Crystal

​You obviously missed my point here, not all are ready for change in the body/social circles/jobs - grow hair and take amrit right away- puratan way recognized and acknowledged this point and slowly with sehaj change the mindset of monaie by introducing them to deep profound gurmat adhyatam sikhi so their mind can be stronger more receptive to hidden spiritual reasons why kesh are kept and amrit is taken.
It's a same approach 3ho follow to this day and it works, they approach having long hair and amrit from spiritual angle than abhramic fear mongering type of parchar or cultish of parchar many parcharikhs follow ended up putting off lot of people from sikhi than joining them either that or these parcharikhs ended up creating a new box/yardstick for seekers - those who have long hair and take amrit will receive blessing from guru maharaj and fast express pass to sachkhand nothing works wonders for ego than well packaged advertised spiritual hope or promise..ego loves it as one does not have to do much this is number one reason for complacency in our panth where one gets to comfortable position in their life and have all these free time on their hands to judge, put down others, creating all kind of silly narratives follow 52 hakums of sikhi like commandments without any contextualization otherwise you go to hell.
 

The fact that singhs who is doing panj pyares seva from different jatha's, samparda's out in west cannot even sit together in langar hall have langar together let alone do vichar show the absolute travesty in our panth. I aint buying everything is fine and dandy here in our panth. From top to bottom if anything is consistently missing is - actual backbone fearless love for truth-sach and integrity.

Isn't this because we've tried to trap Sikhi in a box and not understood the real thing? Haven't we reduced Sikhi to grow hair and Amrit (sanskar)? or may be it's just the effect of Mind/Kaal because it is said in Bhagat Kabir's Anurag Sagar that whenever any Saint/Guru will come to earth for the betterment of mankind, then Kaal will try everything to derail that stream....
 

SGPC rigid interpretation definition of sikh does not help either..sikh is learner so by that definition they should declared everyone who has some faith in sikh dharma and our guru's is a sikh to have unity between all sikhs to include all then slowly gradually present teaching of transformation from part time sikh to full time gursikh/khalsa

​I guess their religious people are given too much flexiblity compared to ours. It really does not help when first thing our gyanis or parcharikhs say to grow hair, take amrit before even they talk about peace of mind, essence of sikhi, or even teach basic meditation too much segragation of monaie brothers by amritdharis.
I cite example how it wasn't like in puratan deras by citing mainstream example of our spiritual saint - sant isher singh ji rara sahib, sant jvala singh harkhowale, harkhowale branch of nirmale who used to give meditation techniques or spiritual discourses to seekers doing jaap of mool mantar/vichar-inquiry for year then take amrit..this helps remove conditioning help people taste sikhi on intimiate spiritual level after a year, people automatically drawn to grow hair take amrit instead of parcharikhs enforcing too grow hair, don't do this or that, too much rheotric, enforce amrit on people's throat. When you are presented too much rheotric not enough substance or experience people tend to put off by it all together.
 
 

1. Post 20th century the Singh Sabha mindset has hurt the 'Sikh' numbers by sidelining and ignoring the Sehajdharis and Nanakpanthis.
For example: There was  a time when nearly all non Muslim Sindhis were Nanakpanthis, but the radicalisation post Singh Sabha made them move away. Ofcourse many of them also venerated Jhule Lal besides Guru Nanak Ji but still.
Years ago I was also shocked at the 2001 census having only 20k Sikhs for Bihar, the birth place of Guru Gobind Singh. But since I have discovered that Bihar once had a quite significant population of Sikhs (Nanakpanthis), which withered due to our own neglect and partly the Udasi sadhus 'reverting' to Hinduism post SGPC to prevent their Dharamshalas from getting under SGPC control.
Even today some indigenous Sikhs of Bihar can be found near Lakhmipur and other areas visited by Guru Tegh Bahadur.
2. I also used to believe that most Sikhs inhabiting foreign countries were of Punjabi descent, but I think a critical reading of the Janamsakhis is needed to ascertain this. The person who gave the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a native Assami King, his ancestors having converted at the times of Guru Nanak.  The Raja Shivnabh of Sri Lanka also converted. More than a hundred Nanakpanthi native Arab families existed in 1930, Sikh since Guru Nanaks times (source: Mushtaq Hussain alias Prithpal Singh). Remember Salas Rai Johri the jeweller? His descendants are Nanakpanthis but in dire need of parchaar just like many other tribes and people but our SGPC is doing nothing, in a few generations they will also be back to Hinduism. Bihar used to have above 300 Dharamshalas, all with native Bihari Sikhs, such as Bhai Bhagwan during Guru Har Rais time (ex Buddhist).
While one may not take this statement too seriously but the Dabistan also talks of Sikhs living in most corners of the world. But you could argue that it talked of Punjabi Sikhs, which I doubt but fair enough.
3. So from the above we can assume that lots of non Punjabi Sikhs used to exist. But where did they all go?
a) reverted back over generations due to lack of parchaar, just as we are seeing right now with Johris.
b) many of them were not in Khalsa form and thus were neglected
 
4. We did not forcibly convert others. While forcing is the un Sikh way, I wish more was done to convert non Sikhs during the Misl and Ranjit Singh Kaal, but sadly we are too secular... We are even butt hurt at ex Sikh Christians returning back to Sikhi to avoid political disturbances in Punjab. This explains why we are only 10-20% of the total Punjabi population.
5. Indian census is not reliable, they do not count poor tribal Sikhs as Sikhs, who are atleast 2-3 million in number. Search for Sikligar, Vanjara, Lobana, Johri, etc.
 
 

People who boast of their caste, actually don't have much, to be proud of. They hide behind these caste names to inflate their ego. On a related issue, in Guru Ghar all people should be motivated on this path, calling out Non-amrit ones isn't helping anyone. Beginners should be encouraged. Be the bridge between your fellow person and god, don't burn it. 

​Jatts and Tarkhans, belong to the so-called lowest caste, Shudars.
Bhul chuk maaf

Real talk jaikaara. I know plently of high castes so called jatts and tharkhans who find it funny to make fun of chooreh chumar. However they happily talk and eat with khans and other sulleh but with a choora no way would they sit and eat with them.
Jatts and tharkhans arent even high cazte...they are the same level.
 
Crystal

Easy on dalsingh, had to Google what pertinent means. 
 
Crystal

Real talk jaikaara. I know plently of high castes so called jatts and tharkhans who find it funny to make fun of chooreh chumar. However they happily talk and eat with khans and other sulleh but with a choora no way would they sit and eat with them.
Jatts and tharkhans arent even high cazte...they are the same level.
 
Crystal

​Well don't leave us hanging, finish the story. What is your caste?

Lol Im pulling your leg.

Now we know the problems associated with caste. We all get it.

However you also have to understand that in puratan times caste was your tribe/dynasty, mark of your ancestors and your profession, and thus it was your identity. When that dude said, "what is your caste", if he was born a thousand years ago, would translate to "who are you? who are your ancestors? and what do you do?"

But that longer works because tribes have scattered, people have become ignorant of their ancestors and professions have changed and are in flux.

I believe we are lucky to have the ability to see, i think this is great. Respect to the guy who came up with this idea. http://www.bemyeyes.org
 
Crystal

I am a monna/sehajdhari and am strongly against caste hierarchy....i have high regards for dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar...i am more comfortable with my dalit brothers than others from the so called higher castes ..i cant figure out what difference does it make in my perspective towards caste whether i am monna or a singh.
I have seen more castieist attitude amongst Singhss who talk big ...will give respect to a khan than to a mazhbi.

Please stick to the topic guys, and avoid personal attacks. We as collective sikhawareness community are way better than that :)

The other day I went to the guru ghar to do some seva. I was cutting up veg(as chefs do) and this freshie joined me. We got talking while doing langhar seva and he said tera caste ki. Quite frankly I was shocked, never have I been asked in the guru ghar what caste I belong to. I assumed he was a jatt, turns out I was right. 
 
It got me thinking though are our people that fixTed on caste? Why does it matter so much to some people?
 
Crystal

Why can't a mona be classified as a Sikh?

seems extremely doubtful. with enemies on all sides people tend to forget internal divisions. those things creep back in later, after the dust has settled (during maharaja ranjit singh's raj for example). Such an insanely harsh "punishment" for another sikh, during a time of war and uncertainty, when both high and low have to share food out in the field (during campaigns) anyway??? a fake sakhi imo.

Easy on dalsingh, had to Google what pertinent means. 
 
Crystal

​Mega lol  atleast its easier understood vacabulory than tisarapanth website.. God Lord that website puts Queens English to shame.. LoL

​
I think your point is extremely pertinent to the subject. If we had some other issue due to hormonal imbalances (like thyroids, infertility) or any naturally occurring biological condition (remember cell mutations are a norm in nature), how far should we go with the 'it's God's decision' argument?

I believe we are lucky to have the ability to see, i think this is great. Respect to the guy who came up with this idea. http://www.bemyeyes.org
 
Crystal

I believe we are lucky to have the ability to see, i think this is great. Respect to the guy who came up with this idea. http://www.bemyeyes.org
 
Crystal

well... my question really is... ''If you were out with your wife and waiting outside as your wife has just gone into a public washroom.....then a few seconds later your saw this bearded harnaam kaur enter .. and not knowing if she is a woman or not.....I'm sure you would be concerned!
I've got nothing to say on this attention seeker of a person who is clearly using sikhi as a secondary basis for excuses and acceptance.........I believe she became Sikh after she had spent years of using hair removal products...She chose to become a Sikh and parade herself.. giving the impression she is abiding by Sikh rehat...... Then, I'm sure, she has broken her amrit and gone and done tattoos and shit.....so lets not give her anymore attention.
 

Good morning DS,
One persons heer could be another's person nightmare.
Saying that I have to profess that she really does look like a transgender male( & not a pretty one).
We have many closet homosexuals in the panth, thats not a problem the problem id the peados and the gay molestors. what I am worried about are the ones who have access to kids ie tabla classes, Punjabi classesclasses.
 
Reading the article and looking at her picture I come to the conclusion she is confused. If she really felt strongly about not changing her appearance ie the beard who is she kidding that the tats and piercings etc is allowed?
Two rupees.
 
Crystal