43 replies to this topic

[JatherdarSahib]

As Zulu said:

any topics on here about the ramgarhia gurdwara history, anything to do with that? might be interesting to see what people know of it, or people who may have been there at the time when the first coined gurdwara of that name was done.


many thanks if someone does find a topic before I have a search



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by jassa singh ramgharia misl after they capture ramghar fort. Each misl had a so called understanding of sikh people understand that they descend from his misl. However ramgharia is used to describe people who were tarkhan - carpenters. Ramgharia means fort of ram (god). We have to go to the misl history. Then the migration to east africa majority tarkhans who called the gurdwaras ramgharia they migrated to europe and america taking the misl tradition. Generally some still hold onto the old tradition. some do prayer to baba vishkarma avtar of brahma to protect tools. proper singhs who claim descent from ramgharia misl will do ardas. So it is a means of respect of the decent. We need to look into the history of the misls how they were different and the same. Ramgharia bunga was made in harmandar sahib. However we have instances of misls intermarrying so gursikhs did marry. Some claim the misl was started by a sardar from jatt decent. Mahraja jassa singh altough descendent from carpenters was a gursikh and his ancestors made weapons for guru gobind singh ji. So the misl history itself is the start.

Some websites worth reading into this matter good old niddar's stuff some of it bogus worth checking http://www.sarbloh.i..._ramgharia.html

then:

http://www.sikh-hist...-ramgarhia.html
http://www.sikh-heri...ssa%20Singh.htm
http://www.ramgarhia.net/
http://www.thesikhmi...arhia_Misl.html
http://freepages.gen..._ramgharia.html
http://www.searchsik.../ramgharia.html
http://www.sikhsanga...t-a-caste-jaat/
http://www.info-sikh.com/PageMisl.html
http://www.rstbirmin...-ramgarhia.html
http://talwinder.blo...rkhanramgharia/
https://www.facebook...1843986?sk=info
http://books.google....%20misl&f=false
http://books.google....mgarhia&f=false

http://books.google....mgarhia&f=false
http://books.google....mgarhia&f=false

http://books.google....mgarhia&f=false

[chatanga1]

JatherdarSahib, on 07 February 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Some websites worth reading into this matter good old niddar's stuff some of it bogus worth checking http://www.sarbloh.i..._ramgharia.html

NNS has used this Ramgarhia thing as an example for his diversity in the Panth module. Its quite funny actually.

In Sikh Panth we have seen the domination of Jatt Sikhs, and in my reading of history and talking to some people of the non-jatt castes, I have come to observe that as Jatts beleive that they are the true Sikhs (which is laughable) and the other caste Sikhs are worthless, some castes have latched onto a contribution made by a fellow caste-member of yesteryear and created an awareness around it, symbolising their importance and contribution to the panth.

ie the tarkhans calling themselves Ramgarhias, because of Sardar Jassa Singh, and elevating him to Maharaja, which he was never known as.

the Kalal caste (wine-brewers) calling themselves as Ahluwalias, after Sultan Ul Quom Jassa SIngh Ahluwalia, who was born in village Ahlu, in Amritsar.

the chamars elevating Bhagat Ravidas to Guru Ravidas

the Nai's (hairdressers) who have elevated Bhagat Sain Ji to Guru Sain.


The tarkhans mainly, and other caste groups not wishin gto be dominated by thick jatts, just made their own gurdwaras, and called it Ramgarhia, which they mistakenly think their caste is. Ramgarhia misl had all castes in it, as did every misl.

Edited by chatanga1, 08 February 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[zulu]

Hanji that is right but, I was interested in the establishment of the 'Ramgarhia Gurdwara' if the first one was coined in India or somewhere in East Africa...

[chatanga1]

The first time the term " Ramgarhia sabha" was mooted, in my opinion was in East Africa. I have never read any where in punjabi history of any such movement starting.

What a lot of people dont know is that many Jatts went to africa as well to labour. I beleive is was there that the tarkhan dominance manifested itslef in this Ramgarhia Sabha thing.

What is really funny is how the tarkhans beleive that they are continuing the legacy of Ramgarhia misl. that is such a joke.

[Matheen]

Purely political - to have their own Gurudwarey to run. The election system always favours the majority, and politicians always find something to divide the electorate. In India, Tarkhans were effectively locked out of elected posts because of this and finding themselves in the majority in E. Africa led to the current situation. It is still virtually impossible for a Tarkhan in Nairobi (Kenya) to become a member of the 'bhappa' dominated Singh Sabha and vice-versa. The Jatts have control of a couple of Gurudwarey as well.

Sad state of affairs. The complete lack of Maryada in most Ramghariya Gurudwarey (infact all Gurudwarey in Kenya, even Singh Sabha and Nanaksar) is shocking. Langar is now a meal hosted by rich people for their friends, cooked by outside caterers, self service buffet style, wearing shoes, heads uncovered etc.

Going to take a revolution to sort things out, maybe with violence.

Note: in the UK, Tarkhans were again the minority and being unable to win elections, they made their own Gurudwarey.

Edited by Matheen, 11 February 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[JatherdarSahib]

You could argue Rajput equate themselves to Banda Singh Bahadur

Khatri elevate themselves to Guru sahibs
Jatts elevate themselves to Baba Budha ji and Baba Deep Singh


All of Sikhi is one..


In the UK Gurdwaras which call themselves Singh Sabha are majority Jatt dominated. As for Khatris and Afghani (aroras) which you class together as Bhappa are also separated before 1947 afghani singhs and pakistani singh khatri and arora were together however treat each other ethnically so differently. This caste business is nonsense and we should go to each other guru ghars after all they all belong to guru sahib every gurdwara is for everyone. The commitee is there only to pay the bills they don't own it. We should promote intermarriages with kids born in other countries they adopt that culture so forget the past really we should allow understanding to develop and not drag differences and the past into it. For the most part we are all pretty much the same. There is a world of difference with muslims, gora, kala who we get along with better then those of a different caste. I have seen people go on and on about caste then there kids marry out of religion, culture and ethnicity and they still go on and on about caste. We are a small minority in the world practically nearly non-existent we shouldn't talk about tribes and castes otherwise we will be wiped out.

Not all langar are cooked outside one thing to note is those gurdwaras were made in older times before central heating was made famous in colder climates when it really snowed and people got arthritis, other issues in which they couldn't sit on the floor. Even other so to say jatt gurdwara had tables and chairs. It was SGPC themselves who after seeing declared the rehat. With langar being brought in from outside is to do even with issues inside like kitchnes. Sometimes for weddings for ease of giving such they cater them even with timing issues. We have foil and other means to keep food warm for transportation so it is not a huge problem. The only issue might be utensil used but these are also used by what we call those who eat meat. There is generally a distance in kitchen to langar hall if they are not the same so have to be transported. It is all to do with the heat why people keep shoes on. The whole point of langar was equality, so even having people sat equally is as such. These days people sit on the floor in circles distancing from each other. In some gurdwaras we find people shouting at people, or not giving right portions. In some jatt majority gurdwaras they ask someones caste and family name, kicking out people of other castes this is a violation of rehat itself.

We had problems with some gurdwaras who had wedding halls attached under gurdwara property and name that served meat and alcohol as ragharia gurdwara the satkar commitee banned it. Remember from each ancestory we have had great gursikhs in the past and do today and will have in the future. We are all one big family guru gobind singh established one amrit for all we are a family have intermarried in many cases. Loads of jatts, ramgharia, bhappa, lohar, brahmin, khatri, arora, chumar, ravidassi are all inter-related we have inter married already many times. To cause problems amongst each other is to cause problems between our own families.

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 12 February 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[dalsingh101]

Quote

The tarkhans mainly, and other caste groups not wishin gto be dominated by thick jatts, just made their own gurdwaras, and called it Ramgarhia, which they mistakenly think their caste is. Ramgarhia misl had all castes in it, as did every misl.

I don't blame them (or anyone for that matter) for not wanting to be dominated myself. Plus when you talk to people who don't like Jatt domination, it isn't because they are just perceived to be thick or block headed, but rather because of obnoxious, supercilious, dismissive, exclusionary attitudes they experience. So it's no surprise people do their own thing. Instead of blaming people for this, why not point the finger at the real cause i.e. obnoxious and exclusionary attitudes by people hell bent on creating a caste system within Sikhi and placing themselves at the apex. This blatant ignoring of Sikhi's egalitarian streak is unforgivable and causes most of this crap imho.

Also I too think that the whole Ramgarhia gurdwara thing started in Africa, not India.

Edited by dalsingh101, 12 February 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[HSD1]

dalsingh101, on 12 February 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I don't blame them (or anyone for that matter) for not wanting to be dominated myself. Plus when you talk to people who don't like Jatt domination, it isn't because they are just perceived to be thick or block headed, but rather because of obnoxious, supercilious, dismissive, exclusionary attitudes they experience. So it's no surprise people do their own thing. Instead of blaming people for this, why not point the finger at the real cause i.e. obnoxious and exclusionary attitudes by people hell bent on creating a caste system within Sikhi and placing themselves at the apex. This blatant ignoring of Sikhi's egalitarian streak is unforgivable and causes most of this crap imho.

Also I too think that the whole Ramgarhia gurdwara thing started in Africa, not India.

But was that the case in East Africa before and after 1947? You cant base everything on your own personal anecdotes.

As for East Africa and Sikhs, I'll just leave this here:

http://www.federalis...L%20VERSION.pdf

[JatherdarSahib]

Check this article on Jatt culture

http://www.apnaorg.c...icles/sandhu-1/

[JatherdarSahib]

http://www.ramgarhiakom.com/nri.html

[dalsingh101]

HSD1, on 14 February 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

But was that the case in East Africa before and after 1947? You cant base everything on your own personal anecdotes.

As for East Africa and Sikhs, I'll just leave this here:

http://www.federalis...L%20VERSION.pdf

And you can't keep ignoring criticism just because it happens to point at your own community.

Will take that attachment home and read it.

[HSD1]

dalsingh101, on 15 February 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

And you can't keep ignoring criticism just because it happens to point at your own community.

Will take that attachment home and read it.

Lol, I'm not ignoring it old man. I just want you to be more thorough in your analysis and not resort to anecdotes.

Just look at all the posts in this thread. Why has no one brought up the issues that were going on in Punjabi Gurudwaras at the same time as Sikhs were emigrating to East Africa? Or how this was the first large scale building of Gurudwaras outside of South Asia since the collapse of the Sikh Empire i.e. the Sikh emigrants were being left to their own devices.

Or why the use of Ramgarhia? There were so many avenues the Sikh community could have branched along and numerous 'Tharkhans' that could have had Gurudwaras named after them. Why specifically Jassa Singh Ramgarhia? What was it about his life or deeds, or how he was perceived by Punjabis that made him popular?

Turn your brains on people, start asking questions.

Edited by HSD1, 15 February 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Or why the use of Ramgarhia? There were so many avenues the Sikh community could have branched along and numerous 'Tharkhans' that could have had Gurudwaras named after them. Why specifically Jassa Singh Ramgarhia? What was it about his life or deeds, or how he was perceived by Punjabis that made him popular?

Funny I was thinking something similar after reading Panth Prakash! Why has Jassa Singh Ramgarhia been lionised by Tarkhans more than Sukha Singh, who appears to have been a top ranked fighter/leader of his time?

[HSD1]

dalsingh101, on 15 February 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Funny I was thinking something similar after reading Panth Prakash! Why has Jassa Singh Ramgarhia been lionised by Tarkhans more than Sukha Singh, who appears to have been a top ranked fighter/leader of his time?

Did Nihangs have a bad rep amongst common Sikhs at that point? Was a Misldar more 'cool' than say a normal Akali? I'm surprised that back then people consider their hero's achievements along caste lines rather than religous or nationalist ones. Did other castes think of JSR as a tharkhan? What did SIkhs back then know of their recent history? Topics like this raise more questions than our lot have the answeres for lol.

[JatherdarSahib]

Well instead of blaming the tarkhans many of them said the jatts kept them out of marrying into there family posed them as inferior to them and didn't let them sit on comities. However biologically related to them and many have for generations only bred into there own and kept away from living we have brahmin mat going on in our people for some time.

From even Maharaja Ranjit singh like when we read about him the guy was illiterate I think he was compromised by brahmins putting these beliefs into sikhi and changing things around. I think Maharaja Ranjit Singh took favour more of brahmins over gianis, the gianis knew not to believe in caste but we learn they were also illiterate in several languages from trump. I think we had this problem from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time as there was infighting then. But jatts and tarkhans have intermarried still do and some are proud to be Sikh first.

Because tarkhans were denied sewa in guru ghars by jatts they went made there own and only sat there own people so the jatts or anyone else wouldn't do this. If anything this caste system mainly has been put into the sikhs mainly by jatts. When other people oppose it we find several jatts saying they are chumar or choora or less then them and they then go make there own gurdwaras and don't marry into them.

Again we find exceptions to it and some don't think like that but we have some who push this view more. And there are tarkhans who are therefore hostile to jatts and other castes. Even in some cases when jatts allow other people into positions of power, responsibility or leadership they are downgraded in several places forgetting the guys own merit.

Also today many have taken this view that Sikhi instead of destroying the caste system only taught tolerance and created diversity as we still find in gurbani various statements of castes in several instances just like the argument we find the names of Hindu gods and goddess so Sikhism allows polytheism this was taken forth by Sikhs who made aryan samaj. Singh Sabha movement now from it's jatt majority has messed about with the rehat that people had to make other jathas mainly like the darzis (tailors) who went into akj and so forth due to this infighting.

I think people have been unaware of Sukha Singh for some time... from other writings even from the nirmalas we have issues in writings we haven't translated suraj prakash yet. I think other castes didn't care much for Jassa Singh Ramgharia people twist things about. These days people who were not jatt have been called jatt we learn maharaja ranjit singh originally was a rajput however lablled a jatt and dogra rajas were labelled rajputs hence traitors. We find people pointing out the minas and massand were khatris forgetting the origins of the gurus hence more downgrading. We then have slandering to khatris as bhappa. The khatris around those regions were some of the most highly educated in Sikhi but put down. As for problems towards jatts was backwards hostility.

I think due to lack of media we had these problems. The main way to resolve this is by going to every gurdwara is nirmata so we can grow better relations. We are probably today much more better off then we were in the past. The problems back a few hundred years ago were more volatile. There was more volatileness in Misls times, something other people took advantage of.

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 15 February 2012 - 11:43 PM.