ooh-young-man!

The forum is good in that all allows the other picture of what islam is to be publicised. People are growing weary of being told the same old trash that Islam is a religion of peace. The forum allows people to make their own minds and not just rely on the glossy and rose tinted glasses view of Islam available on Muslim sites

The way I look at this issue is like this-; The Quran says that Mohammed is an example of what each Muslim should strive to be. Thefore it doesn't matter whether he married Ayesha because it was ok at that time or that he wanted to cement relations with his followers etc etc. The crux of this event is that a 60 odd year old man married a 6 year old girl and then consumated the marriage when she was 9 !. If the Quran simply said that Mohammed was a product of his age then the arguments that try to exonerate Mohammed could be said to have some truth to them. But the Quran says that he is someone to be emulated for all ages. If that is so how would we feel about a 60 year old man today marrying a 9 year old girl !. If the thought disgusts you as I am sure it would disgust every rational person then the Quran is wrong to say that Mohammed is a person who is to be emulated by Muslims. So the Quran is wrong.

“And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter†2:191 Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not†2:216 “Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.†4:89 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

Lalleshvariji I don't think your are right that Mahdeen is a word that Guru Gobind singh uses for Sunni Islam. If that were so then why would Guruji use the names krishan and Raam along with Mahdeen. Surely all the names shoudl belong to a similar category. You cannot have Guru Gobind Singh referring to Krishan as Krisha and Raam as Raam Chander but believe that Mahdeen doesn't mean Mohammed and means Sunni islam. Also there are other verses in Bachittar Natak where the words Mahdeen and deen are used in the same sentence to mean Mahdeen ( Mohammed's ) religion ( deen ). In my quote the line states that Mahdeen was created and died when his time came. How does this square with your theory that Mahdeen means Sunni islam ?, Has sunni islam came and gone ?. The past sense has been used, so Guru Gobind Singh was referring to Mohammed. Let the love shine through ohh-young-man!

Truth Paji, sorry I made the mistake of calling you panji in my previous post. My bad ! Please let's not get into the sarcastic name calling. I never said I have Brahm Gyan so please be so kind as not to put words in my mouth. Hardly an attitude I would expect from a site admin. Can I also ask that you consider changing your name Truth, I think it is very pretentious of you to go around with such an ID. I think someone mentioned to me that you used to be called Truth Singh but now you seem to have changed that from a limited meaning to an all encompassing meaning. I think that's not a very Gursikh name to take. May even affect your ego and we wouldn't want that would we 8) I think you are totally mistaken in thinking that criticism of other religions is a 'modern tradition'. I wish some people would try and do some research before they start posting incorrect statements which do not have any basis in Gurbani. Looks like something you picked up in a children's book on Sikhism. Today Sikhs are afraid to criticise other beliefs but we allow others to criticise Sikhism. We have made the Gurus into some sort of 'eastern holy men' in the tradition of Gandhi. We forget that the Gurus called a spade a spade. One only needs to look at how Gurbani calls 'idol worshippers' as Fools and deluded to understand that the Gurus did not fear antagonising people but cared more for the truth ( no pun intended on your name :shock: ) Truth what is your view on this verse from the Bachittar Natak Kae mait darai usarai banai upparai garhai fair maitai upai Kriya Kal kinu na pachhani ghanyo pai bihai hai ghanyo pai bihanai katai krisan sai KEET kotai banai kitai raam sai mait daarai upai mahdeen katai prithi maajh huai samai aapani aapani ant mooai (27) Apologies but I haven't got around to learning to use the gurbani fonts on this forum plus I'm posting from work. loosely translated You have created many and then destroyed them You give life, sustain it, destroy it and then recreate it All Time your creative process is known to no one Some are subject to it today and others when they existed Many WORMS like Krishna you created and as Ram were created and brought to an end Many like Mohammed came to this earth in their own time they came and went The word WORMS is Keet ( punjabi Keerha ). Dr. Gopal Singh in his translation in Thus Spake the Tenth Master uses the words 'little creatures' but in a footnote states 'literally Worms' As usual the Dasam Granth on the Gobind Sadan site totally ignores the word Keet. Says someone about Jaggi's scholarship that he needs to ignore Gurbani words to fit into the politcally correct culture of today. I see the politically correct attitude displayed by Truth is carried over in the gobind sadan site. Isn't this an insult to Gurbani that words are ignored ? Could you also comment on the following verse from Gurbani? I have posted a link to the Sri Granth site which will take you straight to the verse. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...jabi=t&id=21219 As we know Muslims recite the name of God when they slaughter an animal to make is halal. the following line in the verse is interesting abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa. The word Abhakia - which is Bhakia which in Braj means Language. The A prefix turns the word into it's opposite. So Abhakia means non-language or to be more precise 'unintelligible language' Language being something that is understood. Therefore is this verse describing the name of Allah as 'unintelligible language' ?. Also I think the word Kutha is taken from the Punjabi Kohna - or to torture. Does this mean that Guru Nanak is saying that the Muslim way of slaughtering animals is 'torture' ? You also cited "Don't call them false but contemplate", I assume you mean the verse by Bhagat Kabir ( not the Gurus as you wrongly attribute ! ). Someone wrote on another thread that each verse has a context and setting. You should look at what the context is that Bhagat Kabir recited this verse, you may be surprised at what the exact meaning is. Don't have nightmares Let the love shine through ! ooh-young-man!

truth panji you are wrong. Please read the verses again and you will know why. Guruji is saying that he rejects all the mat (opinion, beliefs ) contained in both the Vedas and Quran. You have completely bypassed the verse that Bibiji has so kindly taken the time and effort to post and then gone off at a tangent to the debate. You are right that Guruji is saying that Waheguru is our destination but you have totally ignored Guruji's views on the 'paths' that people use to get to Waheguru. The Vedas and the Quran have their own opinions about how to get to Waheguru but Guruji says he rejects all of them. If you reject the path shown by the Vedas and the path shown by the Quran then logic states that you also reject Islam and Hinduism. This then leaves the Guru's path ( Gurmat ). A path containing the Guru's mat. It is good to use logic in such situations. The impression I got from your first post was that you did not believe that the verse provided by Bibiji existed. When one of the other moderator pajis said it was right you then changed tack and said that she should read the whole verse. Just a murakhs opinion. Let the love shine through ! Jaspreet