43 replies to this topic

[dalsingh101]

HSD1, on 17 February 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

That'll teach you to chat up old ladies you perv! lol jk.

Next time put a muzzle on your girlfriend before you let her out then!! lol jk!

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In situations like that its pointless getting hostile or morose about it. Just ask them if they ever worked on a farm lol.

I didn't get hostile or morose. I tried to school the fools where possible. The idiot at Gravesend really blew me away. After seeing my kara he goes: "Yeah, how you doing. You got a light?" Then "Your Sikh innit." "Yeah I'm Jat innit what caste are you?" I had to give that young arse fool some East London wisdom. lol

What killed it was he subsequently told me how he was being bullied and attacked by whites (in Belvedere I think?) and that was why he never wore a kara. Jerk.

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As for mention of the British I agree with most of it. But you have to bare in mind that the Sikhs were different back then too. We all live in PC la-la-land where we think we can turn up anywhere and get jobs and everyone should let each other get by. In the 19th century, Conquest and Colonisation were the norms. The Indian historians both like to big up how the Bengalis and Marathas fought the Mughals and 'won' their freedom. They dont explain how these same people were so easily humbled and annexed by the Whites. Look into how easily the Bengali Army lost or how the Maratha hordes couldnt even beat a few Portuguese idiots.Hell, even a few Sikh Misls loved carving the Marathas up.

I don't agree with you. Those Marathas had their strengths and successes. Look at Tipu Sultan as well. As for apnay at that point, one thing they actually did was the wonderful tactic of feigning loyalty and leaving the other side in the shite at the last minute (Afghan style). Then whitey came along and hordes of them actually became anally retentive with the loyalty.......you've read those letters in Omissi's book I posted! When you read the whole thing, most of teh soldiers are banging on about their caste like they had inferiority complexes and wanted to prove themselves to whitey. You didn't get any of that shit with the Pashtuns though!

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The Sikh Empire didnt fall so easily - it took the British a lot longer and forced them to bring every trick and resource they had to beat us. Punjab was one of the few Asian countries to escape being colonised for a long time (the others being Turkey, China, Korea, Japan and Thailand). Out of all the Asian countries the Sikhs were the only ones who were modern (in the Mid-19th Century) and could match any Western military.

What you are talking about is almost ENTIRELY down to the maneuvers of a single one eyed man.


This fact wasnt lost on the British. If we had beaten them on land and sea, Lahore would have been to the Indian Ocean what Rome once was to the Mediterranean Sea.


We are a landlocked people man. Get over this sea faring thing!

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The British used religous prophecies as well as control of our institutions to create a completely different race of Sikhs. Rather than caste reflecting some kind of academic strata or research, it was about breaking a people into their lowest denominator. You cant dress up what they did as being the result of some Victorian obsession with classification.

The obsession with classification isn't just Victorian it is a European thing! It is what defines 'westerness'. At that point in history to, whitey (by this I also include the French and Germans) were going mad with Indology, Egyptology etc. The whole subject of how their experiences and what they found in India kicked of a whole high level cultural debate that was to subsequently define 'westerness' or Europeaness or the Orient is a big one that our people were (are?) unwittingly slap bang in the middle of. For Brits (intellectually) our place was finally decided for them by a reputed brilliant German linguist (the infamous) Trumph. That is why, after he published his work claiming Sikhi was nothing original theologically, the west generally stop taking us seriously as a source of some new thought. Instead they patronised the largest peasant group (and not without reason because the whole Panjab agriculture thing had been a MASSIVE money maker in pre modern times). So it was a mixture of motivated classification. No doubt if our lot had remained obdurate and held out and whitey had successfully used poorbias to eventually suppress us (and if they remained loyal) we'd probably be the ones characterised as effeminate and they the 'martial race'. Think about that.

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In all their correspondence and scheming you can see that they took the Sikh threat seriously for the full century they ruled us. Until they breathed a sigh of relief at Partition because the Sikh problem had been solved for them. Over this decade we will see how Thatcher's government dealt with Sikhs during the Khalistan War, something which will further highlight how those with power try to subvert Sikhs using any tool they can think of.

If this is true then why do Sikhs affiliated to the modern day Singh Sabha incarnation crawl up the British establishments arse so easily? Pray do tell.

Edited by dalsingh101, 20 February 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[JatherdarSahib]

Every movement like 3ho and so forth have their issues. Right now I think Jatts are to blame for bringing this caste thing back in because of how persistent they bring it up it makes others bring it up and many castes from the hindu caste system were much superior at many times it's the alcohol speaking not the person. We have too many sharabis in our community who talk absolute nonsense about being superior. Tarkhans are guilty for it but the jatts brought it in first. Just like Muslims play partition making pakistan onto hindus and sikhs and don't take the blame that they were only following the haddiths to do what they did. As for the caste system backwas some people drinking too much liquor. Most the people claiming to be jatt aren't even jatt some are chumar chora shudras pretending to be superior. Bhangra industry has also allowed it to grow. We need to be slightly more up in our going to other gurdwaras.

Edited by JatherdarSahib, 20 February 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[dalsingh101]

chatanga1, on 18 February 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

He also calls jatts "jatt-boot" and he certainly isnt bgging up the jattas who worked against Khalsa Panth.

Yeah, he does big up Jatt Majails frequently, but as you noticed, he also straight out exposes the truth about the nonSikh Jat enemies. How does that square with those fools who like to go on like jatts are some super loyal 'pure Sikhs'???

Personally I think a lot of those antiSikh jats later joint the Khalsa when they got their arses kicked. We are still suffering from their nonSikh rubbish today.

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He also bigs up the MazhabisSinghs as well.

It's interesting to note, how he is compelled to explicitly point out the broad spectrum of castes in the panth of his own, and his forefathers time. How many Jatts do the very opposite to this today. These days we piss off and make Mazhabis walk off. How sad is that....

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Casteism starting appearing back in the panth around the time the mahants took over main gurdawras. they were the ones stopping the lowcastes coming in. the idea of jatt supremacy was fostered by the brits, not to mess up the panth directly, but to get more soldiers for their army. British army wale have written about how the Jatts made ideal soldiers.

One of things that made them this was their docility. It's mentioned by a few high ranking Brit soldiers. Example:

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Major-General George MacMunn (on Sikhs): As a fighting man his slow wit and dogged courage give him many of the characteristics of the British soldier at his best. (1911, 9-40)

There is much more like this. Jats don't like to mention that one of the characteristics of a so-called 'martial race' is political subservience or docility to authority.

In relation to the thread, notice Falcon's point on recruiting Sikh carpenters (he wrote a guidebook for recruiting Sikhs into the army that was published in 1896), and how they:

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'can rarely be persuaded to enlist on a sepoy's pay as an average carpenter can make Rs. 20 a month in his village'

So judging by this, they couldn't afford to hire carpenters due to low wages and farmers were more than willing to take that pay?

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uniforms make a man go nuts.

Only certain credulous, low IQ types in my opinion. Look at what kind of 'struggling with GCSEs' white boys that typically amke up the rank and file of the Brit army for example.


Whenever I have ever gone into ANY Ramgarhia Gurdwaras, I always see a preponderance of sharp, starched African paghs, so I do believe it came from Africa. My theory is that the skills required in Africa were not peasantry ones, but mostly artisan ones (like building railways, houses etc.) and hence a disproportionate amount of them there. Once there, as Matheen has suggested, they saw that they could come from under a numerically larger and actively dominant Jat strain and hence opened up their Gurdwaras. Their Gurdwaras were different from the Singh Sabha ones (i'm just hypothesising now) because they didn't have that military relationship with whitey like Jats did? Plus they didn't believe they were outsider Scythians, Aryans or whatever whitey was pushing, so they got on with other Indians better. There whole political worldview was (is) different from the Singh Sabhaists? I mean I recently attempted to read Max Muller's attempt at translating the Rig Veda (I don't think he knew what he was doing myself) and noticed that it had references to Vishkarma, who was apparently the Carpenter deity or something prior to their conversion to Sikhism. The veda is considered to be the oldest book in the world, and it comes from the good ole' Panjab, so if their is a link between Viskarma and Tarkhans, they appear to have been around in Punjab from a LONG time ago?

Edited by dalsingh101, 20 February 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[HSD1]

dalsingh101, on 20 February 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Next time put a muzzle on your girlfriend before you let her out then!! lol jk!

The one I borrowed off your Mum broke! haha!

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I didn't get hostile or morose. I tried to school the fools where possible. The idiot at Gravesend really blew me away. After seeing my kara he goes: "Yeah, how you doing. You got a light?" Then "Your Sikh innit." "Yeah I'm Jat innit what caste are you?" I had to give that young arse fool some East London wisdom. lol

What killed it was he subsequently told me how he was being bullied and attacked by whites (in Belvedere I think?) and that was why he never wore a kara. Jerk.

Did he tell you his name? One thing I've noticed is that wearing a Kara is like planting a flag. Everyone knows what you're about but you have no idea about them. Sometimes people tell me they are Sikh or HPs when they are blatantly Pakis or Gujis just because of my Kara. Having said that there are plenty of tobacco smoking Sikh gimps out there.

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I don't agree with you. Those Marathas had their strengths and successes. Look at Tipu Sultan as well. As for apnay at that point, one thing they actually did was the wonderful tactic of feigning loyalty and leaving the other side in the shite at the last minute (Afghan style). Then whitey came along and hordes of them actually became anally retentive with the loyalty.......you've read those letters in Omissi's book I posted! When you read the whole thing, most of teh soldiers are banging on about their caste like they had inferiority complexes and wanted to prove themselves to whitey. You didn't get any of that shit with the Pashtuns though!

Maratha successes were small considering their size and power. Superstition and backwardness always handicapped their ability to fight outsiders. When they employed large numbers of european mercenaries and switched to infantry based armies, only then did manage a stalemate with the Sikh Misls.

As for Tipu, his success was due in part to a well thought out partnership with the French. He had no Navy of his own so he allied himself with the French who sent their Navy into the Indian Ocean and allowed Tipu to concentrate on battering the British. He never managed to kick the British out of India. As soon as the British wore the French Navy down in a battle of attrition, Mysore's days were numbered.

It is interesting that the breakdown of nation states forced South Asians to revert to caste to give a sense of belonging. Unfortunately for them caste will never make up for nationalism so no wonder they had a chip on their shoulders when it came to comparing themselves with a bunch of islanders thousands of miles away.

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What you are talking about is almost ENTIRELY down to the maneuvers of a single one eyed man.

Well he needed Punjabi generals and scientists/engineers to achieve what he wanted. For everything Maharaja Ranjit Singh did, there is plenty he didnt do. So much so it probably deserves its own topic. There many other Singhs with brains back then. Even his son Nau Nihal Singh seemed to be more astute than his own father.

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We are a landlocked people man. Get over this sea faring thing!

Unless your a Sindhi Sikh lol. If the Sikhs were ever to beat the British they would have needed to beat them at sea or get someone to do it for them. Otherwise Sikh India would have faced the constant threat of an invasion from the sea. I'm not a big fan of 'What If' though. Probably a topic best discussed in another topic.

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The obsession with classification isn't just Victorian it is a European thing! It is what defines 'westerness'. At that point in history to, whitey (by this I also include the French and Germans) were going mad with Indology, Egyptology etc. The whole subject of how their experiences and what they found in India kicked of a whole high level cultural debate that was to subsequently define 'westerness' or Europeaness or the Orient is a big one that our people were (are?) unwittingly slap bang in the middle of. For Brits (intellectually) our place was finally decided for them by a reputed brilliant German linguist (the infamous) Trumph. That is why, after he published his work claiming Sikhi was nothing original theologically, the west generally stop taking us seriously as a source of some new thought. Instead they patronised the largest peasant group (and not without reason because the whole Panjab agriculture thing had been a MASSIVE money maker in pre modern times). So it was a mixture of motivated classification. No doubt if our lot had remained obdurate and held out and whitey had successfully used poorbias to eventually suppress us (and if they remained loyal) we'd probably be the ones characterised as effeminate and they the 'martial race'. Think about that.

The thing is that there is a massive line between science and science-ism. America is today's most advanced nation thanks to science. It also has religions like Scientology that freeload off miscontrued interpretations of scientific thought.

It was no different in the 19th century. On the one hand the Victorians pushed science, technology and engineering to new heights. On the other hand their achievements filtered down into other spheres of thought which tried to ape scientific methods without taking into account variables that cant be held constant. One example is race theory. At least that came back to bite them on the ass when Hitler read an anthropolgy book and spawned the Nazi movement. Interestingly, in Iran they believe the Aryans actually came out of South Asia rather than being invaders from Central Asia. But as the Iranians never ruled a quarter of the world and forced them to see things their way, only people taught in Iran believe this.

As for us being effeminate, the English have a saying - 'Fake it till you make it.' They acted hard when they had the guns and the ships but when others caught up they fell apart. Seeing as they hardly ever win wars by themselves its clear the English are some of the most effeminate around. Anyone else notice how a lot of English men look like English women but with their hair cut and a bit more facial hair? Weird isnt it?

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If this is true then why do Sikhs affiliated to the modern day Singh Sabha incarnation crawl up the British establishments arse so easily? Pray do tell.

Your making the assumption that a lot of Khalistanis in the UK actually want to go live in a free Sikh country rather than shout about it in Gurudwaras to make themselves look good.

You're also forgetting how well infiltrated the older generation are. They love the money. Whether its handing over other Sikh's names and addresses to India's intelligence services or getting recruits for the British Army they arent bothered. They all arent like that but enough are.

Anyway, like I said, in 2014 it will have been 30 years since Bluestar, roughly how long it takes for these kinds of files to be released. Should make interesting reading.

Edited by HSD1, 20 February 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[JatherdarSahib]

What about the brahmin sikhs and khatri sikhs

[dalsingh101]

JatherdarSahib, on 20 February 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

What about the brahmin sikhs and khatri sikhs

Inconsequential today due to their relatively tiny numbers. Especially in the diaspora. Khatris have smashed it by getting a man on the top seat in India, even though he may well be a puppet of sorts. It's still an achievement - though of course our peasants will have a lot to complain about (as per usual).

Edited by dalsingh101, 24 February 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[dalsingh101]

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The one I borrowed off your Mum broke! haha!

Motha f***er. There was me purposefully restraining myself from involving your momma, when I originally made that joke (and yes, that was the first person I thought of using but didn't because I thought it was going too low!!). Anyway, next time tell your moms to stop flirting when I'm buying my groceries at Sainsburys! lol Take that!

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Did he tell you his name? One thing I've noticed is that wearing a Kara is like planting a flag. Everyone knows what you're about but you have no idea about them. Sometimes people tell me they are Sikh or HPs when they are blatantly Pakis or Gujis just because of my Kara. Having said that there are plenty of tobacco smoking Sikh gimps out there.

So you are saying he might not have been an apna? There are hordes of them around those sides but again you just seem to side step the important issue of the way hordes of Jats do this weird thing of bringing their caste into any verbal exchanges at a breath taking speed. So these things don't happen then huh? What a dick.

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Maratha successes were small considering their size and power. Superstition and backwardness always handicapped their ability to fight outsiders. When they employed large numbers of european mercenaries and switched to infantry based armies, only then did manage a stalemate with the Sikh Misls.


As for Tipu, his success was due in part to a well thought out partnership with the French. He had no Navy of his own so he allied himself with the French who sent their Navy into the Indian Ocean and allowed Tipu to concentrate on battering the British. He never managed to kick the British out of India. As soon as the British wore the French Navy down in a battle of attrition, Mysore's days were numbered.

What's the point of slagging off other communities efforts? Use your loaf, anyone could as easily piss all over our own ancestors achievements just as easily in a similar vein.

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It is interesting that the breakdown of nation states forced South Asians to revert to caste to give a sense of belonging. Unfortunately for them caste will never make up for nationalism so no wonder they had a chip on their shoulders when it came to comparing themselves with a bunch of islanders thousands of miles away.

Thing is, the legacy of this is still alive and kicking amongst us. You can't see it because you can't/don't/wont read Panjabi literature, where you can see it spread. In anycase the definition by caste is worse for us because our own spiritual leaders have unequivocally told us to lay of that bullshit but we still willingly stoop to it. At least Hindus have the excuse of following their own precolonial traditions, what is ours? (try shouldering some responsibility about the matter as well, instead of your usual 'blame everyone but us' peasant tactic.

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Well he needed Punjabi generals and scientists/engineers to achieve what he wanted. For everything Maharaja Ranjit Singh did, there is plenty he didnt do. So much so it probably deserves its own topic. There many other Singhs with brains back then. Even his son Nau Nihal Singh seemed to be more astute than his own father.

Look, I don't think ANYONE foresaw the pervasive changes in the world that was to come about from the rapid development of technology. It's all well and good giving it a post hoc analysis, but you need to keep that strongly at the forefront of your mind when doing so.

You should bear in mind that it would have only taken a medium sized revolt in British India at the same time as the wasp wars to have seriously changed the situation.

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Unless your a Sindhi Sikh lol. If the Sikhs were ever to beat the British they would have needed to beat them at sea or get someone to do it for them. Otherwise Sikh India would have faced the constant threat of an invasion from the sea. I'm not a big fan of 'What If' though. Probably a topic best discussed in another topic.

Bollocks, their position was ALWAYS precarious, they just always got lucky and played the indigenous off one another.

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It was no different in the 19th century. On the one hand the Victorians pushed science, technology and engineering to new heights. On the other hand their achievements filtered down into other spheres of thought which tried to ape scientific methods without taking into account variables that cant be held constant. One example is race theory. At least that came back to bite them on the ass when Hitler read an anthropolgy book and spawned the Nazi movement. Interestingly, in Iran they believe the Aryans actually came out of South Asia rather than being invaders from Central Asia. But as the Iranians never ruled a quarter of the world and forced them to see things their way, only people taught in Iran believe this.

Again you are oblivious to the repercussions of this pseudo-science today. Especially amongst our peasantry.

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As for us being effeminate, the English have a saying - 'Fake it till you make it.' They acted hard when they had the guns and the ships but when others caught up they fell apart. Seeing as they hardly ever win wars by themselves its clear the English are some of the most effeminate around. Anyone else notice how a lot of English men look like English women but with their hair cut and a bit more facial hair? Weird isnt it?

Yes, when they grow their hair a gruff Panjabi gets confused and doesn't know whether to fight them or try and shag them .lol

Edited by dalsingh101, 24 February 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[dalsingh101]

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Your making the assumption that a lot of Khalistanis in the UK actually want to go live in a free Sikh country rather than shout about it in Gurudwaras to make themselves look good.

You're also forgetting how well infiltrated the older generation are. They love the money. Whether its handing over other Sikh's names and addresses to India's intelligence services or getting recruits for the British Army they arent bothered. They all arent like that but enough are.

Seems like a dead cause to me.

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Anyway, like I said, in 2014 it will have been 30 years since Bluestar, roughly how long it takes for these kinds of files to be released. Should make interesting reading.

I doubt there will be anything that would really surprise any of us with a brain. I'm sure most of the vocal k'stanis were plants or sell outs.

In that case I guess its actually quite nice to have those Ramgarhia Gurdwaras that didn't mire themselves with all the base activities during the militant period. Hell I remember how the guy before Sohi at Southall disappeared with all the Gurdwara funds (to buy a tank for the Khalistani movement apparently.........) leaving the Gurdwara in debt. Which was when Sohi came in.

[HSD1]

dalsingh101, on 24 February 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Inconsequential today due to their relatively tiny numbers. Especially in the diaspora. Khatris have smashed it by getting a man on the top seat in India, even though he may well be a puppet of sorts. It's still an achievement - though of course our peasants will have a lot to complain about (as per usual).

Yes, Manmohan Singh is a massive achievement. Not. Also its funny how Dalsingh refers to his beloved Hindustanis as 'our peasants', it seems to me that the tens of millions of Indians actually have genuine grievances with his government. But hey! He aint a rural kid so we'll just ignore it.

[HSD1]

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Motha f***er. There was me purposefully restraining myself from involving your momma, when I originally made that joke (and yes, that was the first person I thought of using but didn't because I thought it was going too low!!). Anyway, next time tell your moms to stop flirting when I'm buying my groceries at Sainsburys! lol Take that!

Stay classy, old boy.

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So you are saying he might not have been an apna? There are hordes of them around those sides but again you just seem to side step the important issue of the way hordes of Jats do this weird thing of bringing their caste into any verbal exchanges at a breath taking speed. So these things don't happen then huh? What a dick.

For someone who is supposed to be so intelligent and a 'thinker', it's staggering to believe you havent been able to ask yourself some questions that would probably get you to an answer. Why do people like that cling to caste rather than have another sense of belonging? Of course being Punjabi is difficult as it doesnt exist as a country and the Sikh community seeks to blame all its ills on 'Punjabiyat'. So why dont people like him consider themselves Sikhs first? Answer that question without copping out and you'll see the ugly truths that keep people unwilling to call themselves Sikh.

As for why you specifically seem to attract self confessed Jatts, I can hazard a guess. Maybe you look like a donkey. Or smell like cow pat. I have had Sikhs call themselves Jatt within a minute of meeting me but not on the same level as you.

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What's the point of slagging off other communities efforts? Use your loaf, anyone could as easily piss all over our own ancestors achievements just as easily in a similar vein.

They do. What I said is historically accurate.

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Thing is, the legacy of this is still alive and kicking amongst us. You can't see it because you can't/don't/wont read Panjabi literature, where you can see it spread. In anycase the definition by caste is worse for us because our own spiritual leaders have unequivocally told us to lay of that bullshit but we still willingly stoop to it. At least Hindus have the excuse of following their own precolonial traditions, what is ours? (try shouldering some responsibility about the matter as well, instead of your usual 'blame everyone but us' peasant tactic.

So how do these supposedly illiterate backward rustics get their info from if they dont read the supposed literature which was meant to reinforce the caste divide.

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Look, I don't think ANYONE foresaw the pervasive changes in the world that was to come about from the rapid development of technology. It's all well and good giving it a post hoc analysis, but you need to keep that strongly at the forefront of your mind when doing so.

If your talking about amongst the rank and file of the Khalsa or the Punjabi nation then yes your point is right. But Maharaja Ranjit Singh wasnt some yokel he was the Emperor of South Asia's strongest country. He had the information, but chose not to act on it. I wont go further as this thread is off topic as it is.

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You should bear in mind that it would have only taken a medium sized revolt in British India at the same time as the wasp wars to have seriously changed the situation.

Well it depends on whether the revolt was sympathetic or not to the Punjab.

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Bollocks, their position was ALWAYS precarious, they just always got lucky and played the indigenous off one another.

Your point is? How would that have prevented them from keeping a naval presence in the Indian Ocean? Even if the Sikhs had taken all of South Asia, how would we have dislodged the British from Sri Lanka and the other island chains in the Indian Ocean? Swam across? The Sikh Army couldnt even swim across a river when it needed to.

It is simple fact that if the British had a large naval presence in the Indian Ocean they could have used places like Sri Lanka as a staging ground for attacks into India or just blockaded all of South Asia.

[HSD1]

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Again you are oblivious to the repercussions of this pseudo-science today. Especially amongst our peasantry.

Yeah because that stuff is definitive reading to every Sikh.

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Seems like a dead cause to me.

Thanks for the input. Well thought out as usual.

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I doubt there will be anything that would really surprise any of us with a brain. I'm sure most of the vocal k'stanis were plants or sell outs.

If there is ever a Sikh version of the CIA you should be its director, your so good at figuring things out 30 odd years later.

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In that case I guess its actually quite nice to have those Ramgarhia Gurdwaras that didn't mire themselves with all the base activities during the militant period. Hell I remember how the guy before Sohi at Southall disappeared with all the Gurdwara funds (to buy a tank for the Khalistani movement apparently.........) leaving the Gurdwara in debt. Which was when Sohi came in.

Oh how fine and dandy it must be to be a Ramgarhia Gurudwara run by Congressis!

[chatanga1]

dalsingh101, on 24 February 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Hell I remember how the guy before Sohi at Southall disappeared with all the Gurdwara funds (to buy a tank for the Khalistani movement apparently.........) leaving the Gurdwara in debt. Which was when Sohi came in.

a lot of funds went missing, not just here but in india as well. the tank story is just ridiculous.

[dalsingh101]

chatanga1, on 27 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

a lot of funds went missing, not just here but in india as well. the tank story is just ridiculous.

That says a lot about the kind of people that associated themselves to the movement.

[dalsingh101]

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Oh how fine and dandy it must be to be a Ramgarhia Gurudwara run by Congressis!

Well, by the looks of things, the difference between many Singh Sabha and Ramgarhia Gurdwaras is that one is open/transparent about any connections with Congress/India (the two are not synonymous by the way), whilst a lot of the others, despite vocal, frothing at the mouth, angry farmer rhetoric about Khalistan - are secretly connected to Congressi instruments.

Which is worse??

Edited by dalsingh101, 09 March 2012 - 05:07 PM.