57 replies to this topic

[amardeep]

Sorry for the late reply.. i just moved to London and did not have a proper internet connection until now.

[sarbatdapala]

"Hhow many paths are there to God? There are as many paths to God as there are souls on Earth" - Rumi

[SikhKhoj]

<p>This will be my last post. You are pretty thick up there LOL </p>
<p>just kidding</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Actually we just adhere to 2 different belief systems, we have got different approaches or even interpretations of Gurbani. You will never agree, no matter what I say lol<br />
<br />
I am very sure of my opinion, but sadly don't have enough time to keep arguing like this.<br />
<br />
I would like to end the thread with some Gurbani:</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>I have searched many Shastars and Simrtis, they do not show the way to God, but contemplation on God is invaluable.</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>
<div>The Simritee is the daughter of the Vedas, O Siblings of Destiny. She has brought a chain and a rope.</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>The Simritees and the Shaastras discriminate between good and evil, but they do not know the true essence of reality.</div>
</div>

[JatherdarSahib]

http://en.wikipedia....gious_pluralism


The holy book of the Sikhs (the Sri Guru Granth Sahib) says,

Quote

"Do not say that the Vedas and the Koran (semetic books i.e. Bible, torah and quran) are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false." Guru Granth Sahib page 1350.[21]

As well as;

Quote

Some call the Lord 'Ram, Ram', and some 'Khuda'. Some serve Him as 'Gusain', others as 'Allah'. He is the Cause of causes, and Generous. He showers His Grace and Mercy upon us. Some pilgrims bathe at sacred shrines, others go on Hajj to Mecca. Some do devotional worship, whilst others bow their heads in prayer. Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran. Some wear blue robes, and some wear white. Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindu. Some yearn for paradise, and others long for heaven. Says Nanak, one who realizes the Hukam of God's Will, knows the secrets of his Lord Master." (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page:885) [22]

Quote

"One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated. One who speaks lies shall fall into hell and burn. In all the world, the most blessed and sanctified are those who remain absorbed in Truth." (SGGS Ang 142)[23]

Quote

"The seconds,minutes,and hours,days,weeks and months and various seasons originate from One Sun; O nanak,in just the same way, the many forms originate from the Creator." Guru Granth Sahib page 12,13

The Guru Granth Sahib also says that Bhagat Namdev and Bhagat Kabir, who were both believed to be Hindus, both attained salvation though they were born before Sikhism took root and were clearly not Sikhs.This highlights and reinforces the Guru's saying that "peoples of other faiths" can join with God as true and also at the same time signify that Sikhism is not the exclusive path for liberation.

Additionally the Guru Granth Sahib says;

Quote

First, Allah (God) created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings. From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1|| [24]

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 07 November 2011 - 04:59 PM.

[laalsingh]

It is not that simple.

[JatherdarSahib]

We need to see why context is important. In that time if it was written clear cut, that a religion is wrong blatantly and will burn in hell and should become Sikh, Sikhi may have not grown at all as Islam said that what led to it's growth was state control, forcefully and other insentives. Hinduism was controlled by state but lost it's power at that time however is in power now.


"Make thy mind thy Mecca and make thy body thy temple of worship. This soul, the speaker is the Supreme Guru. O Maulvi, then utter thou the call to prayer. The one body mosque has ten doors. Slay thou thy wrath, doubt and malice and consume thine five demons. Thus thou shalt be blest with contentment. The Hindus and the Muslims have the same One Lord. For man, what can the Maulvi do and what can the Sheikh do?" (Bhagat Kabir, Bhairo, pg. 1158)

"The Hindu is blind and the Muslim is one-eyed. The Lord divine is the wiser of the two. The Hindu worships at the temple and the Muslim at the mosque. Namdev serves that Lord, who has neither a temple nor a mosque." (Bhagat Namdev, Gond, pg. 875)

"All the Vedas, the religious books of the Muslims, the Simirtis and Shashtras, by reading these, salvation is not obtained. He who by Guru's instruction utters the one Name; He gathers the pure glory." (Guru Arjan, Suhi, pg. 747)

http://www.sikhs.org/relig_qa.htm


"A Muslim understands the Muslim way of life and a Hindu the Vedas and Puranas. To instruct his mind, man ought to study Divine Knowledge to some extent. I know only the One Lord, who is the source of everything. I believe not in him, whom the Lord writes (creates) and erases (destroys). If someone sees the One Lord, he perishes not by beholding Him." (Bhagat Kabir, Gauri, pg. 340)

"If God abides only in the mosque, then to whom else does the rest of the country belong? According to Hindus the Lord's Name, abides in the idol, but, I see not truth in both. O my Lord God, I live by Thy Name. O my Master, show Thou mercy unto me. The God of Hindus dwells in the southern land and the God of Muslims has His seat in the west. Search thou in thy mind, yea, search thou in the heart of thy mind, for this alone is the only abode and seat of thy God." (Bhagat Kabir, Parbhati, pg. 1349)

"The Muslims praise the Islamic law and they read and reflect upon it. According to them the Lord's servants are only they, who fall in captivity (of orthodoxy of Islamic law) to see His sight. The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy God, when they see in many beauteous form. They bathe at holy places, make flower offerings and spread the perfume of eagle-wood before idols. The yogis that there are meditate on the Absolute Lord and name the Creator as Unseen....Like the above, depart after eating here, what they had. Have they thus done any good deeds?" (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 465)

"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. All and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)



You may stand and recite the Shaastras and the Vedas, O Siblings of Destiny, but these are just worldly actions. Filth cannot be washed away by hypocrisy, O Siblings of Destiny; the filth of corruption and sin is within you. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 635)

O Pandit, O religious scholar, your filth shall not be erased, even if you read the Vedas for four ages. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 647)

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible. The Supreme King of Nanak is immanent and manifest. ||4||3||105|| (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 397)

One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 747)


I have read all the Vedas, and yet the sense of separation in my mind still has not been removed; the five thieves of my house are not quieted, even for an instant. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 687)


The Pandits, the religious scholars, and the silent sages, reading and studying the Vedas, have grown weary. They do not even think of the Lord's Name; they do not dwell in the home of their own inner being. The Messenger of Death hovers over their heads; they are ruined by the deceit within themselves. ||7|| (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1277)

Vedas, Shastras, Simritis all say many things but I do not accept anyone of those. (Raam Avtaar, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

http://www.searchsik....com/hind8.html
http://www.searchsik...m/articles.html

http://www.searchsik....com/islam.html

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 08 November 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[JatherdarSahib]

Hindu views

The Hindu religion is naturally pluralistic. A well-known Rig Vedic hymn says that;

Quote

"Truth is One, though the sages know it variously." (Ékam sat vipra bahudā vadanti).[11]

Similarly, in the Bhagavad Gītā (4:11), God, manifesting as an incarnation, states that

Quote

"As people approach me, so I receive them. All paths lead to me" (ye yathā māṃ prapadyante tāṃs tathāiva bhajāmyaham mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ).

The Hindu religion has no theological difficulties in accepting degrees of truth in other religions. Hinduism emphasizes that everyone actually worships the same God, whether one knows it or not.[13]

Just as Hindus worshiping Ganesh is seen as valid by those worshiping Vishnu, so someone worshiping Jesus or Allah is accepted.

Many foreign deities become assimilated into Hinduism, and some Hindus may sometimes offer prayers to Jesus along with their traditional forms of God.


Over centuries hinduism was a mish-mash of many religions the puranas merged local faiths into vedism. Indra devta worship came alongside Shiva worship, on the side vishnu and brahma worship. Then importance of visnu avtars like Ram and krishna became the central ideas.

Vedism led to krishna conciousness, then later with the emergence of buddhism it came a challenge to hinduism it was merged into hinduism producing the upnishads we find buddhism in upnishads from India. Whereas these days hinduism stands with shakti marg chandi/durga/sherawali mata, kale mata, saraswati pooja alongside yagnas, havans, pandits (rings so forth), hanuman chalisa (from puranas), Shiva dedication and ganesh worship. Worship of Krishna and possibly Radha.

In persia we find buddhism being merged alongside zorostrainsm (also having vedic origin) into Sufism so alongside Islam where smaller ideas where already done by mohammad but post-muhammad done by philisophers, polymaths and aclaimmed sufis. We find the bigger interaction of hinduism and islam tackled by Rumi then India further by Bhagat Kabir.


Sikh view

So with Guru Nanak being born into a hindu family preaching to many hindus there is no hindu or no muslim people can accept. Where as from a sufi perspective islam says never insult the god or religion of another faith otherwise they will insult the quran and allah. Also sufis teach by reaching the egoless state you no long see religious differences however still encapsulated within common islamic principles. So we see the mutually exclusive nature of it as well it's ideological inclusive nature.

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 10 November 2011 - 11:29 PM.

[londondajatt]

Some questions;

Are they really religions, or more like traditions?

And do they have an equivalent go God, or is even the term God or equivalent used in their original scriptures?

[JatherdarSahib]

There is flexibility upon the follower of a religion to learn from outside the religion, through philisophy, through education, tv, media, people, word of mouth, magazines, radio so forth. One example a muslim is taught to hate non-believers however through interaction with all people literature so forth he can learn to love everyone or take the teachings of love in a different way. A sikh might commit heresy might decide to cut his hair or not wear a kirpan. A hindu might learn to eat beef, or he might learn not to worship statues. We are told the path is the one by guru nanak if other adopt certain few things from sikhi they are following the path. Observation, science grows our knowledge expans in another few thousand years some things we know today will expire and will not be valid. Much of the world and eras have changed. Pedophila is wrong now, polygamy is wrong. In some countries it is wrong to marry many women but okay to sleep with them, it is wrong to pay women for sex, but if you put a camera up and pay her and say it is porn it is okay. Just examples of change however guru rehat maryada remains throughout those all being wrong.

We learn in sikhi god doesnt really have a name and he is still the same inner calling from begining of time, perhaps some call him what the interactions or health of self to be now. Renamed but still the same thing.

[JatherdarSahib]

Sikhi documented the way of the mystics throughout the world all following the same path hidden and silent now in the open. The path was always the same beyond religious title however beyond religion is spirituality. The path and the science is in the spirtuality which in the science of the soul is different. Externally through politics is borders, there is no borders for nature a bird will still fly between pakistan and india for him the grain is the same on both sides it is only there for leaders, powers, however the nature, science is still the same. We are separate however in reality we are the same.

[londondajatt]

Religion leads to God, but where does dharam lead you, something even better?

[JatherdarSahib]

Ask yourself this what is god? Who is god? Who is your god? What does that mean? Where is (your) god? Why is (your) god? How is (your) god? When is (your) God?
Depending on how you answer those you will have a different answer for your question londonjatt

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 05 January 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[londondajatt]

JatherdarSahib, on 05 January 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Ask yourself this what is god? Who is god? Who is your god? What does that mean? Where is (your) god? Why is (your) god? How is (your) god? When is (your) God?
Depending on how you answer those you will have a different answer for your question londonjatt

God is some angry, vengeful being found in the Bible, who kills everyone who doesn't follow him. Also he is a him. Does that answer your questions?

God does not = Waheguru/Ram/Gobind/Hari/Vishnu/Mahakaal/Chandi/Bhagauti/Kalika/etc