22 replies to this topic

[dalsingh101]

Very interesting article on the Stephen Lawrence case

http://www.independe...sm-6284484.html

[HSD1]

I think the culture of the 3 Ds (dismiss, deny, derail) are still very much in force in England.

Look at the story of the Asian businessman tortured to death in Sunnigdale last year or the Sikh family who were killed and dumped in the sea a few years ago. Here's how the police almost let those whites get away with killing a 25 year old Sikh mother, her 2 children and an elderly Grandmother.

Edited by HSD1, 18 January 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[chatanga1]

i remember that case about the family killed at sea. Truly awful, and you wonder what kind of a person could kill a toddler and a baby.

Edited by chatanga1, 19 January 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[dalsingh101]

Whilst I know damn well that whitey likes to hide their dirt in a major way, truth be told, I think we have that thing going on in our own society too - especially along caste lines.

I think denial seems to be an inbuilt feature of societies in power over those who are not. It is very subtle but always at work, effecting people's behavior.

I mean look at how racism no longer gets talked about in the UK because the indigenous people go mental when you bring it up. This has a long precendent, like how a green eyed, married slave owner would have half caste green eyed children born to slave women on his plantation and his wife would pretend nothing unusual had happened, or blame the slave for being a temptress.

[SURYADEV]

Isn't the denial scenario similar to what we Sikhs and others are adept at?
Whether it is caste, child slaughter, sex discrimination etc.
If someone is found doing that and it becomes public knowledge we simply brush it off by stating they 'they are not real sikhs' or 'our holy book gives us equality and they are doing manmat' or 'its only a few misguided people'.
Ultimately, you can give it whatever title you want or cover it however you want to or justify it how you can, the reality is that it does happen.

[dalsingh101]

Denial is a very ugly thing and very difficult to challenge due to its very nature.

We deny we are in denial.....

hows about that!

[SURYADEV]

dalsingh101, on 21 January 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

We deny we are in denial.....

hows about that!

so true!

[SURYADEV]

taking this 'denial' thing further, philosophically.

I do believe that the very first step to achieving mukti is to admit and accept, ie the opposite of denial. Now as we can see, the world, inc Sikhs are avid practitioners of the art of 3D {dismiss, deny,derail}. If we as individuals and a kaum cannot accept and admit our shortcomings both material and spiritual then what is the possibility of ever attaining mukti.?
If denial is a measuring rod to see a persons/kaums avastha then good lord we have a loooong way to go!

[HSD1]

How many murders in England are due to caste?

What are you two on about? Slavery, child murder, sex exploitation all from a story about a black man hunted and killed on the streets of the capital city in the country we live in. Did you see how the whites in the police/media/government all lined up on TV to pat themselves on the back now that 2 of 5 murderers had been convicted almost 20 years after the murder? If anything it seemed that they wanted to prove that Britain had changed no matter how much the evidence shows the opposite. Which brings me to the point - our lot admit their bigotry. The casteist will say why he is a casteist, the child murderer will openly defend why she threw her daughters in a well, the discrimination along sexual lines is often described as being in line with Gurmat according to the patriarchs. English people never come close to admitting anything like that in their society let alone on an individual level. Sometimes I feel like we're in a real life version of Carry on Up the Khyber - at the slightest mention of something wrong with others we then go on some heart string pulling soul searching quasi mystical nonsense to put ourselves as equals to the others. Like how the Indian wives in that Carry On film felt the need to 'right the wrong' of their husband even though he hadnt done anything. If you've seen the film you'll understand.

[HSD1]

chatanga1, on 19 January 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

i remember that case about the family killed at sea. Truly awful, and you wonder what kind of a person could kill a toddler and a baby.

Supposedly the defence said they had been murdered by a mysterious Asian gang. Luckily the DNA and other evidence proved other wise, as we would have probably had loads in our own community who would have gone along with that defence. If a Punjabi had done this to a White family we would all be wringing and beating ourselves about it. What a waste of life.

Edited by HSD1, 22 January 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[SURYADEV]

HSD1, on 22 January 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

If a Punjabi had done this to a White family we would all be wringing and beating ourselves about it.

....and why do you think that is?

I'd say its because we Panjabis/Indians still have a 'collective concious'. We still have that group mentality, whereby if an individual member of the group makes a mistake we ALL feel responsible for allowing that mistake to occur. In western (Euro/American) 'individualistic' society this tends not to occur. Though we are also heading down that western route.
This is at least one positive about desi culture, and one that is noted by western society as well.

[HSD1]

SURYADEV, on 22 January 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

....and why do you think that is?

I'd say its because we Panjabis/Indians still have a 'collective concious'. We still have that group mentality, whereby if an individual member of the group makes a mistake we ALL feel responsible for allowing that mistake to occur. In western (Euro/American) 'individualistic' society this tends not to occur. Though we are also heading down that western route.
This is at least one positive about desi culture, and one that is noted by western society as well.

But it's a bit perverse though isnt it? If a mentally ill person kills someone, other mentally ill people dont feel the blame.

If a crime like that happens to white people, they like to exaggerate the race aspect of the guilty and our 'collective concious' feeds into it. It fuels it. It makes them feel justified. If we are the victims, why do we not expect the same group culpability that we do for others when we are guilty? Surely, in the name of equality, we should expect others to do as we do or we should do as they do. We cant handicap ourselves that we as a group are to blame for every little thing and go through the song and dance of acting like we have something to make up for.

Edited by HSD1, 22 January 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[chatanga1]

HSD1, whats wrong with having a collective conscious as a community?

[HSD1]

chatanga1, on 23 January 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

HSD1, whats wrong with having a collective conscious as a community?

Nothing. My point is that what is the point of a collective concious if you live in a society/community/nation that does not share in this belief? And what scenarios can one consider to be part of the collective concious and which are exempt? Can we and should we expect the same of others?

[chatanga1]

HSD1, on 23 January 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Nothing. My point is that what is the point of a collective concious if you live in a society/community/nation that does not share in this belief? And what scenarios can one consider to be part of the collective concious and which are exempt? Can we and should we expect the same of others?

Everynow and again, crimes happen which make the whole british people look at themselves and society, the horrific case of James Bulger, and Baby P, are recent ones. Even the white and black people, so do you think that collective conscious about certain things, ie murder of children, still may exist in one form or another?