SikhWannaBe

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I spent half my langar eating life sitting at a table and the other half sitting on the floor. I felt no difference in my 'humbleness'. But I do remember one difference, that being that we sat in the langar hall alot longer when we sat at tables. We talked to the congregation more and generally socialized. In temples where I sat on the floor there seems to be one thing on everones mind, 'I have got to get out of here'. And frankly, Guru Nanak Ji didn't have the privilege of being able to sit on a modern toilet. I suggest that if you want to really live the humble life of Guru Nanak Ji, maybe you should shun that toilet in your house and go do your business outside. I hate rituals! As far as the original post, I think it is fantastic and also shows that Guru Nanak Ji was clearly thinking about feeding all humanity not just sikhs. Therefore, a movement towards eradication of humans starving ought to be a priority for all Sikhs

So what about all the kids that are not conceived out of love but another reason? Where does that place them? Adoption is definately the best way to spread love, having your own biological child can only be described as selfish where one knows that there are many children in need of your parenting services. Most of the reasons I believe people have children are selfish. They either do it involuntarily to spread their genes, or purposefully to live vicariously through their young and finally because they are too ignorant to understand how to use contraceptives. The third world has an added example of having families to facilitate in production and family survival. It is very rarely, that I have met parents that are bringing children into the world to create a person free of bias and filled with love for humanity. Point being adoption rules.

So what does that make Sikh people who are gay? They're not welcome to participate in Sikhism? I guess that isn't much different from all the other faiths. Did the 'holy book' say this specifically or is this someone's interpretation of what is written. If someone has the quotes to match Khalsa Fauj's post that would be great. Personally, I am hoping that it can be interpreted to include all unions.

I am not sure which posts were chit chat types but I will try to make sure mine are more robotic in nature from now on. Amrik's post raises some interesting points, what are the Sikh positions on other aspects of sex or procreation specifically? 1. Adoption 2. New Reproductive and Genetic Technologies 3. Contraceptive use 4. Gay sex or marriage (which was declared legal by the SCC in Canada, today) 5. Eugenics I'm sure there are many others but lets see if someone clarify those first, Thanks in advance.

What is there to be confused about? Cheating is a moral wrong no doubt about it. But cheating does not go against nature since we were clearly created this way and have created biological mechanism to address it. I am suggesting the purpose for males to engage with the opposite sex is not premised on enjoyment but rather the need to pass on their genes as widely as possible. Manogamous relationships clearly go against the desire to pass on your genes to many, therefore you will have to battle your biological urges daily or even by the minute if you look at characters like 'Beast'.(No offence intended) Females don't have the same problems since as long as they are impregnated they will pass on their genes. There is no guarantee for males that once they deposit sperm, the child born to that female is actually his or another male's child. Therefore it requires a different approach, that being impregnate many. Of course today cheaters are primarily concerned with pleasure rather than gene delivery but at least we should not blame them for the urge. We should blame them for not being able to control it. And while we're at 'it', where is the line of cheating really drawn today? Is it at sexual activity or as soon as you are emotionally engaged with someone or somewhere inbetween? Just wondering what your thoughts are on that. From reading the earlier posts it appears that Sikhism draws the line quite early at 'looking at another'. I would have to agree that it is much earlier than physical contact and but probably not at looking either. I'd say the point where one wants to spend time with another at the detriment of your partner. Spending time could be talking, emailing etc.

Whoa nelly, it doesn't take much to get you fired up Ms. V. I don't think anyone was suggesting that extra-marital relations is a good idea, just that manogamy may not be natural. As far as, hurting your partner, that would only happen if they discovered your infidelity or if you passed on an STD. Of course the cheater would have to suffer with his/her own demons but I think it would be a further sin to baggage your partner with the problem. You messed up deal with it yourself. 'Goodness Gracious Me' was a British Indian Tv show similar to 'In Living Colour' but focussed on British Indian habits. Some great episodes you should check it out. I believe one of the creators of 'Goodness Gracious Me' has made a new show now called the 'Kumars at number 44', I haven't seen it yet but hear it is pretty good. I didn't get the swelling bit, or maybe I don't want to get it?! Oh and maybe you should tell your friend 'Geezus' about the site, I'd love to hear his comments.

This has got to be one of the funniest threads I've ever read on the net. It sounds like a Goodness, Gracious Me skit. Anyhow, some food for thought. Love has 14 different meanings to the Greeks, the problem with trying to define is that it takes so many forms. eg. love of a child, parent, spouse, lover, sibling, etc. As far as the cheating bit think about this: (please close your eyes if your under 35) I was reading about the characteristics of sperm. Reseachers have found that male sperm actually carries various forms of sperm. There not all heading for the egg like in those look who's talking flicks. Only about 30 percent are headed to the egg. The remainder are classed as fighting sperm. What are they fighting your wondering? They are fighting the other sperm. Now your thinking why would your own sperm fight with each other? Wrong they are to fight another man's sperm, meaning we have created a biogical response to the issue of a woman having multiple sexual partners! The observations are profound, but suggest that manogamy is a human construct and therefore something that has to be worked on daily as suggested by the Sikh text. Another interesting point of note is that a woman was found to actually be more likely to become pregnant from an encounter with her lover than her regular mate. I don't remember the reasoning for this but I sure you could google this stuff. Oops gotta a go the other half is coming.

How much does he charge for this ghost busting service? I hope the rates are competative, if not I can probably do it cheap!

it's true that there is a very big difference between what's goin on in the UK compared to over here. and i appreciate the differences that you're trying to make. everyone makes a difference, even when they think that they aren't. but it's possible to make differences without letting go of your religion. at the same time, the situation over here in toronto isn't as bad as you think. granted that we aren't at the same level as the brits, but we aren't exactly a new frontier anymore. lol... Yes, this is true but if you consider the opportunites for new Sikh immigrants in Canada, or any immigrants for that matter, the opportunities are quite grim. eg. Foriegn trained professionals are forced into manual labour positions until professional associations decide to recognize their credentials. I may have exagerated the conditions slightly but I believe the difference is still night and day when compared to the U.K. haha... the point of the 5 Ks... i doubt whether any one would be able to tell you what the point of the 5 Ks is with absolute certainty. they do show what your faith may be. but in some cases, they don't even do as much, since not everyone who has chosen to adopt the "Sikh look" as drawrof has so kindly put it has the personality to match it. but tha's another topic. I should have said one of the purposes of the 5Ks was to provide a distinct physical appearance. as for standing out for one's actions rather than appearance, i hope that's what everyone does. but why are you attempting to make the choice for other Sikhs? if there are people out there that truly want to carry the 5 Ks, then they should be allowed to do so, right? similarly, there are people out there that don't wish to commit to the 5 Ks. like i said before, there's a choice. and people are entitled to make whichever one they wish to do so. I am not an abolitionist, I was just making the point that we have an unnecessary divide between those that are Khalsa sikhs and those that are not. Yes, the Khalsa stands for something distinct but I don't believe it is something superior, it is just distinct. I want to see a more cohesive spirit as it once was. ur comment about wishing to have time to educate yourself on the 5 Ks doesn't really sit well with me. granted that everyone has time contstraints, the point is to make your faith a priority and make time for it instead of waiting for the time to magically appear somehow. but if you can't do that much at this point, there's nothing wrong about that either. everyone has their own limitations. and there's no real deadline for you to run against to educate yourself on Sikhi. do it on ur own pace. Sukhi, I think I could devote my whole life to trying to understand Sikhi and still not come up with a conclusion. I realize that I would grow tremendously in the process but that would only be personal growth. I am most motivated and driven towards community growth and I choose to focus my spare time in that direction at this time but I expect that I will learn oodles about Sikhi in the process. that's a very general definition of what a Sikh is. but as long as we're clear on what you're definition of Sikh is, it becomes much easier to discuss the topic. and according to your own definition, i think it's safe to say that this makes a very large part of the world Sikh. so what's the difference than between being a Sikh and just a regular human being? I agree that my definition is broad but I do not agree that it captures alot of people. Maybe I have had bad experiences in my life but my interactions have resulted in my perception of the majority of the population selfish and rarely perform good actions. I question why you would need a further distinction other? Guru Nanak as far as I now was a man that wanted to see an inclusive society, not one divided along arbitrary lines such as appearance. But once again that is just my take. And Sukhi_V, we need you sharp mind in the organization some of us want to create, please avail us your services. I am sure that we can hammer out a constitution that you and others will applaud. Charn Gill

Wow, 24hrs and we have grown 400%, I hope we can keep that up. Drawrof - I will PM you after my last exam on Dec. 13th to obtain that list. Thanks in advance. ThinkingOne - could you offer more details of the work you are describing, sounds like it may be helpful to hear as a source of inspiration or possibly more. Infernal Monk - a constitution or charter sounds like the right starting point. I will try and create one in a study break and we can debate it online. But of course someone else is welcome to create a draft if they are so inclined. I feel empowered already from hearing your positive feedback. Charn

My comments below are the climax of another thread re: whether the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism? Dear Drawrof, I thank you for the appreciation and I in turn appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. Your suggestions are great and as I stated earlier I try to live by a similar sentiment. But what I think we need now, is a collective movement towards the ideals that you and Sikhism encourages. Somebody needs to co-ordinate Sikhs both visible and non-visible to work together on identifying goals for our community members on a personal, community and global level. I am suggesting a new forum whether it is this website, an organization or another entity where Sikhs can come together for the sole purpose of discussing the advancement of our faith and culture. To be clear I am not talking about changing our faith in anyway but strictly to identify areas that may need attention and then suggest possible solutions. As I stated earlier, I am going to be contacting alot of the Sikh community in Toronto regarding the Legal Scholarship I want to create. It seems like a good idea to collect the information of contributors so that we can start to create a list of Sikhs that could be used to advance other issues. If we did this on a global scale and created a newsletter for example it could become a very powerful medium to influence our community for the positive. There are other faiths in our communities that may not share the same ideals as ours but are more effective at mobilizing their community. We can mimic their success to our advantage. I often use the Jewish community as an example since I am constantly amazed at their level of organization. For example, do you know that there is a program they created that allows any Jewish child born in Canada to visit Israel for free. Our community is far from creating a program like that but if we don't begin thinking about it, we will never get there. So what I am asking first is do you want to participate? If you think the idea is stupid then say that too. But realize that I will be doing this in my community regardless of whether anyone else wants to help or not, but any assistance would be greatly appreciated. And again I do not intend to touch any issues regarding our faith but merely want to address areas of concern for our community.(eg. lack of Sikh lawyers in Toronto) and then suggest solutions. The first step would be data collection, I will start this in Toronto (any loacl help is welcome), but if someone has a list or wants to create a list of Sikhs in other communities that would be great. This sounds really exciting to me and hope others share my sentiments. Charn Gill

Dear Drawrof, I thank you for the appreciation and I in turn appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. Your suggestions are great and as I stated earlier I try to live by a similar sentiment. But what I think we need now, is a collective movement towards the ideals that you and Sikhism encourages. Somebody needs to co-ordinate Sikhs both visible and non-visible to work together on identifying goals for our community members on a personal, community and global level. I am suggesting a new forum whether it is this website, an organization or another entity where Sikhs can come together for the sole purpose of discussing the advancement of our faith and culture. To be clear I am not talking about changing our faith in anyway but strictly to identify areas that may need attention and then suggest possible solutions. As I stated earlier, I am going to be contacting alot of the Sikh community in Toronto regarding the Legal Scholarship I want to create. It seems like a good idea to collect the information of contributors so that we can start to create a list of Sikhs that could be used to advance other issues. If we did this on a global scale and created a newsletter for example it could become a very powerful medium to influence our community for the positive. There are other faiths in our communities that may not share the same ideals as ours but are more effective at mobilizing their community. We can mimic their success to our advantage. I often use the Jewish community as an example since I am constantly amazed at their level of organization. For example, do you know that there is a program they created that allows any Jewish child born in Canada to visit Israel for free. Our community is far from creating a program like that but if we don't begin thinking about it, we will never get there. My comments sound like they have out grown this thread so I will repost what I just said in a new post asking for participants and support.

Infernal Monk That quote captures what I have been trying to convey but I probably wasn't as effective or concise. You didn't provide your thoughts on the quote, I am curious? Charn

Charn Gill, i fail to see how exactly it is you believe that the 5 Ks detract from a person's social standing. i have friends that are extremely intelligent with all 5 Ks that are prominent professionals. I don't recall speaking specifically to social standing or intelligence, I was speaking about opportunities to earn. I was born in the U.K. and go back rather often, while in the U.K. I feel a sense of freedom by observing so many visibly Sikh individuals in varying professions. Unfortunately, In Toronto my experience is very different. It is very rare to see visibly Sikh individuals in anything other than low paying positions. Toronto is many years behind British cities as far as integration of Sikhs. And as I feel the pressure today, the Sikhs in the U.K. from generations before us also felt the pressure to cut their hair to integrate. It is their sacrifice, along with those that chose to keep the 5Ks that have improved things for the current generation of Sikhs. I only want to make things better(easier) for the next generation. if you look for negativity, tha's all ur gonna get. Trust me I am not looking for negativity, I am a very positive person but also a realist. i'm not gonna deny that some people get very self-conscious about their appearance. and i'm certainly not going to deny that discrimination does exist in the workplace. but i will deny your claim that you need to drop your religious beliefs to get anywhere professionally. I am not saying to drop them but rather be able to mask them. Why should I have an outward indicator of my faith. Yes, I understand that this was exactly the point of the 5Ks but today seeing a Khalsa Sikh is no quarantee that he can and will understand his/her calling. Therefore, why not stand out by your actions rather than your appearance. I think this achieves the same goal. as for your comment about not being ready to take on the commitment of the 5 Ks... i don't think you should do that even if you felt financially secure without actually understanding what they're about. no one is telling you that you must immediately take amrit to be a Sikh. it has been said in a variety of posts that being a Sikh doesn't necessarily mean you have to a part of the Khalsa. there is a choice. I realize this and when I say I would like to participate I mean from an educational perspective. I don't think that I can wake up tomorrow and start participating in the 5Ks. I mean I wish I had the time to set aside all else in my life and learn all there is to learn about Sikhi, which will include the 5Ks and many other aspects. I don't claim to know anything other than a very periferal view. i don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. if i thought this topic was a waste of time, i wouldn't come here and share my thoughts. i apologize if that's the impression you got from my "deja vu" comment. i simply meant that things are just being repeated over and over again. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I just appreciate how long it takes to post like this while also studying. Please don't think I haven't learned anything. to end this post, i would like to pose a question to you now, Charn. what makes a Sikh in your opinion? I think a Sikh was best described by Dynamic_Banda when he said all you have to do is Naam, whether by recitation, meditation or action. My answer is very short and I don't think it needs to be any more complicated. I don't think I need to participate in the 5Ks or any other ritual as long as my mind is pure. I do believe I must be on a constant charge to better myself and humanity. For me, I can say that I rarely recite or meditate but I look at all actions I take daily, including things that are as minuscule as typing this post. I try to leave things in a better way than I found them and offer assistance to whoever needs or wants it. To leave the planet better than we found it is the purpose of my whole existence. I entered law school after selling a profitable business. If all I sought was material possessions I could have been a multi-millionaire by now. I believe law can be used to get very wealthy but it can also be used for the greater good. In that vain I joined the newly created Sikh Law Students Association at Osgoode Hall Law School and I have started an initiative to try and create a scholarship for future Sikhs that want to enter law. It is through trying to create this scholarship that the fragmentation of the Sikh community in Toronto has become most apparent. My colleague is the President of the Jewish Law Students Association, which is also raising funds to combat anti-semitism, he was able to raise $13,000 through an afternoon of phone calls. I haven't gotten a dime yet, and expect it to take me months to even get close to that amount. I would like to see our community grow spiritually as well as economically since I believe it would be a sin for us to use the money for anything other than the betterment of all. Sorry I strayed a little but my point is that I try to lead an honest life and try to help my fellow man, which includes Sikhs.

Infernal Monk Thank you for sharing your personal experience but I was not referring to protecting my children from discrimination. I expect the colour of their skin will warrant discrimination regardless of the 5Ks. What I was trying to protect them from is having to live in poverty or a lower standard of living than they deserve. As a lawyer to be, I am most aware of the hiring practices of this field and can tell you there are no visibly Sikh lawyers in the higher paying legal positions in Toronto. I accept that there may be a couple that I haven't come across but I doubt it. Why should I have to take a lower paying position simply because I choose to participate in the 5Ks and consequently why should my children live a lower standard of living. This is what I am talking about when I say I have to provide for my children first. It is only after Sikhs infiltrate these elite communities will we be able to shatter ignorant stereotypes that keep us down at the moment. If I work at one of these firms and consequently their persepective changes towards Sikhs it will open the door to visibly Sikh applicants in the future. I think many before you and I have done just that in other fields and we owe them alot for sacrificing their beliefs for the betterment of our whole community. Unfortuntely, the Sikhs that have infiltrated the upper echelon rarely look back at where they came from, I believe this is a result of a faith that did not support them on the path they chose. And please before you or someone says that I am materialistic, please realize that philanthropy is not possible without money. As far as your request that I try to understand more about the 5Ks before calling for change...I believe there is nothing you can say that can warrant my not being able to afford the lifestyle I want for my kids. I am personally very eager to participate in the 5Ks because I think it will be a humbling experience that can only help my personal growth but I cannot afford to do it at this time. As far as insults, I take them personally since I am writing personally. I have opened up the doors of my life and I am not going to tolerate someone passing judgment on it or my attitude. Sukhi_V I apologize if you feel I am wasting your time, I have read all of the posts at length and I stated from the very beginning that I respect those that want to participate in the 5Ks, my question was not really about the validity of the 5Ks but really to address the reality of many like myself that want to participate in the 5Ks but feel they cannot at this time. I think this group is very large and therefore affecting the growth of Sikhism. I hear your point that Sikhism is not concerned with growth. So I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. But I wish there was a way for us to co-exist and work on some of the points that both sides agree upon. Charn Gill