30 replies to this topic

[kdsingh80]

Quote

Chimpanzees eat monkeys. Should we eat monkeys? I refute being related to monkeys and chimpanzees. There are some similar characteristics due to environment and habitat but that is not the case. Otherwise should we eat monkeys?

http://www.beyondveg...p-anat-2a.shtml

http://www.beyondveg...terview1e.shtml

Loads of other primates eat insects, we are well known to conteract problems.

There are humans who eat monkeys ,there are humans who eat insects it is all the matter of availability of food.No chimpanzee eat wheat ,rice or milk yet we humans do

[JatherdarSahib]

[SURYADEV]

Jathedar , is animal cruelty any different from the negative aspects of veggie farmming?
Eg the fertilisers, pesticides, growth drugs injected into plants foods (ie exploding melons in china/india), hormone useage in agriculture(dipping fruits into waxy-like substance to give it a gleaming shine), soil erosion due to intensive farming - just look at parts of the world turniing into desert because of this, hell even farmers getting diseased due to carelessness or ignorance of health and safety.
veggies Bringing up animal crulety vids, reports etc as a trump card just doesn't work.

[chatanga1]

Jatherdar Sahib, may be there was a reason why our Guru told us, only fools argue over flesh.

The video you have shown shows the lack of compassion in commercial farming, where everything is seen as money or not money. Sikhs are just as bad, with their lettting male buffaloes loose on the streets.

I am not vegetarian, but 1 am a supporter of compassion in farming, and that not appies only to animals reared for food, but also to insects and nature that are harmed by commercial farming thorugh the use of pesticides etc..

[JatherdarSahib]

Can someone verify the stuff on this website or debate it? http://www.sikhs.org/meat_au.htm

[JatherdarSahib]

I personally think guru sahib said only fools argue due to the nature of how pandits acted towards muslims who used to eat meat and muslims who acted against hindus who didn't and considered them to be inferior. Guru sahib in my opinon is not saying either veggeterianism is obivous or eating meat is... but the deeper meaning is tolerance, tolerance for those who eat meat and those who don't eat meat. Bhagati redeems either way, but Guru sahib tolerated everyone even the greatest of sinners who he redeemed. But in terms of guru rehat mayarda it would terrible if baba nand singh was right and terrible if the nihangs were right for the maryada for not sharing. We all agree to tolerate whoever does paap as we are paapis ourselves to do the nindya of someone who eats meat or who doesn't and to forget the humanity of the person. But Guru sahib path is as such we still look to find the truth inside of it if due to a lack of understanding in suraj prakash granth we don't know then we still to find out.

I would say the main thing with animal cruelty is we can see it more visibly and even the jeev and atma has made so much bhagati to get a higher janam we understand from rocks and minerals the jeev gets to the form of a plant. Guru Hargobind Sahib didn't want to step on flowers and damage jeevs. When we see animals with 5 indras like us having eyes, ears and nose we kill them. Could we ever kill our dog or cat. Some eat dogs tongues could we ever. Chicken farming came in 6000years ago we wipped out the dodo bird, cows were used for farming why bother eating them, then with goats and fish we look into it's meat but people used to drink goats milk. Fish we don't know about catching them gurbani says those who have soora fish and bhang will go to hell.

[SURYADEV]

What Chatanga said. its not about what you eat its how you go about obtaining that foodstuff.
Biologically/evolutionary wise, we eat whats available to us in our environment. Its all about surviving long enough to replicate/reproduce. If you live in extreme environs as many cultures do (deserts, arctic, jungles even you must eat what nature gives you at that place and time.
There a the mongal nomads who only eat 90% yaks milk and meat beacuase thats all they have. In their brief summers they may get some greens for a short time to supplament their diet. In jungles of SE Asia the tribes can only get their protein source from insects and reptiles. In Arctic regions those guys eat predominantly fat-based diet. In the one of the most malnourished parts of the world they eat articifial foods that contain minimal nutrients but have enough macro-nutrients to ward off hunger. Thats in the Amercia.
The poor guys eating grubs, animals and naturally grown plant foods have much better health than Europeans/Americans.

[chatanga1]

JatherdarSahib, on 09 February 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

but the deeper meaning is tolerance, tolerance for those who eat meat and those who don't eat meat.

That is the way to be if you want any kind of unity in the Panth. There are some things that Sikhs do that i think are weird, or summat, but the key is tolerance. One of the first things my Vidiya Guru taught me.

These days young Sikhs are just told this is right, this is wrong, then when they exposed to something new, they think this is against Gurmat.

[kdsingh80]

Quote

The video you have shown shows the lack of compassion in commercial farming, where everything is seen as money or not money. Sikhs are just as bad, with their lettting male buffaloes loose on the streets.

<sup>I disagree that if Sikhs let their male buffaloes or old cows loose on street then they are bad.It is plain economics nothing else.In today's overpopulated world their is no place for animals which are of no use to humans.Buffalo milk is 32-40 rupees per litre in retail market of India.If sikh farmers will feed their male or old buffaloes then to obtain the profit they have to sell milk at 50 rupees which of course nobody will purchase .So they all get ruined and their diaries will be shut.

Look at thousands of crores of Illegal cow smuggling business from India to mainly bangladesh .The cows are smuggled in most inhumane way to Bangladesh .Who is responsible for this? the so called vegetarians and cow protectors .These people want to drink milk but don't want cows to be slaughtered as a result Farmers,Diary owners sell or even throw their useless cattle as none of them can afford to take care of them.

In today's world anybody believe that we can drink milk or use animal products but killing animals is no no is living in fools paradise .They are just just pleasing their mind while turning their eyes from harsh truth .</sup>

[chatanga1]

Athiests use the same theme as Jathedar Sahib has used to promote their own thinking

ie look at how religions have made people hate and kill each other, there should be a ban on religions blah blah blah...

and post a similiar video like Jathedar Ji has posted, of people killing each other becasue then God will like them.

[JatherdarSahib]

‎'See, that the sugarcane is sheared. After cleansing and chopping off its plumes, its feet are bound to form it into bundles. Placing it in between the wooden rollers of the press, they crush and award it punishment. Extracting the juice, they put it in the cauldron and it groans as it burns. Even the empty crushed cane is collected and is burnt in the fire. Nanak, how the sweet leaved sugarcane is treated, come and see O people!' - Satguru Nanak


Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

Kabir, the mortals who eat bhang, fish (Banares Pundits used to eat fish at the time of Kabir) and drink wine, shall go to hell, whatever pilgramages, fastings, and daily devotion they may perform.


Translation by Macauliffe in The Sikh Religion-Vol-6, Page, 314-published 1909



Page 1350, Line 5
Ja▫o sabẖ mėh ek kẖuḏā▫e kahaṯ ha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫o murgī mārai. ||1||
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||
Devotee Kabir

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 11 February 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[JatherdarSahib]

"He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within."(Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 23)

"The tigers, hawks, kites and falcons, them the Lord causes to eat grass. Who eats grass, them He causes to eat meat. This way of life He can set agoing." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 144)

(Guru Nanak, Pg1289-1290 Guru Granth Sahib, Raga Malar)

Born out of flesh, in flesh does man live.
With life comes love of flesh, bones, skin, limbs
All are flesh.
As from flesh the living body issues, the breast that is flesh,
It grasps in mouth.
Of flesh is the mouth, of flesh the tongue,
Through flesh is breath drawn.
As is man grown up, matrimony he enters,
And brings home flesh.
Of flesh is born flesh,
With flesh are all relationships established.
By the touch of the holy Perceptor is the Divine Ordinance realized,
Whereby comes fulfilment.
Not by man's own effort comes liberation:
Saith Nanak: Such talk only to perdition leads. (1)

If the principle of impurity be admitted, then there is impurity everywhere.
In cow-dung and wood there are worms.
As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life.
In the first place there is life in water, by which, all are made green.
How can impurity be warded off? It falls on our own kitchen.
Nanak, impurity is not removed like this. It is washed away by Divine Knowledge.
The mind's impurity is avarice and the tongue's impurity falsehood.
The impurity of the eyes is to behold another's woman, another's wealth and beauty.
The impurity of the ears is to hear the slander of others with ears,
Nanak, mortal's soul goes bout to the city of death.
All impurity consists in doubt and attachment to duality.
Birth and death are subject to Lord's command and through His will mortal comes and goes.
Eating and drinking are pure, for the Lord has given sustenance to all.
Nanak, the Gurmukh who know the Lord, to them impurity sticks not."
(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 472)

AGGS, M 1, p 1290.[50]
—
First Mehl:
ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥

O Pandit, you do not know where did flesh originate! It is water where life originated and it is water that sustains all life. It is water that produces grains, sugarcane, cotton and all forms of life.

[JatherdarSahib]

Ikaṯ paṯar bẖar urkat kurkat ikaṯ paṯar bẖar pānī.
In one pot, they put a boiled chicken, and in the other pot, they put wine.

Ās pās pancẖ jogī▫ā baiṯẖe bīcẖ nakat ḏe rānī. ||1||
The five Yogis of the Tantric ritual sit there, and in their midst sits the noseless one, the shameless queen. ||1||

Naktī ko ṯẖangan bādā dūʼn.
The bell of the shameless queen, Maya, rings in both worlds.

Kinėh bibekī kātī ṯūʼn. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Some rare person of discriminating wisdom has cut off your nose. ||1||Pause||

Sagal māhi naktī kā vāsā sagal mār a▫uherī.
Within all dwells the noseless Maya, who kills all, and destroys them.
Bhagat Kabir

With the sugar cane thing I don't think it is literally sugar cane when bani uses the word mitha as of sweet it refers to spirtual sweetness to do with sweet actions, sweet words, the fruits and merits of meditation. I think it refers to how righteousness it treated in the world how in kaljug those as such will be mistreated for goodness and kindness. Also with mehla 1 it needs to be cross referenced with suraj prakash and janamsakhis to explain the nature and context of the bani. The time of Guru Nanak Dev ji and Bhagat Kabir and other gurus are different with time, place and context of argument. With the most of it I think we are being taught to be free thinkers.

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 11 February 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[JatherdarSahib]

[shaheediyan]

Just passing by.

Not here to argue meat - for or against, just wanted to clear up some 'facts'.

Irrelevant of what personal opinion on meat consumption (or any other subject) is, we should always strive to present facts honestly and in a balanced fashion:

"The closest cousin of Humans ,Chimpanzee hunt and eat meat".

Chimps are just 1 of 7 members of the great ape family, with humans at the apex. The Chimp/Human theory is just one of many (there are other explanations as to why genetics are similar), but there are other valid theories which show humans are actually more closely related to Gorillas, Orangutans and Bonobos. Orangs actually share many, many more physical similarities to man than Chimps. In any case, the chimps that actually hunt (they don't all hunt, only some populations), still prefer fruit as their favorite food, and eat leaves, roots, nuts, berries as the large part of their diet, only occassionally supplmenting with a hunt.

"Now today some are debating that the origin of various illnesses is to do with meat consumption which is against some of our function. Even carnivores seek fibre from certain plants themselves tigers have to eat grass for fibre."

To equate ourselves to Carnivores is stupidity. We are not Carnivores. The only possible exception in the human race would possibly be Inuits who live in the most extreme northern hemisphere and solely depend on meat (and don't forget that is their adopted home, it's not where humans evolved). At best (or worst depending on your angle) we are Omnivores, with more weight on the Herbivore side.

"Apart from Brahmins jains some Budhists and few other castes of Hindu's almost the entire world ate non veg food ,yet there is no evidence that these people were healthier or even stronger ,infact Indians are weakest in Athletic sports and more prone to various diseases"

In India, there are hundreds of Hindu Pehlvani/Kushti Akharai where vegetarianism is practiced. These guys are very strong, muscular, fit and their diet without meat is very high in nutrition and protein. Even the traditional Punjabi wrestlers didn't introduce meat (chicken/goat) into their diet until teenage years as per old traditions. For many years (when growing up) diet was beefed up with Bufallo milk, pure ghee and almonds. Let's not also forget the 2 groups who in my opinion are the most advanced fighters, super tough in mind and physically superior (without muscle bulk) in the world... the Shaolin Buddists and Wudang Daoists. Japan and the Golden Triangle also have famous tradiitons of ferocious warrior monks. Lastly, don't forget the near mythical 'Bodhi Dharma' was also a Buddist Monk. All these traditions believe in perfection of the self in this lifetime - this strictly includes not eating any flesh.

"Also through meat eating humans wiped out the dodo bird, which we replaced with chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus) which came from"

The Dodo was discovered by and exterminated to extinction by Dutch Sailors in less than 100 years in the 1500/1600s. Chickens were used in the west long before that, and the Dodo only ever existed in Mauritius.

"So what, so many species were gone extinct ,some by natural causes some by humans.Infact humans cutting down tree's and making farmlands is the biggest destroyer of eco system.so many carnivores were hunted down and made extinct by humans because they were dangerous to humans".

Maybe a few millenia ago, but far worse damage is being done today by clearing millions of hectares of rainforest to breed and graze cattle to feed the worlds growing appetite for burgers and steak. Add to this the many more millions of hectares cleared to grow cattle cereal crops to speed up their growth. The majority of South Americas environmental destruction is not for growing veg, but for supporting cattle. Let's not even mention water usage and the massive effect of green house gases (which is no longer a theory).

"the opposite can also be said that almost all vegetarian communitties became coward and they were unable to defend themselves.Jains were never known as warriors, Budhists and hindu's lost massively against muslims .also most of developed countries were meat eaters and most of them are now peaceful .Vegetarianism is recent phenomina in most of them"

Again, see my response re Hindu Pehvaans i.e. in Benares and the extant Daosit and Buddist Warrior Monk traditions. Most of the martial arts in China today were born in these 2 vegetarian traditions (except for the highly dangeous and secretive traditional Chinese combat wrestling, which predates the Buddist/Daoist faiths).

Ok, that's 10 minutes of my life mis-spent... have fun :-)

Edited by shaheediyan, 25 February 2012 - 08:26 AM.