BabbarSher

Thank you for giving me your permission Babbasher ji! I did not know you were a moderator here on this site!!! Nahin scholar sahib, I am not a Moderator, but if you keep up such views, of miseducating young sikhs, you will find me in all such posts .. that you may make You are right about ChaupaSIngh rahitnama but then again we are talking about a military context and of Sunni-Mughals in particular. Again your position is totally contradicted by the historical fact that Pir Budhu Shah (a Shia) made an alliance with Guru Gobind Singh. I only posted from the texts you advise. Whats wrong with that ? You seem to change your statements and contexts faster then a Chameleon Pir Buddhu Shah Ji was a blessed person who recognised the Jot in Guru Ji. He did not make a 'political' alliance with Guru Ji. People who make political alliance dont sacrifice their sons. Pir Ji recognised Guru Ji because he was blessed, not because he was Shia. Have the sikhs never fought the shias or been hunted by the Shias during the time of Misls and thereafter? It's not about having the same opinion but about dialogue: which is exactly what our Gurus did! Dialogue, Yes, propaganda......even the gentle brainwashing kind... no ..

Dear VeerJi's, My views on Dasam Granth are: 1. Not all that is contained in Dasam Granth is Gurbaani, but there is authentic Baani like Jaap Sahib etc. 2. Dasam Granth was not compiled by the Guru's, but it was supposedly done by Bhai Mani Singh much later - as pointed out by Kesar Singh Chibber. However kesar Singh also writes that a 'sikh' cursed Bhai Sahib, that his 'band band' would be cut, yet he would remain steadfast in his sikhi. This seems to be a crude attempt to undermine the sikhi of a great sikh like Bhai Mani Singh. Please analyse, this story. See how the story attempts to say that the bemisaal shahdat of Bhai Mani Singh was due to a 'curse' by a 'sikh', not because he was a great sikh. Further there is neither a concept of Boon or curse in sikhi. All powers are in the hand of almighty not with anyone. Further a true sikh would never curse, Bhai Sahib, who himself being a tru sikhi would never do any unsikhi or manmati acticity. Kesar Singh Chiber also writes that he is writing the accounts on hearsay... something which poses a question mark on the authenticity of his accounts. He wrote his Bansavalinama when he was 72 years old !!! 3. Even if we assume for a moment that Bachittar Natak and CharitroPakhyan are Gurbaani, we cannot accord them the same status as Guru Granth sahib, that is the status of our Guru. If we were to do that, tommorrow, somone may question why we canot have Prakash of Bhai Gurdas Baani, for that is Panth Pravnit. 4. The fact, dear Veers is to sit down, think cooly and arrive at a conclusion for the benefit of sikhs all over. I wonder what stops the SGPC from having a debate within the 2 factions to resolve the issue. I have recently bought a book by Principal Harbhajan Singh Ji - titled Dasam Granth Baare Chonven Lekh. I will try and type some excerpts from it. Akal Sahai

Amrit: Please give the exact quotes ... Also, please answer the article.. the Sangat would like that .. Lallesh: Whats "no" ???? lol

Dear 'Self Proclaimed Scholar Jeo': There is a different between respect and giving the status of Guru or Prophet (in muslim terminology) to someone. The muslims (to the best of my knowledge, respect Guru Nank Dev Ji as a Fakir, not as a Guru, they do not accord the status of Baani (divine revelation) to Gurbaani. You may call Prophet Mohammed a Prophet, but do they accord the same respect to the Gurus ?? Has it something to do with the Prophet proclaiming himself to be the seal of al prophets, that there would be no future prophets after him ! ? Was the fight of the prophet, for making the unbelievers, believe in God, or was it for making them believe in himself. If the earlier, than I fail to understand ..the muslim Kalima, and why it is necessary to read it to enter heaven. Also if the earlier, then why the massacre of Jews in cold blood ? 3. Regarding the quote from Babbarsher the word Turk applies to Mughals, not Muslims in general and definitely not Shias. Pir Budhu Shah was a Shia and so were many ministers of Maharaja Ranjit SIngh's darbar. Does that make Guru Gobind SIngh a tankhaya? Scholar Ji, dont take double standards here. You use the very same Sources, to proove your points and seem to accept the sources without any hitch when they serve your purposes. (For e.g. the Kesh post). Similalrly you tend to use Bahi Kahn Singh Nabha's Mahaan Kosh to suit ur purposes when required, while at other places, conveniently skip over sections of Mahaan Kosh like - the Note on Wajib Ul Arz _ Does this reflect your scholarlly unbiased attitude. Also, the word Turk doesnt apply to Mughals in the Rahitnam. You did miss out "Musalman matrai akhiyan ein ki biswas na karai " 4. This is the Islamic section of this forum and posting this link was not wrong. I just wanted to show what quality of vichar SHias get on a regular basis. I may not agree with everything he says but sure is: it's quality and I think we should strive to give the sangat that quality of vichar! I think you ought to teach Sangat here about sikhi first, make them 'parpak' in sikhi first. Once they have indepth knowledge of sikhi, it would have been apt to make such links known/or making them subject to the lectures of other religions/sects. Muslims/Shias have enuff sites which proclaim their religion. educate their people. I wonder how many of them actually mention Guru Nanak Dev Ji or Guru Gobind Singh Ji on their website, or mention to their followers about the Universality of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the gems contained therein. Does the Sayyed, accept the divine message of the Gurus, or tell his followers to accept the teachnings of the Gurus ? We would rather let Shias mind their own business and mind our own business. 5. I doubt very much that either BabbarSher and Truthseeker have actually watched more than 15 hours of lectures since yesterday when I posted this link. Strange how people make judgements without properly investigating things. Your doubts hold true Lalleshvari. I think it much better to read about my religion, and do Vichaar based upon our modern sikh scholars, whom you more or less reject - basing your arguments upon the old manuscripts, which you seem to quote selectively. We have not made a judegment, merely pointed out to you the text of the same sources as that you use. 8. The thread is about Muharram and Imam Hussain (as) not agha Khomeini. Still the sangat would appreciate your scholarly inputs into what has been quoted at homa.org (or have the mistranslated .....persian...as this is one of your most ready arguments) 10. Educate before you criticise.If you want to criticse a scholar become a scholar yourself!!! LOL My advice, to you : Scholar Jee, use your good brain to teach the young ones here about sikhi.....once u have done that, we will let u teach about other sects, religions etc. etc. To Guv: BabbarSher wrote: Chaupa Singh Rahitnama also says that one who learns Arabic and Farsi, is a Tankhaiya and you always advocate that we as sikhs learn these languages ...... so i guess that means bhai nand lal is tankhaiya... right? & zafarnama was written in farsi... so that makes guru gobind singh ji... ? Guv I just used an indirect manner to make across my point.... LOL : man just something which I have highlighted, Wonder where you were when lalleshvari used the same Rahitnama, to proove his points on Kesh ............................;-) Cant have double standards can we ....................... ???? Now shall we take Chaupa Singh Rahitnama as it is .. on the whole or shal we separte tyhe chaff from the grains. The point Guv is that if some "scholar" has to debate, he should do it unbiased without trying to proove his "scholarly" skills and he should be consistent in his thoughts, not opportunistic. The point is to educate our young ones in sikhi ....not to proove our communciation, or scholarly skills. If I have conufused you, just send me a PM, and I will readily clarify.

What are ur views On Ayatollah Khomeini .. and how do the Shias especially Iranian Shias and the Sayed Modarresi , view him. Please do check out www.homa.org for translations of some passages of Ayatollah's book.

This site looks set to become Shia Awareness rather than Sikh Awareness. Rather than asking the young ones here to attend Gurmat lectures, do Vichar of Gurbani, inculcate teachings of Gurbaani in our daily life, ..is this what we wanna do ..attend Shia lectures.. Turkon ki sangat karai us kusangat main n karai ant ko veh narak main jaeiga He who takes part in the sangat of the Muslims is bound for hell in the end. This sangat is described a kusangat ( false assembly ) which is the opposite of sat sangat = true assembly This Rehatnama also says Musalman matrai akhiyan ein ki biswas na karai Consider Muslim as matrai ( not related ir not brotherly ) and never trust them Bhai Chaupa Singh Rehatnama says Turk nal dosti na karai atai visah na karai Tusk dai hathon pani n peevai Turk nal ral na savai Turk di sugandh ki eitbar na karai Turk ki zabaani gyan charcha sun kai mohit n hoye Do not make friends with a Muslim or trust him. Do not drink water at a Muslims's hand. Do not associate or gather with Muslims and never place reliance on a Muslim's oath. Never become influenced by the language, learning or debate skills of a Muslim Looks like Lalleshvari has already become influenced by this Shia! Now Now Lalleshvari Ji dont tell us that Turk refers to Turkish people....not iranis, turranis, arab - muslims .. Another Thing lalleshvari Ji: Chaupa Singh Rahitnama also says that one who learns Arabic and Farsi, is a Tankhaiya and you always advocate that we as sikhs learn these languages ......

Double_edge and Ideal Singh ...ur thoughts and 'hallasheri' is my lifeblood guys ...Thanks Singhs :-) Hope our views help Orchid

"two links showing that it might be possible." MIGHT ....... is the word. Its is not possible as of now....even the sites say that the IF involves almost impossible things/resources.

If you guys cant reply with an encouragining NOTE or try and help these guys ..please desist from discussing useless topics and creating controversies which lead to no conclusions !!!!

Time Travel is not possible Orchid. Stephen Hawking once said..and it is logical that is it weere possible, we would have people already visiting us..but now he wants to differ. http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/theory/ http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/kaku1-1.html Personally I think it is a waste of time. We have so little time, that we should spend it in seva of Akaal rather than wondering about Kaal. :-) Akal Sahai

Orchid: I once fell in Love. Funny thing it is, one doesnt even know when one falls in love. lol So there I was, all lovey dovey, with a spring in my feet and me so thankful to God. And then something happened, my love suddenly vanished. ...sad eh .. well yes a lot. I prayed like anything....cried, begged....I wanted her......I couldmt live without her..ohh what would happen to me ...lol. nothing ...... I felt like, you feel.......God doesnt listen to me. But really I find it funny that we as mortal beings ....with not even the capabliity of knowing what will happen the next moment start doing all permutations and combinatuions and start saying that he doesnt listen. I think I would be very happy if I had got her ....BUT then that is only a thought. It was not meant to be. God, my friend is an an optimiser. Maybe he was listening to the prayers of someone else who needed the love of that gal more than I did....and thats what God did. Maybe it was good for the gal too....good for her happiness and good for her parents and family .....who would like to marry a foolish BabbarSher lol ;-) Then again maybe God listened to me. I wanted her to be very happy in life..........and so she is :-) Comon man cheerup ..... and live life ...Akal Sahai style Akal Sahai BabbarSher Did I make sense..or am I living up to my name lol

Bhai Mani Singh Ji's JanamSaakhi

Just a note Amrit: You are being too aggressive and personal. I dont like that, I am sure you wont like me in an agressive mood as well. :-) . I had valid reasons to question your quotes, and I am doing it not for my benefit but fot clarifying things to the young readers of our forum. Your quotes only lead to more confusion, rather than clarity. Its good to quote form any place, you want to but then one should have valid arguments to support those quotes. You quote nicely but then at least ponder over them before you make them available to all the readers. As far as defination of Sehajdhari is concerned, I think it is a complete myth that Sehajdhaari can use scissors but not Ustara to cut his her hair. The aim of both is the same hair removal and doing away with the natural form given by God. Whay I asked you about Berad Trimmer is, to clarify in which section you would want to put the beard trimmer in ..Ustara or scissors ? as per your of quoted ancient texts. ----- 'Guru Ka Sikh Kesaan De Ahankaar Kar Sikhi Na Gavaaye'. ('Rahatnama Bhaayee Chaupa Singh'). Is Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji only referring to hair on the head ? Keeping Kesh doesnt make one a sikh, BUT Kesh are an essential part of Sikhi. A Sikh should not be arrogant of anything, neither Kesh, nor knowledge. He has to be humble in any case !!! You will get a detailed reply to your answers and ahy I questioned your quotations.

Lalleshvari: Your explanation, has given rise to some more questions. Athough, I have addressed some questiosn to Amrit. You have responded in a general manner, quoting Wajib Ul Araz. So I think it is apt. that you respond to the other questions I raised, in a clear and pointwise manner and hence resolve my confusion. ""The seventh section of the Wajib ul Arz (Sahajdhari Rahitnama handed to Bhai Mani SIngh) clearly says that Sahajdhari men should keep a beard (sign of manhood and nobility) and that they may trim them."" ....the younger generation can easily counter your argument by saying tha the beard is no longer considered a sign of manhood and nobility. in our modern culture. The signs of nobiltiy and manhood have changed. Please ask a girl whether she thinks Beard is a sign of manhood ? In essence the reason you are giving is either cultural or social NOT religious !! ""It seems that Sahajdhari men who cut their beard are actually commiting an offence. This makes sense as the Sahajdhari should be able to prepare himself to become keshdhari though this is not compulsory. "" ....again a confusion. You use the word 'seems' they are comitting an offence. Can you please clarify this statement ... ""One should also put this in the context of the cultural issue of bearded vs. shaven cultures. If you look at the conflict between orthodox and catholics one of the main issues of dispute was beards. The orthodox clearly said that a man should keep beard and long hair even if trimmed as a sign of manhood and respect for his creator. "" How can you claim to be respecting the creator when you are modifying it, albeit a little or some more. Whats the harm - from a religious point of view, if you have already trimmed the beard upto a the fist or more ?? ""Let's say that keeping a beard even if trimmed is the minimum a Sahajdhari man should do."" ""Again. Trimming with a beard trimmer at a setting, allows one to trim close and the look is akin to shaving. Or one can keep a stuble, so minute it hardly gives the look of a beard. Such beards are very visible in the Malwa region. "" Regarding reading gurbani ourselves I don't think there is anything wrong in that provided one has had a proper linguistic training for that. I do acknowledge the tikas of other people yet at the same time I know from experience that in many taksals theyt have stopped learning the languages and just keep on repeating the master's master's interpretation. There is absolutely nothing wrong in interpreting gurbani as long as one has learned Braj, Hindi,Urdu Panjabi, Sanskrit, Sadhu Khari and Persian (at least a good knowledge of Persian). Otherwise: NO!!! ""Lalleshvari, you are on this forum for discussion, NOT as a Judge brought in to make a categorical decison :-) Gurbaani was meant to be a Universal thing, easy to learn, digest and assimilate. It is not a puzzle. It is not a question. It is an answer to all our queries. It is a guide for us on how to attain God. I dont think it is absolutely essential to learn all the languages you specified above. It is of course always good to learn different languages. And Guru Gobind Singh Ji was highly learned and versed in many languages. BUt then we forget, whether the other Gurus were also versed in all the same languages (I dont have historical proof) BUT I would say that there would be differences in the languages the learnt ? If you have any historical info to share, would be much appreciated. What is essential would be to have good knowledge of Gurmkuhi script (for Guru Granth Sahib is written in this script) and use the Teeka of Dr. Sahib Singh (or others as per one's belief) to understand the message. (The correct prononciation and the usage of context of words is very important) The again I cannot blame a foreigner who is at a stage of his life, or due to the conditions, is not able to learn Gurmukhi. I think if he uses English transalations and follows the path prescribed by Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he will be Jeevan Mukt. Please remember Gurbaani is not a Mantar, which we have to recite like a parrot. It is the meaning of Gurbaani which we have to bring into our life. Akal Sahai

The Movie is below average. The comedy is a bit low standard. I think the best part is Sush and Sahrukh chemistry. Anyway why do they always have to a sikh gal falling for the hindu guys, and appreciating the Mona looks + wearing a cross. With a couple of serds garishly dressed up with patka like things !!!! Are they depicting relaity or are they trying to influence young minds. Just an observation