31 replies to this topic

[dalsingh101]

This short paper explores the fate of the Panjabi language under British rule, written from a Pakistani perspective. One of the things I found interesting is the author's analysis of why the Brits initially tried to push Urdu as the formal state language for communication after their invasion.

The way people subsequently divided themselves along a linguistic basis which was really a barely concealed cleaving along religious lines is important. After the British left, we saw the same pattern emerge during the Panjab suba movement between Sikhs and Hindus.

Attached File(s)

•  Panjabi language_Rahman.pdf (69.31K)
  Number of downloads: 13

Edited by dalsingh101, 19 May 2011 - 11:25 AM.

[chatanga1]

V interesting. I kind of despise the fact that Panjabi is not used in the official business in Pakistan. I taught myself to read Urdu, upto the level of about a 9/10 year old child, and in the book that i was reading from, it told about how there were different provinces in Pakistan, and how each of them had their indigenous tongue as the state language, but in Punjab it completely omitted any reference to Panjabi language saying they spoke Urdu. I thought to myself that is terrible, that Panjabi children are being denied this.

But I have heard from a pakistani acquaintance that panjabi is a language of ruffians/un-educated people while Urdu is the language of civilised educated people.

A friend from Lahore visited recently, and he would talk in panjabi with us, but in Urdu to his kids, and I just felt a rage build up inside me, and controlling myself I asked politely why do you talk in Urdu over Panjabi? Doesnt your son speak Panjabi? They said yes, but not very well.

Another friend of mine from Lahore said they would not allow their infant son to speak panjabi in the house.

However not all bads news. I beleive there is a move by panjabis in pakistan to bring the teaching of panjabi to state schools.


This ia a reply i recieved from a guy in Pakistan about panjabi language in Pakistan:

Sardar Ji
Punjabi is going down the drain. Its future is bleak in Pakistan. Its future is bleak in the Indian Punjab too, though it will take longer for Punjabi to disappear in your side. Punjabis are truly "mother-admin cut". I know a number of Malaysian Sikhs who cannot speak Punjabi. The Garanth Sharif will not save Punjabi if the Punjabis do not save their langauge. But, as I just said, we are all maather-admin cut and a gandu qom.


finally check out this link for the views on this subject:

http://mastmalang.wo...njabi-language/

Edited by chatanga1, 18 May 2011 - 06:22 PM.

[Mithar]

True. How sad that the only nation in the world which is a Punjabi majority and Punjabi dominated nation Pakistan, yet Punjabi boli has no official status. If anything it is looked down upon as a language of uneducated people by them. It would have been a great service to the Punjabi language if it had an official status in Pakistan like it gives to Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi. I don't know why the Pakistani establishment considers Urdu more Islamic than Punjabi considering that all the great Sufi Saints of Punjab for the last 1000 years have only written in Punjabi and not Urdu. But the way things are going in Pakistan, the future of that nation seems uncertain. I wouldn't be surprised of Pakistan will Balkanize within our lifetime. I wonder what the status of Urdu will be then.

Even in our Punjab, it is not uncommon to see Punjabi Hindus speaking Hindi with each other and their children instead of Punjabi. That looks very strange every time you see that. Punjabis are probably the only people in the world who have disowned their own language in favour of neighboring languages.

Bhai Vir Singh Jee deserves a lot of credit for making Punjabi into an acceptable literary language amongst the masses. His contemporary Iqbal was also a Punjabi from Sialkot but he only wrote in Farsi and Urdu. Imagine the contribution he could have made to Punjabi with the knowledge he had. In the Diaspora, Sikhs have also started to abandon Punjabi in favour of English. I have seen so many western born Sikhs who cannot even speak their language all thanks to their parents who only speak English with their western born kids.

[dalsingh101]

What is remarkable, in light of what was contained in that paper, is how so many Pakistanis consider Urdu to be their indigenous language.

As a teacher I noticed that second language skills, be they Urdu, Pashtu, Farsi or Panjabi where MUCH higher amongst young Pakistani students compared to Sikhs who, more often than not, were barely able to communicate in their mother tongue.

Pakistani students themselves were acutely aware of the issues around Urdu and Panjabi, with some openly claiming that Urdu is a beautiful language whilst Panjabi was 'vulgar' and common. A few Pak proPanjabi students were also aware of the fact that the language was dying in their country without support.

Notice how the paper suggests that apnay were cool about teaching their children Panjabi when faced with the associated issues of social mobility restrictions arising from it. It goes back to that old notion of apnay being status obsessed over most other things.

The truth is that most of us second gens, learned the language not because we wanted to, but because our parents English was so poor. The inadvertent side effect of this was to make us fluent. But even then you come across those who can understand it, but are unable to speak it.

I spoke about this to some freshies (who have very young children here) at the Gurdwara recently and what I found was that they were completely oblivious to the linguistics issues that they will face in relation to their children growing up here.

But with that all said, people have never had to so good, with so much literature available for free online, and various free language resources available too (like edictionaries). But it doesn't appear as if the motivation to preserve, develop and learn the language exists to any great extent?

Edited by dalsingh101, 19 May 2011 - 11:56 AM.

[SikhKhoj]

Bhai Vir Singh did bad by saying Punjabi was only the language of Sikhs - this while Punjabi is not really the language of Sikhs - Guru Granth Sahib doesn't have that much Punjabi in it.

Pakistan has a rising movement of the languages of the provinces. While Sindhi, Pashtun and Balochi are not official languages in their respective provinces, the people still communicate in that language, while Punjabis prefer talking in Urdu as they feel it to be a language of ganwaars or paindus (uneducated people or 'villagers').

South Punjabis (actually Balochi settlers in South Punjab) are wanting a seperate province, Seraikistan, this has woken up some Punjabis in Pak.

http://www.apnaorg.com/articles/plm-4/

[Mithar]

SikhKhoj, on 19 May 2011 - 02:58 PM, said:

Bhai Vir Singh did bad by saying Punjabi was only the language of Sikhs - this while Punjabi is not really the language of Sikhs - Guru Granth Sahib doesn't have that much Punjabi in it.

Pakistan has a rising movement of the languages of the provinces. While Sindhi, Pashtun and Balochi are not official languages in their respective provinces, the people still communicate in that language, while Punjabis prefer talking in Urdu as they feel it to be a language of ganwaars or paindus (uneducated people or 'villagers').

South Punjabis (actually Balochi settlers in South Punjab) are wanting a seperate province, Seraikistan, this has woken up some Punjabis in Pak.

http://www.apnaorg.com/articles/plm-4/

How did Bhai Vir Singh Jee do bad by promoting Punjabi? if the Muslims and Hindus have largely abandoned their mother tongue in favour of neighboring languages does not mean Sikhs should follow their foot steps. Punjabi Sikhs have proved time after time that they are the loyal sons of Punjab. Yes Guru Granth Sahib Jee jee is not really all in Punjabi, but Punjabi is heavily used in Gurbani especially the Bani of Baba Farid Jee, Bhai Gurdas Dhiyaan Varaan and even Dasam Granth Banis like Chandi Di Vaar. Sikhs also should study Braj, Sant Bhasha and Farsi because those language have also been heavily used in Sikh scriptures. But if a Sikh is Punjabi he should be loyal to his language.

If Punjabi Sikhs decide to be disloyal to Punjabi language then who will be left to stand up for the Punjabi language? The Punjabi language is every Punjabi's responsibility whether he be Sikh, Hindu or Muslim but so far only Sikhs have largely taken up this responsibility on their shoulders.

Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi do have official status in their respective provinces. They are taught in all the schools and even spoken in their state parliaments while Punjabi has no such status because Punjabi Muslims think of Punjabi as an uncultured language while Urdu is thought of as a language of class, status and national unity.

[chatanga1]

SikhKhoj, on 19 May 2011 - 02:58 PM, said:

Pakistan has a rising movement of the languages of the provinces. While Sindhi, Pashtun and Balochi are not official languages in their respective provinces,

South Punjabis (actually Balochi settlers in South Punjab) are wanting a seperate province, Seraikistan, this has woken up some Punjabis in Pak.

I dont know who told you that but its not true, Sindhi, Balochi and Pashtu are official languages in their own region as well as Urdu, which is the national language.

Seraiki is a dialect of Panjabi, as there are many dialects of panjabi, and the move to get seraiki recognised as an offical language has taken momentum.

About 3 months ago i met a guy from Pakistan, from hazara, who spoke Hindko, which is a dialect of Panjabi, and i could eunderstand most of what he was saying, even though i couldnt speak it and vice versa. Hindko is recognised as a seperate language in Pakistan, and this is what the seraiki speakers want for seraiki.

[SikhKhoj]

My mistake, I meant official country languages. They are recognised only on provincial level, national level only Urdu.

Seraiki is a dialect of Punjabi, but some people and politicans do want to divide Punjab. Since 1970s or so Pakistan has seperated Seraiki language from Punjabi, and now there are demands to seperate Seraiki Suba (south Punjab) from Punjab. This has also to do with economy, Southern Punjab is poor compared to the rest of Punjab.

Hazara is in Pakhtunkwa, Pathan region, they are calling for a seperate province of their own too. And Hindko is indeed a dialect of Punjabi (and so is Seraiki).

Edited by SikhKhoj, 19 May 2011 - 06:27 PM.

[SikhKhoj]

http://www.nation.co...LQ-talks-Gilani

[Mithar]

SikhKhoj, on 19 May 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

My mistake, I meant official country languages. They are recognised only on provincial level, national level only Urdu.

Seraiki is a dialect of Punjabi, but some people and politicans do want to divide Punjab. Since 1970s or so Pakistan has seperated Seraiki language from Punjabi, and now there are demands to seperate Seraiki Suba (south Punjab) from Punjab. This has also to do with economy, Southern Punjab is poor compared to the rest of Punjab.

Hazara is in Pakhtunkwa, Pathan region, they are calling for a seperate province of their own too. And Hindko is indeed a dialect of Punjabi (and so is Seraiki).

The reasons you have pointed out why Saraiki is now being considered as a separate language are true. Otherwise in reality Saraiki is a just a dialect of Punjabi like Majhi, Doabi, Malwai, Pahari(Spoken in Himachal), Dogri(spoken in Jammu), Pothohari etc. Whenever I have met a person speaking Saraiki I could understand him and he can understand me.

If Pakistan will not give Punjabi language an official status, then I hope the Saraiki nationalists will be successful in creating their own province, atleast Punjabi in the indirect form of Saraiki dialect will survive and thrive which is a victory for the Punjabi language overall.

[SikhKhoj]

Yes, but Seraikis say they have nothing to do with Punjabis (not all, but the separatists).

Indeed.

Just a note, I have noticed that MOST Pak Punjabis that are proud to be Punjabi and speak the language are usual less orthodox (lets put it this way) than other Pakistani Muslims. I can be wrong too though.

BTW, Bagri spoken in northern Rajasthan can also be considered as a dialect of Punjabi.

Edited by SikhKhoj, 19 May 2011 - 07:42 PM.

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Just a note, I have noticed that MOST Pak Punjabis that are proud to be Punjabi and speak the language are usual less orthodox (lets put it this way) than other Pakistani Muslims. I can be wrong too though.

Seems like that to me too.

I think aspects of Panjabi culture (at least as it has become these days) is actually haram for the more orthodox. Especially the music.


I remember before hard Islam parchaar started in London and when there was a very popular 'asian' bhangra craze. One of the first things that sullay did was to preach against bhangra and very quickly a lot of Pakistanis (who formerly loved it), stopped listening to their Alaap, Heera, DCS cassettes.

I also remember the one and only Pak wedding I went to as a teenager and how the olders expressly forbade the playing of Bhangra to the disappointment of my school friend.

Edited by dalsingh101, 19 May 2011 - 08:49 PM.

[SikhKhoj]

Indeed.

Isn't it kind off forbidden in Sikhi too, all the Jattvaad (and now Chamarvaad too ), Sharaab, Kuri, Patoley songs.

I won't lie, I do listen to songs occasionaly and some lyrics do contain the above elements. I don't think we are another Islam forbidding songs here. Dirty songs however shouldn't be allowed, see all the bad that these songs (and movies) have done to the youth of Punjab. Couples elope in every second village in Punjab, aids, etc.

On a side note I feel that the film Khamosh Paani is quite well made, it shows how village Pakistani Punjabis were before and how they became lateron, after the Islamisation of Gen Zia Ul Haq. We see the Punjabi villager Saleem becoming a radicaled Muslim who at the end (30 years later or so) is preaching hatred while conversing in Urdu - I feel it quite nicely portrayed how radicalisation also 'eliminated' Punjabi (or maybe it is just because Pakistani TV don't have many Punjabi shows and the protagonist was on tv in the film, but I doubt that)

Edited by SikhKhoj, 19 May 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[SikhKhoj]

I know one thing for sure, Balochistan and some Sindhis are willing to seperate from Pakistan. Jihad is also going strong up in Pakhtunkhwa (they let it grow, now gone out of hand). So if ever Pakistan breaks, I will support West Pakistan as a country. I am seeing the demand of seperating from Pak, but they never express it openly because they are called kafirs, or told that they shouldn't listen to Hindu or Sikh propaganda. They brainwash them with the 'Muslim' thinking (Ummah). This ironically while Balochis and Sindhis also ask for a seperate country.

I once read in a Pakistanis article that it is only Punjabis and Pathans really supporting unity of Pak.

[dalsingh101]

Quote

because Pakistani TV don't have many Punjabi shows

When I see Panjabi films they seem comically unsophisticated and are usually just vehicles for the same old caste's agenda. Large chunks of Panjabi music isn't any better and pretty uncouth too, with drinking and kunjar behaviour being promoted.


Then we have this image of brightly coloured clothes wearing, smiling like Cheshire cats, dancing mindlessly......

When we have these things, and they are so visible, it only reinforces the idea that we are idiot pendus. I mean watch this and get an idea of how our culture is perceived.



Pendu productions.....

Edited by dalsingh101, 19 May 2011 - 09:21 PM.