds, we should recognise that itihaasik research (or more specifically textual based research) can often contradict the traditional understanding of the faith. This can cause a lot of upset (as it is seen as an attack on the faith) and accusations of being antiSikh.

Agreed.

Quote

Not according to the Buddah Dal Gutka which lists 5 Kakkars.

That is why I said 'some'. Not all Nihangs say it, but most of the people who believe in the Trai Mudra are Nihangs (I could be wrong, but that is the impression I have been getting).

[zulu]

ਕਛ, ਕੇਸ, ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਨ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਿਤ, ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਾ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਭਏ॥੫॥
Kach, Kesh, and Kirpan – these three signs made followers of the Guru the servants [also] of the Lord


it should be kard...not kirpan

taken from : http://www.manglacha...a-di-sajna.html


According to some the basic kakkars you must have on you are the above 3 at all times....

Edited by zulu, 12 May 2011 - 06:43 PM.

[SikhKhoj]

Also answer the others questions so that we can start discussing.

DalSingh, no replies?

[dalsingh101]

SikhKhoj, on 12 May 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

1. Was the Khande Di Pahul ceremony held on Vaisakh 1699 (30th of March 1699) or an earlier date? Pyara Singh Padam says that Puratan granths give several dates, some even giving 1695 as a possible date:

I've heard there are such discrepancies but no one disputes the event. Any differences of dates doesn't really really affect the faithful, it's more of an academic issue.

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2. Was there any tent where the Guru bhought the Panj Pyare too?

I'd always thought so, but then this was influenced by oral renditions of the Vasaikhi story I heard growing up.

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3. The 5 persons who took Amrit after the 5 Pyare are really the 5 Mukteh or is this just made up?

We have to establish the first source for the 5 mukte story and find some motive for making it up.

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4. How many people were given Pahul? (sources estimate from 20,000 to 80,000)

Prof. Sahib Singh seems to think about 25,000.

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5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor?

There seems to be a strong case for kesh, kashera and 5 weapons. That isn't to say that kanghay and karay weren't worn from the beginning as well.

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6. Did women get pahul? If so, were they ordered to keep the name Kaur? Did they wear Keskis / Dumalleh?

We've discussed the surname thing on the forum before. It appears as if the Singh Sabha standardised the use of the name Kaur (which was used before), whilst successfully terminating the use of 'Devi' as a female Sikh surname. I've only seen a few, rare European images of female nihangs wearing a pagh, most of the surviving images of Sikh females don't appear to have them wearing keskis/dummalahs. Don't know if any women took amrit on the original day though. Later they clearly did.

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7. Did all Sikhs take pahul?

There are mentions of sehajdharis in the Chaupa rehit and some cases of prominent nonKhalsa Sikhs (like Kaura Maal). This would suggest no.

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DalSingh, I was talking about this kind of 'research'.

It's interesting but sometimes it just seems to lead to grief and recriminations. lol

Besides, I do believe that there is much that we probably can't establish with absolute certainty based on the surviving historical evidence, so the endeavour leads us back to fuzzyish grasp of the past. Gaps which may well be filled with oral traditions. So we have to recogise (from the beginning) that such endeavours can lead to as many questions as answers and be careful not to get distracted from the act of dharam itself, amongst all the intellectualising. Too many people do this and then start crying about loss of faith.

Edited by dalsingh101, 12 May 2011 - 07:12 PM.

[SikhKhoj]

dalsingh101, on 12 May 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

I've heard there are such discrepancies but no one disputes the event. Any differences of dates doesn't really really affect the faithful, it's more of an academic issue.

Yes. But still it would be nice to know the exact date, no?


I'd always thought so, but then this was influenced by oral renditions of the Vasaikhi story I heard growing up.

What if we got all sources mentioning Amrit Sanchar ceremony togheter and then pick up the correct information?


We have to establish the first source for the 5 mukte story and find some motive for making it up.

Well, you know how some myths crept into Sikhi, that way. But yes there are a few sources mentioning 5 Muktas,


Prof. Sahib Singh seems to think about 25,000.

What does research of historical sources tell us?


There seems to be a strong case for kesh, kashera and 5 weapons. That isn't to say that kanghay and karay weren't worn from the beginning as well.

Yes. Kanghas and Karas were for sure worn. I'd give the same suggestion as before; collecting all sources mentioning Sanchaar of 1699. Sri Gur Sobha, Gur Katha, Gurbilases, Bansawlinama, etc


We've discussed the surname thing on the forum before. It appears as if the Singh Sabha standardised the use of the name Kaur (which was used before), whilst successfully terminating the use of 'Devi' as a female Sikh surname. I've only seen a few, rare European images of female nihangs wearing a pagh, most of the surviving images of Sikh females don't appear to have them wearing keskis/dummalahs. Don't know if any women took amrit on the original day though. Later they clearly did.


Can you shortly summarise about the Kaur issue? It was even used in 7th Gurus time, but I meant if the tenth Guru enforced Kaur on bibian like Singh on banday. Devi was much in use, thats true.

I agree that mostly Nihangnis wore Dumalley. Who started this tradition of normal Bibian wearing keskis? Bhai Randhir Singh? Teja Singh Bhasaur?


There are mentions of sehajdharis in the Chaupa rehit and some cases of prominent nonKhalsa Sikhs (like Kaura Maal). This would suggest no.

That is for sure. What about Nand Lal, did he take Amrit too?


It's interesting but sometimes it just seems to lead to grief and recriminations. lol

Besides, I do believe that there is much that we probably can't establish with absolute certainty based on the surviving historical evidence, so the endeavour leads us back to fuzzyish grasp of the past. Gaps which may well be filled with oral traditions. So we have to recogise (from the beginning) that such endeavours can lead to as many questions as answers and be careful not to get distracted from the act of dharam itself, amongst all the intellectualising. Too many people do this and then start crying about loss of faith.

Yes leads to grief but we got to research it. Not all printed Granths are the surviving ones. So many Rehatnamas and smaller works are scattered in libraries of Punjab, but nobody cares for that. Our history lies in museums of Britain, Pakistan, etc
The printed ones are mostly the ones the likes of Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Ganda Singh, Prof. Pyara Singh Padam, ... found, edited and got them printed. I am sure so much gems are still in Khalsa College Libraries, Patiala library etc.

[sarbatdapala]

My two cents input to this is also I am some how relating this but when maharaj say " ik sa savalakh laroo " 1 = 125,000

Intresting enough prophet muhammad has 124,000 companions so aurangzeb = 1 (prophet) + 124,000 (sahabas) = 125,000

chirri si baaj laroo. Maybe there is also a significance with the falcon bird.


"Falcons have powerful – in fact spiritual – meaning in the lives of both Sikhs and Muslims. The Muslim prophet Mohammed hunted with trained falcons, whose prey is prescribed in the Holy Koran as Halaal (acceptable) for the diet of Muslim believers. Arab falconers live with one foot in the world of their ancestors and the Muslim prophet Mohammed, when they return to the desert each year to hunt with priceless collections of al-Hurr (trained sport falcons).
" http://www.savethefa...rg/raptors.aspx

Edited by sarbatdapala, 12 May 2011 - 08:41 PM.

[laalsingh]

Nice.

Edited by laalsingh, 12 May 2011 - 08:53 PM.

[dalsingh101]

Sarbat has to bring Islam into everything.

Nutjob.

Edited by dalsingh101, 12 May 2011 - 09:53 PM.

[dalsingh101]

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Yes. But still it would be nice to know the exact date, no?

What if we can't with 100% certainty?

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What if we got all sources mentioning Amrit Sanchar ceremony togheter and then pick up the correct information?

The nearest sources seem quite sparse in such details. But it would be interesting to see what we come out with if we combined Sainpati's Gursobha, Sewa das's parchian, Kankan's Das Gur Katha accounts (plus any other contemporary/near contemporary ones). We still aren't going to get a lot of detail about the ceremony though.

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Well, you know how some myths crept into Sikhi, that way. But yes there are a few sources mentioning 5 Muktas,

I don't know anything about them.

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What does research of historical sources tell us?

What if no one was counting?

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Yes. Kanghas and Karas were for sure worn. I'd give the same suggestion as before; collecting all sources mentioning Sanchaar of 1699. Sri Gur Sobha, Gur Katha, Gurbilases, Bansawlinama, etc

Yes. I'm still shocked that Bhangu's Panth Parkash doesn't mention it.

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Can you shortly summarise about the Kaur issue? It was even used in 7th Gurus time, but I meant if the tenth Guru enforced Kaur on bibian like Singh on banday. Devi was much in use, thats true.

Nothing to it. Seems like Singh Sabha just formalised the use of Kaur for all Sikh females, whereas before this seems to have been different?

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I agree that mostly Nihangnis wore Dumalley. Who started this tradition of normal Bibian wearing keskis? Bhai Randhir Singh? Teja Singh Bhasaur?

I'd guess Bhai Randhir Singh. He seems to have had the most success in popularising it anyway.

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That is for sure. What about Nand Lal, did he take Amrit too?

Thing with individual cases like that is that we can argue till we are blue in the face about it and still never know for certain. Plus for certain 'pious' types there could be no question that he wasn't amritdhari. Better than this would be to try and draw the essence of what the unquestionable works attributed to him are conveying I reckon.

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Yes leads to grief but we got to research it. Not all printed Granths are the surviving ones. So many Rehatnamas and smaller works are scattered in libraries of Punjab, but nobody cares for that. Our history lies in museums of Britain, Pakistan, etc
The printed ones are mostly the ones the likes of Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Ganda Singh, Prof. Pyara Singh Padam, ... found, edited and got them printed. I am sure so much gems are still in Khalsa College Libraries, Patiala library etc.

You hit the nail on the head here. But seeing as understanding even printed 'ye olde' Gurmukhi can be very difficult for the average Joe Singh, what chance is there of reading/understanding manuscripts with larivaar writing! Any other nation would have university departments dedicated to this type of research but as usual, our lot are slack to an extreme in this area. Plus people are wary, because when apnay get faced with uncomfortable facts about our itihaas, that question the modern accepted narrative, they get upset and turn it into some sort of angry battle with serious aspersions cast on people. I can understand as on one hand as goray DO like to undermine other people's cultures in this way, but when this hostility turns internally, into yet another divisive fissure in an already a splintered quom, it makes you rue.

But yes, I'd like to see more quality translations and studies of our written heritage/history. With the fortunes received by the SGPC, I find it sad, this is not being done already. But they are hardly going to deviate from a conservative interpretation in any case.

Edited by dalsingh101, 13 May 2011 - 08:46 AM.

[Silence]

There are lots of paintings showing Sikh women wearing dastara/keskia before bhai randhir singh ji. In fact it was actually a requirement for women to be wearing a keski to recieve amrit until the 1920s, when the akal takht jathedar was Gurmukh Singh Musafir. Proof here: http://www.tribunein...60420/aplus.htm scroll down to section called 'votes for hindi' and its the second paragraph of that section.

evidence keski was the original kakkar, evidence of women wearing keskis from puratan times and historical photos of bibia wearing keskis here: http://www.sikhanswe...as-the-kakkaar/

Edited by Silence, 13 May 2011 - 08:36 AM.

[dalsingh101]

Silence, on 13 May 2011 - 08:35 AM, said:

There are lots of paintings showing Sikh women wearing dastara/keskia before bhai randhir singh ji. In fact it was actually a requirement for women to be wearing a keski to recieve amrit until the 1920s, when the akal takht jathedar was Gurmukh Singh Musafir. Proof here: http://www.tribunein...60420/aplus.htm scroll down to section called 'votes for hindi' and its the second paragraph of that section.

I asked my very old nani before she passed away and she told me females wearing dastars was a minority practice and chunnis were more commonly used to cover the head by Sikh females.

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evidence keski was the original kakkar, evidence of women wearing keskis from puratan times and historical photos of bibia wearing keskis here: http://www.sikhanswe...as-the-kakkaar/

Like I said, it seems to have been minority practice amongst Sikh women. Sure, some wore it, no one is disputing that, but whether it was the norm, like it was/is amongst Sikh men seems highly unlikely given the evidence. To me it appears as if it was the wives of nihangs who did this the most in the past?

Edited by dalsingh101, 13 May 2011 - 09:15 AM.

[amardeep]

check your emails

Edited by amardeep, 13 May 2011 - 10:51 AM.