tva prasad

Maskeen ji also mentions the nectar from simran in his book Prabhu Simran.
Meditators in the Sikh world have been using rosary on a wide scale. By repeating Mool Mantra with rosary mind gets concentrated quickly. When some concentration is obtained by repeating Mool Mantra with the help of rosary and thereafter if Gur Mantra Waheguru, Waheguru is uttered repeatedly and loudly with the tongue, then with the grace of Guru ji, nectarious flavour starts trickling quickly. When repeating the name of God starts giving flavour then the name dwells on the tongue:-
prabh jee baseh saadh kee rasanaa.
God abides upon the tongues of His Saints.
Naanak jan kaa daasan dasanaa.
Nanak is the servant of the slave of His slaves.
kabeer maeree simaranee rasanaa oopar raam.
Kabeer, my rosary is my tongue, upon which the Lord's Name is strung.
kanthae maalaa jihavaa raam.
The mala is around my neck, and the Lord's Name is upon my tongue.
sehans naam lai lai karo salaam.
I repeat the Naam, the Name of the Lord, a thousand times, and bow in reverence to Him.

Now the Name which has dwelt on the tongue, is the rosary in the neck. This is the meditation of God. Appearance of flavour is the identification that the name has dwelt on the tongue. When such a person pronounces Waheguru, then a holy atmosphere is created around. If an uninitiated person comes near such a person, then his tongue will also utter Waheguru. Due to this reason these
words have been added in the Ardas:-
Introduce such lovely saints and Gurmukhs and due to union with them, we may recall Your name.
 

I was just reading gurbani this morning and guru ji took me to sidh gost which I absolutely love and find ever so inspiring. Was just reading a couple of posts after that in the meditation experiences thread and came to the following notes that had been made which are totally relevant to this topic.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/12279-meditation-my-experiance-am-i-allowed-to-share/?p=130408


I hope I have understood that shabad correctly and apologies if not.

Actually, I've just had a hint of occasional taste  as compared to Sat.
Problem is that sometimes I've gotten too absorbed in my visuals during simran.
When this happens, I find that I get stuck at that level and begin to fall back if anything.
I see the sweet taste as a sign of good progress in meditation and that you are going the right way.
However, there is definitely a major element of DEVOTION involved. You see the woman I know at my kundalini classes said to me that this sweet nectar is only tasted by meditators that are devoted to a higher conscious or God. She has had the sensation for years and years and she said that there are lots of people out there who only meditate to gain powers like clairvoyance or psychic abilities (ridhi sidhis). She said that none of these people get the sweet sensations because there devotion is only to their self-ego!
This is what I find amazing.
So, I don't think that the Blaine or Uri Gellar types (one's who meditate for mind powers only!) will comprehend the sweet nectar.

To me and many others it's an inspiration to do Naam Simran. No one is doing jaap to get sweet taste ( they can have it with one phone call ). People are just describing what they are experiencing and it's helping many others. What you call petty experiences can act as catalyst in somebody's spiritual journey. 
Many things are easier said than done. Talking about Faith, if your faith needs no "petty" experience then you should not be surfing this forum but be united with vaheguroo by now. 
 
 
 
 

you probably need to keep practicing and keeping going on simran path. I don't really know what music you would be hearing at that stage, but yes, there is music and it's different to what you hear here. It comes at various stages in various forms.

LOL.  it's good to listen to eardrum. I have been doing that since the age of 5/6 yrs or so. I used to lie down on one side with ear pressed against pillow and then use the beat to help me fall asleep  .....
 
It's good for your concentration, don't get me wrong. When I said "I don't advise".. my intention was to not suggest that you sit down for core simran and put fingers in your ears. You can do that along with other meditative actions during the day. I was speaking for the deeper groundwork sessions which we try and schedule at amrit vela etc. to sit down quietly by oneself and be totally relaxed to go antarghat.    .......(It's just that I had this mental image of someone trying to do deep simran, sat down cross-legged, and then struggling to get relaxed whilst trying to maintain fingers in ears! ..lol)
But yes, definitely incorporate dhyian into every task during your normal day to help increase that conscious awareness. Walking, sitting, eating, even washing up, brushing your teeth, getting dressed, combing your hair.
 
 
Sound advice.
Must have the right "intentions" is what I'm always saying.
If your intention is to truthfully surrender your mann and mattth to Waheguru, then he takes a hundred steps for your every one. But if your intentions are something else, .. then you just spin around roundabouts..  However, the Ego is so deceptive and clever that it will continue to find new ways to feed off your Mann.  
Mann is like a slave to the ego and we have to train; to still it, grab it and dedicate it to waheguru.   We want to be able to Keep "Har" in the mind, and Mind in "Har" at all times...
ਏ  ਮਨ  ਮੇਰਿਆ  ਤੂ  ਸਦਾ  ਰਹੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਲੇ  ॥
Ė man meri▫ā ṯū saḏā rahu har nāle.
O my mind, remain always with the Lord.
......and so comes the Anand!!!

It's much more complicated than me just sharing it written source material/root source, straight up because I have already understood the concepts and integrated it into my experience of life. I find myself talking from my experience, however this knowledge has been previously integrated into my experience, and it is available to be analyzed when I share my experience.
Often times I know the stuff, but I forget where it comes from, and whether or not I have ever read it. I didn't have those SGGS verses on my mind when I was posting about subtle and gross. When you said that I made it all up, then I had to retrace my steps. That's when I thought "I am sure what I said exists in SGGS". So then I looked and lo and behold, there it was.
Sometimes I get concepts from Ustad Nar Singh ji Narayan before I find written examples of those concepts (in Guru Granth Sahib or other books).
Haha such is the play!
 
This is important on so many levels.
And it goes back to the Bhagawati thread. Because a lot of what I said on that thread was an attempt to take people back to the puratan understanding of the scripture, instead of a modern one.
And the modern understanding doesn't even have to come from any particular Sikh scholar e.g. Bhai Vir Singh or through influence of British and Christian missionary attack on Indic heritage. Although those factors are there, it could simply be the product of a mixing of Indic cultures and religions to the point where you get a homogenized soup.
What has happened to our scriptures is a mixing and homogenizing, that is actually not (in part) the result of British Singh Sabha, rather it is  (in part) the result of the coming together and mixing of various Indic religions. And in this mixing you gain a new perspective on all those religions but you also lose the particular flavours of individual religions.
Like in a soup, you lose the flavour of the individual ingredients but the soup itself as a flavour of its own.
The product of that mixing up was taught by the British Singh Sabha types. That is taught by Prof Sahib Singh ji as well. And this is the modern mainstream view, not just held by modern Sikhs but also by other modern Indians.
And so this mixing has occurred so much so that our people have forgotten their original source and what their ancestors were about. They have forgotten the meanings of things like Bhagawati and Mahakal and Vishnu. And the meanings they give these terms is the meanings they derive from their modern understanding, post-mixing, post-soup era.
This was happening during the times of the Gurus as well. Hence why in Guru Granth Sahib they use the word Hari instead of Vishnu. Back then the word - Vishnu - had become corrupted (it had lots most of its meaning) amongst the masses, similar to how the word - God - has lost its effect nowadays.
In due time, there will be new popular words to describe the Supreme Reality, such as the words - Supreme Reality - itself. So this is just something we have to accept and go with, whilst we develop a better understanding of the modern and ancient.
I think this subtle-gross concept is related to the nirgun sargun concept. A lot of times when people talk about nirgun sargun on this forum, what they actually mean to do is talk about suksham asthool.
Because Nirgun and Sargun are only referring to the three Gun, three qualities - sattv, rajas, and tamas. Whereas Suksham and Asthool are referring to the formlessness and form-ness, to the spiritual, etheric reality and the material, solid, reality.
Suksham "does not register on the radar" and the Asthool "registers on the radar". That which registers on the radar is what we tend to focus on and spend our energy on so that's why there must be a journey from the Asthool, Gross realm, gradually into the Suksham, Subtle realm. On that journey we slowly discover new things that were previously not on our radar.
You will have noticed this process while studying history.
 
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਦੂਜਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਦਿਖਲਾਇਆ ॥
Duality is a law of the universe.  Day and night are reality! You cannot deny that there is such a thing as day and such a thing as night. Hot-cold, fast-slow, remembering-forgetting, etc. These are all dualities.
The most fundamental duality is the Subtle-Gross and Object-Subject and even more fundamental is the Self-God duality.
 
So
Duality is reality. But people become attached to duality and engrossed in it. They allow duality to leave impressions on themselves.

If we are clay, duality is a stamp, and we get imprinted on by the stamp of the world.
And these imprints are not necessarily bad. Things like -  respect your elders - is actually a good imprint. So are - eat healthy food, meditate, exercise, etc. There are much subtle imprints as well, which form the basis of our very identity. And these must be discovered on the way inwards, where we observe our selves in action.
But the idea is to transcend those imprints, all of them. No matter how closely we hold them.
Because they maybe useful in the gross reality (often are). However to understand that which is most subtle, Hari, these imprints must be transcended because they will interfere in understanding of Hari.
The Analogy used by Kabir ji explains exactly why that is -
ਹਰਿ ਭਇਓ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰਿਓ ਹਸਤੀਂ ਚੁਨਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Hari is like sugar mixed in with sand and spread out, an elephant cannot pick out the sugar.
ਕਹਿ ਕਮੀਰ ਕੁਲ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਂਤਿ ਤਜਿ ਚੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਚੁਨਿ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥੩॥੧੨॥
Kabir ji says, leave behind your baggage* and be an ant and eat the sugar.
(baggage - your tribe, fanclub, profession, ancestory, status etc your identity, even your acquired knowledge and experience)
The nature of the subtle reality, of Hari, is such that it is mixed in your everyday experience. And when you are so focused on the world, on the gross elements, you lose sight of the subtle elements. You lose sight of Hari, who is most subtle, and who is mixed into your experience, and so he does not show up on your radar.
Hari is right under your nose, but the reason you might not see him is because you are looking for him incorrectly. So Kabir ji tries to explain how to look for him correctly.
 

"Mate, all your use and definitions of 'subtle' seem to have originated from your mind more than anywhere else."
But have they really?
ਤੂੰ ਸੂਖਮੁ ਹੋਆ ਅਸਥੂਲੀ ॥   तूं सूखमु होआ असथूली ॥   Ŧūʼn sūkẖam ho▫ā asthūlī.   From the very small and subtle, You have become huge and manifest. (God) You are subtle (spiritual) and have become gross (material).
 
ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥   आपहि सूखम आपहि असथूला ॥   Āpėh sūkẖam āpėh asthūlā.   He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious. (God) He is by himself subtle and he is by himself gross.
 
ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਥੂਲ ਸੂਖਮ ਸਭਿ ਜੰਤਾ ॥   सिमरहि थूल सूखम सभि जंता ॥   Simrahi thūl sūkẖam sabẖ janṯā.   All beings, both subtle and gross, meditate in remembrance. All subtle and gross beings meditate on God.

Is it a stretch to say what I did?
This is ancient lore but it has a deeper meaning.
1. Guru Sahib is saying -
 ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
From the subtle came the gross.
From the most subtle (ਸਾਚੇ) Hari, spiritual, came (ਪਵਨਾ) the less subtle elements. From the less subtle elements came (ਜਲੁ) even less subtle elements. These elements then forms the "watery womb of Maya", material, from this material came bodies and places of living.

 
I have merely understood what is meant by sublte and gross - ਸੂਖਮ and ਅਸਥੂਲ.
And I tried to explain it in English.
 
PS
@dalsingh101Dude I am sharing spiritual concepts here.
You can't take everything I say as my interpretation and ignore it as such, otherwise you will entirely miss what I am actually sharing. You have to be attentive and alert, and be able extract what is relevant to you.

@paapiman
To be ether-like, to be space, is to be empty, is to be Nirankar.

Look Gunahgar got it -
This is it.
(It is a teaching for different levels of students as well.)

ਕਬੀਰ ਰੋੜਾ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੁ ਬਾਟ ਕਾ ਤਜਿ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
Kabir says be a pebble and renounce your ahankar, your sense of self that is distinct from everyone else
ਐਸਾ ਕੋਈ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ॥੧੪੬॥
If one becomes a servant without ahankar, then one will find Bhagwan.

Pebble is gross.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰੋੜਾ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਪੰਥੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੇਇ ॥
Kabir says, so what if you have become a pebble, so what? A pebble hurts the feet of travellers.
ਐਸਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਧਰਨੀ ਮਹਿ ਖੇਹ ॥੧੪੭॥
Your servant is like dust on the earth. (Dust does not hurt the feet of travellers)
Dust is gross but more subtle than pebble.

ਕਬੀਰ ਖੇਹ ਹੂਈ ਤਉ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਜਉ ਉਡਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਅੰਗ ॥
Kabir says, so what if you have become dust, so what? Dust flies and dirties the body.
ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੧੪੮॥
The servant of Hari should be like water, which cleans the body.
Water is more subtle than dust.

ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਨੀ ਹੂਆ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਸੀਰਾ ਤਾਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
Kabir says, so what if you have become water, so what? It becomes hot and cold.
ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਐ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥
The servant of Hari, shouldbe like Hari.
That is the follower of Hari should be as subtle as Hari.
 
The secret is Ustad Nar Singh ji Narayan.
I am an ant when it comes to gyan.

Where do you learn this stuff...this one is quite amazing I have to say. What are your secret sources lol
What you said above also reminds me about a Shabad by Bhagat Kabir ji where he gives examples of being a stone on road, and then being a dust, not satisfied with that being water , and not satisfied with all three, being like Hari himself only. Maybe that is also similar to transformations in ones journey.
 

Another way to think about gross and subtle, is to look at it in terms of impressions.
Imagine you are at the gross level, at the earth level. You are like clay, so whenever there is a negative experience, someone presses in to the clay, it leaves an impression in the clay and it stays for a long time, thus you suffer more.
As you progress spiritually, you become water. When there is a negative experience, someone throws a rock into the water, there are ripples, but they pass away more quickly.
As you progress spiritually, you become air. Where there is a negative experience, someone waves their hand, the air moves but settles back almost immediately. Thus negative experiences, do not stick to air.
As your progress spiritually and become Hari, ether-like, pure space, pure void. Nothing makes any ripples or sticks. There is no impressions.
It's a way of thinking about it.
 
(Impressions also mean attachment. To be without attachment is to be without any impressions on you. To not hold onto anything.
Impression is a metaphor for that which shakes you. The more gross you are, the more you shaken when there is trouble. The more subtle you are, the less you shake.)

This is ancient lore but it has a deeper meaning.
1. Guru Sahib is saying -
 ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
From the subtle came the gross.
From the most subtle (ਸਾਚੇ) Hari, spiritual, came (ਪਵਨਾ) the less subtle elements. From the less subtle elements came (ਜਲੁ) even less subtle elements. These elements then forms the "watery womb of Maya", material, from this material came bodies and places of living.
 
2. This is correlated to our body.
ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡੇ ਸੋਈ ਪਿੰਡੇ ਜੋ ਖੋਜੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
That which is in the universe, is in our body, those who seek find it.

Subtle means intuitive, spiritual, light, etheric
Gross means sensory, material, heavy, hard
The universe exists in the range of subtle to gross. They are relative to each other.  Like water is subtle when compared to earth but gross when compared to air.
So our body is gross, it is material, and senstory, and we are identified with the gross body, we must work our way inwards and go through all the levels of subtlety to find the most subtle that is Hari, who is intuitive, spirit and etheric.
From the subtle came the gross. We are so identified with gross that we start at gross. We must work our way back to subtle, and thus the most subtle which is Hari.
 

3. This ties into the
ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥
Since air is the most subtle, it is representative of the Guru archetype. The Guru is someone who has worked back from gross to subtle to Hari. We need the Guru because we need someone who has the subtlety in them, who can see that subtle dimension and take us there.

This might also be relevant
ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.
ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.
The best explanation of ਪਵਨਾ i've come across is from Faridkot teeka, there it's defined as Pawan devta (or the god of air), the explanation by Bhai Vir Singh ji talks of origin of gases and the three forms of matter 

I am that 'other' guy who says you should listen to your blood pumping and ear drum vibrating. lol
When you are listening to this music... remember these words.
There's a trap in any practice/ritual.
Watch out for this trap!
What trap?
What happens is that people forget that they are there to train their concentration. people forget that they are there to obtain Yog with Waheguru, ie to merge with their mool swaroop.
They forget to - Chit Vriti Nirodh - to stop the wandering of the mind.

While you are on your inner journey, if you forget your purpose, if you forget why you are there and where you intend to go, then you will get lost in sounds and stuff. These will become like the vicious sirens, and no matter how much you tie yourself up with ropes, they will get to you.
Even those people who are chanting mantras, when they forget why they are doing it, they get distracted easily and then where did the mantra go? nobody knows.
We don't want to fall in this trap.
We want to progress and merge with Ram. This is the purpose for which you and I were created.
ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
Kabir ji says, chant "Ram, Ram" but keep this in mind! The ones who didn't have the intention to merge with Ram, they merged in many worldly distractions; the ones who maintained an intense intention to merge with Ram, they merged with Ram.

thanks for clarification bro

so true.

just let it come at it's pace. In the meantime, whilst progressing, you should read more gurbani because things may begin to make more sense.

Whether the saliva is sweet or not doesn't really matter, the senses are perceiving that a sweet nector is in the mouth. Just accept the parshad from the divine and drink it in. 

similar thing happened to me this morning. When I was meditating I had this sweet taste everytime I swallowed and it stayed for a while after meditation. It actually started happening about 2 days ago and I found it's getting stronger each day and lasting longer. Whenever it occurs it only occurs when I am meditating. My saliva tasted sort of sweet and when I swallowed it was even sweeter. Could I be experiencing what u describe. All replies appreciated. Thanks

Exactly. 
 
Maya is also bound by time.
It goes like this:
200 human years = 1 day of Indar devta
200 lifetimes of Indar devta = 1 day and night of Brahma jee
200 lifetimes of Brahma jee = 1 day and night of Shivjee
200 lifetimes of Shivjee = 1 day and nIght of Vishnu jee
200 lifetimes of Vishnu jee = 1 Chhin of Maya
 
Bhul chuk maaf

Being totally honest with you all. Please don't think I'm some mega abhyaasi. I am not actually putting in as much effort as you might think. I'm sure you all do much more simran than das and are more dedicated. That is why I'm always questioning and doubting my own experiences. Because if I compare the amount of simran I do compared to what seems to be manifesting I think to myself, it can't be that easy. I haven't even got to the stage where I sit down for a fixed period time everyday. My simran just consists doing simran whenever I can throughout the day. Even if it is in 1 minute bursts or longer. The biggest contributor to progress must be Waheguru's grace and Sangat and technique and clarity of your own mind (how much do you let issues bother you and disturb your inner peace).

Learn to focus on the sound for the gurmantar that comes out of your mouth. I just put my all my dhyaan about an inch or two in front of my lips. Learn to sit that mind at the position and listen to your own voice. When your mind gets used to sitting there you certainly notice the difference and can feel and hear the jaap as it's happening. Mind becomes 100% focused on the jaap and does not wonder off. Take it slow, it's not a race. You will feel so much anand when you get into the grove you won't want to stop. That is all I'm doing nothing more and nothing less. The way I've been taught is to lock the mind on the gurmantar rather than having vichar/thoughts. The biggest hurdle and wall between us and god realisation is our thoughts. As they reduce changes begin to manifest. This approach seems to be the easiest I've come across and appears to be leading to progress really quickly after I have tried so many other techniques. i.e dhyaan on trikuti, heart or navel etc.

Try and reduce jealousy and slander of others in your day to day life. Be humble and polite to everyone regardless or caste, creed or faith. Try not to hurt anyone else feelings and to see God in all.

WaheGuru

There's a Puraatan Kharrda (manuscript) of the Hukams kept at Poanta Sahib. 
 

Both.
As you are aware, heat causes vasodilation and cold causes vasoconstriction.
 After a workout, muscles are tighter, pumped and have gone through a series of contractions.  A series of events unfold from these contractions which leads to many chemicals being produced and especially lactic acid.    I have had it explained to me as if to think of the internal blood muscle differently to  the blood that bathes the external muscle. Therefore, the internal part of the muscle draws in as much blood and nurtrients for the contractions, but it can end up pooling in there and causing stiffness later on.   In effect, the blood bathing the external  body of muscle will be less mobile and of a lower volume.  This is why your biceps end up looking and feeling pumped after workout.  ...with all this in mind, it makes sense to get some vasodilation to prevent stiffness and cramps... so you would use "heat".  However, too much dilation can lead to more loss of sweat and salts, so many people recommend to do a quick switch to cold and get the vasoconstriction. This way none of your body parts will be deprived of any nutrients and you will feel stimulated and more alive.  But the biggest reason for me to do this hot-cold is because it is activates and energizes your subtle-etheric body and helps get your prana flowing. Remember that prana/chi is not air/oxygen, but it is the sukham life-force. You will also understand why many Sikhs recommend a cold shower at amrit vela. I believe you get the same effect if you have a warm shower and then in the last minute or so turn the dial to cooler and colder. I usually get out of the shower after being exposed to it's coldest setting for the last 30 seconds or to the point where I get the shift in my breathing pattern.
 

Ref: Shabad Sidhi Bhandar
 
Bhul chuk maaf

http://hamaraswasthya.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/shifting-navel-or-naval-displacement-or.html?m=1
It talks about some yogic asans that can fix the displacement of the navel (under "yoga cure").