CdnSikhGirl

My final words on this topic: I am female and I am tying a turban and nobody will stop me. I dont care if someone think I am a transexual. I am not. My husband specifically wanted a turban wearing Singhni and he the most amazing person ever. He wanted a spiritual partner and not a model. There is nothing in any rehet maryada saying women can not. And in fact there is evidence pointing to the fact that women *should* tie one. Not mandatory, but its suggested in several rhetnamas with the wording *should* in reference to women tying one. I chose to follow that *should* and so I do. If another girl chooses not to, that is her choice. Most don't. I understand their decision. Majority of them want hairstyles, and to be able to dress up and look pretty. For myself, I am not drawn to makeup, or lots of jewelry (I do wear a necklace once in awhile). And I want to keep my kesh protected which I don't cut because I am Amritdhari. I also like that I can move around freely without worrying about a chunni falling off. At home I use those expandable bandanas that cover your whole top of your head. But in public I always have turban on for the last 2 full years now. I don't ever intend to stop.

Physical protection does not require obedience. How often does a situation arise where your life would actually need to be protected? Don't you think that maybe some seld defence classes will help too? What about the rest of 99% of the time? I am talking decisions like what car to buy, how to spend finances on home etc. DO we need a new TV, etc. There is no reason that the husband should have final say on everything and the wife has to obey. We are talking about normal every day life. Forget about life threatening situations for a moment. I am talking about those husbands who demand their morning coffee, demand their supper and wont help. Demand the wife do all the baby diaper changes etc. And they both could have worked all day at jobs too. But the in the evening the husband will come home sit on his butt watching tv while the wife has to work even more to meet his demands. Yes she might do it all out of love while he gets to rest and she doesn't. But is it fair? Also yes I hope I can depend on my husband, but I also hope he feels he can depend on me (and not for domestic stuff LOL he KNOWS I am not good with domestic stuff actually he cooks good and likes to cook, and I hate it so we have an understanding).

@delibeli Actually no my husband and his whole family believe in equality. My husband and I are actually so well tuned that we practically finish each other sentences. He actually works with women empowerment and he actively fights for equal rights of women including in Sikhi. I am very fortunate he is my husband!! He is an amazing person. Some of the guys on here would think that because he doesn't order me around, that somehow I am using my husband as a doormat. I am not. Full equality of husband and wife are totally possible! I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that rather than one of us dying for the other in a fight, we'd rather fight side by side and die together. THATS how close we are. I can't explain it. We have a spiritual connection that is beyond words. Exactly you hit the nail on the head. Marriage is about LOVE and CARE for EACH OTHER. It's not about who is in charge and barking orders. Also I never understood this idea that in a partnership of only two that one person always has to lead and the other always has to follow. It can work when both are leaders. They will divert to each other and lead together. Butting heads will only ever happen if husband and wife are so out of tune with each other that they can't agree on something. If they love each other they will compromise. Maybe one time he will and the next time she will. More often than not, they will both prefer to give the other what they want and then the issue is not that each wants their own way but that each wants the other to! LOL. Yes this has happened. Small story: At a restaurant, Chinese. I wanted springrolls. He was trying to get me to select something less greasy and more healthy he had something he wanted to order. But I had not eaten much the few days prior and spring rolls really sounded good. I didn't know what else to order so I told him to pick something then because I really didn't know what else I wanted. Know what happened? We got the springrolls AND what he was wanting. LOL And we both enjoyed both! hahaha

I believe in getting out in the community and doing volunteer work, and I used to volunteer as a medical first responder at local events. It was a great way to interact with the public when they are at their worst, and I got to patch them up, comfort them while they puked, in some cases even administering oxygen and CPR. Now I am shifting my focus to other directions. I have applied to be member on Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission. I currently serve on the MARLANT Defence Visible Minority Advisory Group in the Navy. But I want to start a project in India, that will help a lot of people. Community first response program where we train local volunteers to advanced first aid level and they take turns with the pager. They would be dispatched at same time as ambulance only they would usually be first on scene. As we know ambulances take some time to arrive in India to the patient. There would be a community kit with basic life support level (can deal with anything from severe bleeds to broken bones) and some airways (NPA/OPA but not intubation) Oxygen and an AED. I have 3 separate doctors from India on board with the idea and want to trial a small area (rural) first. I need to know if anyone has any experience in how to start organizing it. I can probably work on having one full kit donated by St John Ambulance. But to get it nationally funding will have to come from other means. But for a trial getting kit wont be an issue. But I need to know about NGOs how to register, and any legal issues. UK has the system fully running and is a good model. Also in near future will be involved with NGO my husband runs which empowers women. It involves handicrafts and export. Just wondering what types of seva (outside of the gurdwara) you all do?

Nobody on here has been attacked more than I have! I have been called transexual fat, ugly, 'thing' for tying a turban. Not by one person but by two now! I have been called liar because I pointed out to the forum how chatanga tried to get me to leave the forum in a PM, I have been called nindak, guru nindak, etc because I questioned charitars, chatanga has now even lied about me saying the gurus were false which I never did (as someone earlier pointed out). I have been called heretic ( again because I questioned the charitropakhian) and recently I have been called utterly disgusting because I believe our Gurus spoke out against menstruation being a mark of impurity or uncleanliness by our Gurus (in Gurbani) and that seva should be able to be done by anyone at any time as long as their heart / mind are pure. Show me anyone who has been called any worse on this entire forum! But any time I try to defend myself against any of it, its like everyone sees what they want and have blinders to what I was subjected to! Except @Koi thanks so much for saying something in that thread about turbans. I really appreciated it! Even worse a few members from my local sangat have been on here recently and have been seeing it. They keep telling me why do I keep coming here?

You might think it only affects one Singhni at only a few days at a time. I have been told by a Taksali Singh who says the reason women can't do kirtan at Darbar Sahib at all, has to do with periods. Imagine you have a female ragi jatha. And they have been approved to do kirtan there. Now three different women, who would most likely have periods at three different times of the month. And now, as a ragi jatha, they are put on rotation to perform there. Once a jatha is on rotation, they are expected to perform. Now one of the SInghnis has her period, oopps now they can't perform? So another jatha covers for them and few days later they come back, now the next week Singhni #2 has her period. Oopps they can't perform again? You see what I am getting at. For that reason, no women are allowed to ever perform kirtan there. It no longer affects one Singhni for a few days a month. It affects all women being disallowed to do kirtan there ever. So in our most holy place, and most well known place around the world, we will never hear the voice of female ragi jatha. And the world (those outside Sikhi) start to think that women must be treated lower. Similar to Granthi position. A Granthi job is full time. I smaller gurdwaras there may be only one Granthi. They are expected to do this seva without having to have someone stand in for them for several days each month. What this means is that none of these gurdwaras will ever have female granthis because they dont want to have to have someone stand in for the granthi on regular basis. And man will be seen as better because he wont have to take time off. Now we have women barred from granthi and kirtan. Next up, akhand paaths. Next you will say that women can't be on a pothi list for akhand paaths because hey what happens if an akhand paath happens and she is bleeding? You are systemically barring women from all visible roles in Sikhi with this thinking. I posted before an internal protection for periods. Its worn completely inside, is 100% leakproof, made of silicone so nothing can leak through. It basically holds the blood still inside until its removed. It can be worn for 12 hours straight. There is no need for external pads or diapers etc. She can place it, wash up and its like she is not bleeding at all. Hygiene wise she is perfectly clean. This is the difference between menstruation and incontinence, where you cant wear any internal protection. While women have several internal means to stop the bleeding temporarily. You guys keep saying its unclean. What I find really disturbing is that if you think its so unclean hygienically speaking, then why is langar not the seva that is being attacked? Certainly any hygiene issues would be more important when preparing food, than sitting on tabiya? But nowhere have I seen anyone say women are barred from making langar while on their periods. For that matter if there is a hygiene issue maybe they shouldnt even be in the gurdwara at all? Oh and one last way it affects all women. If a woman lives alone you will say she can't have saroop of SGGSJ at her home because she won't be able to do seva of SGGSJ or sit on tabiya even then? By the way I addressed the exact question to SGPC last year and they said there is no restriction. Its up to the women if they want to or not. If they feel up to it then there is nothing saying they cant. Its not even something men should be commenting on.

I am sorry I have to agree with the guest. I would feel like a door mat too. I have desires, wants, opinions, and furthermore I have leadership qualities, and skills that should not simply be swept aside in a relationship as being unimportant. I believe the reference was to my bringing up the idea of obedience. Obedience means more than just following. It means giving up your own will completely so that someone else can follow their opinions, their desires, their wants, etc. Why should a wife have to be the one to give up her own identity, and everything she brings to the table so that the husband can stroke his ego and feel like he is in charge? Why does anyone have to be in charge at all? My husband and I make decisions together, sometimes he leads sometimes I do. He doesn't feel like his manhood is in jeopardy if I make a decision! Similarly I dont mind him making half the decisions because I know he values when I do. We both follow each other, we both lead each other. I would suffocate if I was forced into following all the time. Actually I'd feel downright oppressed. What if I did not agree with what he wants to do? What if I STRONGLY disagree with something he wants to do? You will say I as the wife have to just grin and bear it and let him lead. But lets turn the tables, if it were fair then when I want something you would think that even if he feels strongly against it, he would not stop me. But noooooo you are saying even then it's me who should give up my will so he can his way all the time. That is not fair. Fair enough I agree there are some women who like playing the submissive. (some go as far as wearing a collar even to denote they are owned by their husband). There are men who also wish to play the submissive role too and be told what to do and how to do it. But majority of adults wish to keep their ability to exercise their own right over their life and liberty themselves. In your model, it sounds like women in the past just gave up their freedom and ability to make decisions for themselves, in exchange for protection from wild animals etc. We don't need that model anymore as we no longer live in caves. I know you think I would shun all leadership from my husband but nope. Mostly I will do whatever he asks because I LOVE HIM. Not because I feel obligated as a female to obey. But I ALWAYS reserve the right to refuse something I really just don't want to do. In return, I expect that if I ask him to do something, he will also do it because HE LOVES ME. And any and all decisions affecting both of us we talk them out together and we are so in tune that neither one has to lead. We are in agreement in vast majority of things. If we ever reach an impasse we have agreed to walk away first , come back and discuss later with clear minds, and if that fails and it's a major decision , then we have someone mediate as a third party. In fact we both decided flipping a coin in a deadlock would be better than one person always getting veto power. When you have a relationship where one person always has veto power and authority over the other, that other person has no power at all. It may have been endured in the past but was not ideal.

Actually @GurpreetKaur All humans start out in the womb as female. Its only through bathing in testosterone, that one is turned into a male. In fact, when people do sex changes, the key factor is testosterone. Suppress testosterone in men, and feminine qualities emerge. Add it to a woman, and masculine properties emerge. Aside from the actual sex organs, you can turn a female into a male and vice versa by playing with testosterone. And that includes the chemical changes in the brain. Women given testosterone become more aggressive, more competitive have more energy for working out and can gain muscle mass much easier. When testosterone is suppressed in males, it makes them less aggressive, less prone to competitiveness etc. We are more alike than some want to think. Even the reproductive organs are created from similar parts. The penis is analogous to the clitoris, testes to the ovaries, vulva to the scrotum etc. Males have nipples, why would they have nipples if they never had to nurse a baby? Even more interesting is that men can be made to lactate! And it doesn't take much! A man was stranded with his infant and the mother had died, he had no food but to soothe the infant he let it suckle. After a few days he actually started to produce milk. This was an actual recorded true story! There should be no competition. Most women I know are not even keen on fighting. It's the men who are the ones who want to place restrictions on us. The women usually just want to keep the peace and can't be arsed to do anything about it. But it hurts even if they dont say so. It hurts to be called inferior, it hurts to be told you cant do something because you are only a woman. In our religion especially, all positions should be available to everyone and based purely on merit and avastha and not gender (or any other reason like money, power etc). And @BhagatSingh Ji, it really really hurt when you said husbands need wives to 'obey'. That means you think women should not have freedom of choice over their own existence, but their husbands should. If you don't also say that the husband should also obey the wife, then you are condemning a hierarchy where the woman is put in an inferior position. To be told you should be in an inferior position simply because of what gender you are (something you had no control over) hurts. Alot. You don't know how many times I cursed myself for being female. Or how many times I prayed to Waheguru and asked why was I made female. I even contemplated (for only a moment, no I wouldn't do anything stupid) what it would be like to end it so I could be reborn male. This position of being seen as the one who should obey instead of lead, to be seen as lesser. To be told you can only do certain seva because you are female, to be told you are utterly disgusting because of biological functions given by Waheguru, it all hurts. And yes its really really difficult to not say anything. I dont think you can ever understand how crappy it is to be female. I wish even for one day I could have the respect that men get!

There is only ONE doer. That doer is Akal Purakh. If we think we are the doer we are very wrong. From Ang 736 (Paraphrased) the director stages the play and plays the parts of all the characters. But when the play is over and he removes the costumes, we see there is only ONE. Where have all those many forms come from and where did they go? This play (this reality) is staged by the same one who is playing all the parts of all the characters (us). But when the play is over (this reality ends) and he removes those costumes, we see there is only ONE. That ONE is Waheguru. Ego identities are false. There only ever was ONE.

Also it seems to me you are setting me up for failure... If I don't say anything at all about women having lesser rights in Sikhi, it means I resign myself to accepting it. By not saying anything, nothing will ever be changed for the positive. However if I DO say something in hopes of change, I am labeled a feminist, and a man hater and then on anything I say about men is taken as nindiya. When its not! So you are in fact trying to encourage just accepting the lower position we have as women and not saying anything about it, because if I do I will be labelled as doing nindiya. It seems quite unfair doesn't it? And set up for males to always win. If I say anything I am labelled as doing nindiya and if I dont say anything people will think I approve of myself being lower than males. It's a no win situation.

But I am not a feminist! Feminists strive to put men in disadvantage! I don't. I only want to see parity. Equal opportunity especially in our own religion! I do not hate men. You calling me feminist is nindiya! A feminist would look to put men in lower position, like the opposite of what is happening to women. However I don't want to take anything away from men, I just want to have the same opportunities as them and not be seen as inferior. The difference is that male chauvenists seek to keep women in a lower position with less rights and opportunities. Humanists (which is what I am) look to have equal opportunities and rights Feminists seek to put men in the lower position with less rights and opportunities (or consider women's rights to the detriment of what men have now) Because you subscribe to male superiority, I have not called you a chauvenist have I? I have only approached it from the side of the women point of view saying that its unfair to make women have to 'obey' men and have less rights. That does not mean I hate men! And why do YOU get to decide whether or not I am doing nindiya or joking? In the case of that staying at home comment, I WAS joking. Gurpreet knew I was LOL.

I thought there is no hell per say according to Gurbani? The hell is our own mind and being stuck in cycles of birth and death. There is no fire pit type of thing like Christians teach. Hell is here and now....just look how everyone treats everyone else! Any difference at all from someone else and you are marked to be treated with disrespect and called the lowest! Its all about spiritual progression. Some will progress faster than others but ultimately EVERY ONE will again merge back with Creator because everything really IS Creator. Its all one giant conscious energy field. Matter itself being manifest through consciousness.

I am not worried about my own, I am worried about the girls who growing up will be indoctrinated to think they are disgusting because of a natural function given by Waheguru Ji. That they will then grow up and shy away from seva because they feel they are not good enough to do it because of their cycles which they will only resent as being a mark of inferiority. It has to stop somewhere. There has to be someone willing to speak up to initiate change. I don't care about my own status. They can call me whatever they want, but if by initiating the discussion leads to understanding and down the road these young girls can grow up without resenting their gender like I had to, then I will be happy.

And yet, such thinking has labelled me as 'stupid' for condoning 'utterly disgusting' acts. This is truth. Plain and simple. Waheguru Ji is everywhere. A menstruating woman can not avoid Waheguru Ji because the divine is within her own self. So if that same divine is within her, then how can it ever be seen as a disgusting act if she does seva of SGGSJ? By sitting in sangat instead on the tabya she is no further away from Waheguru Ji.

Actually I thought he was just referring to women in general. I have posted before that due to my career and not having to worry about cycles, I have been using hormonal medication that stops cycles all together and I have been on them most of my adult life. So I have never directly had to deal with doing seva while on a cycle because I dont have them LOL. However I don't see any problem with it either. Especially with modern hygiene products. Women don't bleed so much that they are covered head to toe like that idol was! And I posted internal protection that keeps everything completely inside such that nobody would ever know she was menstruating - even if she was naked, they wouldn't know because its completely internal. So there is no issue in modern times about menstruation and seva.

No different than paapiman calling women "utterly disgusting" for doing seva while menstruating then. That too in nindya is it not? Its pointing out something he thinks is a bad quality. And really we can't go through our entire lives completely avoiding saying anything to anyone for fear of them seeing it as such! You are no different! You have called me a feminist. You consider feminism as a bad quality. You have done nindiya to me. You have said I can't possibly do the one thing my husband *needs* which is to obey him. You think my disobedience is a bad quality. You have done nindiya of me. (whether or not we agree on whether women are in a position where we have to obey men or not). The fact that you see me being disobedient as a bad quality and pointing it out and calling me feminist is nindiya. Paapiman not wanting to be married whatever his reasons, are not a bad quality. They are just a quality. Its an observation. Same as Gurpreet making fun saying that women should be at home caring for men like babies because they cant take care of themselves... we all knew it was in joking sarcastic way, but if you go by your above, she was doing nindiya of men. Everyone on here who says women lack spiritually, or need to obey men, or don't deserve equal opportunity in Sikhi, should not be allowed to do all seva, are dirty or impure during menstruation, are all doing nindiya of women. If we go by what you wrote, nobody on here has been subject to more bullying or nindiya than I have! Not a single person has been subject to anywhere NEAR what I have endured! I have been called transexual, ugly, fat, confused, 'thing' only recently because I tie a turban. I have been called a liar, deceitful, vulgar and a bunch of other names by chatanga because I showed the forum his PM, I have been called nindak, guru nindak, and worse for asking questions about charitropakhyan, I have been called feminist, man hater, etc. (including by you) because I believe Gurbani and our Gurus taught equality between all humans including gender. I could go on and probably fill a page with the horrific things I have been called! ....And you are worried about one comment where I said paapiman doesnt want to be married because of his views of women... which is not even a negative comment. Really... I guess its ok if the nindiya is AGAINST me though right? You have NEVER once spoke up against ANY of the above when it was against me. Or let me guess by pointing out that you never say anything when it's against me I am doing you nindiya now....

I have never gone after him! Ever! The only thing i have ever done was posted the PMs he sent me trying to get me to leave the forum! If you think that is me going after him, then you have a seriously skewed view.... That's what started him off at me! His big issue? I worded it that he told me to please leave the forum... instead of can you please leave the forum. As if that made it any better. Other than showing others what he did, I never went after him at all. I did used to respond to his posts every time he would bring it up to defend myself though. But I now have him blocked. This is what I posted. Because I showed everyone this. This PM arrived in my inbox, from a complete stranger. Nice huh?? This is why is so pissed off at me. Because I dared tell the forum about it.

I was merely poking fun because just before that in the same thread, he commented on that photo Gunahgar posted where blood was covering the idol from top to bottom. Paapiman made a comment that anyone thinking women can do seva while menstruating should have no problem with that image. He also stated that women doing seva during that time is an 'utterly disgusting act'. First of all, he somehow links that idol covered in blood to actual menstruation which is nothing like that, and then actually says its disgusting (because othwerise why would he think it would be a disgusting act for someone to do seva during that time?) So my comment was in reference to that, which occurred in the same thread. He has already stated that he will never get married. So I wasn't bullying him, I was replying to someone else who asked about him getting married... I was simply stating that he won't ever get married and here is an example why. There was no malice meant at all. If you ask him he will proudly exclaim that fact along with how disgusting he thinks we are (due to our biology), and he has openly in many many threads commented how women are lower than men, how men deserve more respect than women, and yes he even in one thread said we were not fully human (it was that thread where he said something about women not being manuki deh not sure if I spelled that correctly). Then he proudly exclaims any time that someone says males and females are equal in Sikhi, that Sikhi gives 'optimum' rights to both... he will never use equality. Because he does not believe in equality. Optimum rights to him, are less rights for us and more rights for men. I was merely stating through real examples why he will never be married (which he has already said). So I was not trying to bully anyone.

Is he at it again? I blocked him ages ago LOL.

That depends on which side of the fence you stand. From the point of those who think parts of DG were adulterated, it's heretical to think that someone could pass off false writings as the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Anyway not to start that discussion in here. But I wish we could have these discussions without people resorting to calling others words like nindak or heretic just because they believe differently (regardless of which side of the argument you lie on).

Perfect example of bullying ^^^ hahaha He walked right into that one not realizing that calling someone who disagrees with him a 'heretic' IS bullying LOL

@paapiman hopefully you can see this. Unlike breastfeeding which involves biology, tying s turban does not require any specific biology so therefore you can not simply say common sense says its for males only. And it does not specify only males do this. It says simply never be without a turban, tie one always. Since women too can tie one (where men can not breastfeed) then you simply can not say it was meant for only men using that as a comparison. Do you disagree with taksal and Nihang Maryadas which both say women as well as men are required to tie one? And also Rhetnama of Bhai Daya Singh Ji? I thought you followed Taksal Maryada to the letter? Women must not plait their hair and should keep their hair tied in a bun/top-knot, in order to respect your Kesh a small turban should be tied. Keski is not a kakkar (one of the five K’s).

Earrings can be made to fasten other ways than piercing. I do remember seeing where the piercing thing came from but can't remember right now. But I think the rest of jewelry is just that some people extrapolated from Gurbani where it says that naam is our jewelry. Obviously it's metaphor... Speaking to us that if we overindulge in these worldly things why can't we indulge in the spiritual things. So the metaphor (how I see it) is dress yourself up in your spirituality. But it's not saying don't wear jewelry ... And I don't think it means that at all. Also the other tuk was saying to treat gold and iron the same (if I remember correctly). So it's not saying don't wear it but it is saying don't treat it as a status symbol. Anyway that's how I take them to mean. But it's easy to see how some take them to the literal culmination and don't wear gold or jewelry at all. So I understand where it comes from. I do wear some jewelry but not piercings. And that is perfectly within Rehet Maryada. I don't wear earrings though as I just don't think they look good with turban. It comes off as two things which are seemingly polar opposites too close together... Spiritual (turban) too close to earrings (worldly). But it could just be me.

Anyone else get a feeling that Kaalka is really either Crystal or Chatanga? In fact, Crystal has actually called me transsexual before if anyone remembers... Anyway water off a duck's back :D Kaalka I told you, perseverance. And though some members have differing opinions than me on some things, turban tying women is NOT one of them. Admins, though I am not bothered by such things, and it only shows his immaturity (and it shows his frustration that he was not able to push his point and have everyone agree with him so he just lashed out because he's ticked off) I think that some amount of moderation should ensue because for one there are maybe young people coming here, and two that type of behaviour is most definitely not becoming of a Singh (or Kaur).

And this is the reason why some people tend to get really upset if women 'dress like men' etc. It has nothing to do with the women's looks and everything to do with keeping women in their place (which as you show) has been seen as inferior in many cultures. Of course, my tying a turban is seen by some Singhs as overstepping my inferior rank to Singhs, and trying to stand side by side with them, which in their eyes could never happen. I should be as Gurpreet Bhenji put it, home washing dishes, cooking having a boatload of babies and caring for my husband. Sikhi is supposed to be different. At least our Gurus taught different. I truly don't believe that being in Guru Gobind Sinhj Ji's roop was only meant for men. After all, Sikhi deals with the formless, the genderless, the soul. Btw if I was stuck in the culture of the girls in that article, I'd probably rather give up chance of marriage, to become a man too.