BAZ

I cant answer for "those" muslims. They have their way of looking at things and other muslims have their view. What exactly do you mean by "historical Islam" anyway? To be a Muslim one needs to believe in the 5 tenants of the faith as described by the Porphet Muhammad who said Islam is built on five pillars: bearing witness that there is no god but God and Muhammad is His prophet, establishing the prayer, giving zakat, hajj, and fasting during Ramadan. U can still believe in God and not be a Muslim obviously.

Obviosly John you dont know me very well as do some others on this board so your accusation of calling me narrow minded is baseless adn quite humorouos actually. Its not only muslims who cling to outward systems or ways to attaining God. God can't be attained through outward systems as we both know. Outward systems and practices are theer for us as a religious community to unify us and guide us in our daily living and dicipline. Sikhism has its outward system and so does Islam and they are beneficial for certain things. But ofcourse it doesn stop there. I completely agree with your last paragraph by the way.

Actually I just found and read through some sources on this matter of the "incident" regarding Bibi Fatimah and the whole Fadak affair. I guess Javanmard this looking at these events from a Shia perspective. There is also a Sunni perpective which doesnt accept many of the accusations leveled against Abu Bakr and Umar and it can be found in the following 2 links if anyone cares to read through it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fadak and http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/dbeliefs/slegend_umar.htm (got this link from the previous Wikipedia link although some of what is in the other sections of the website sounds like a bit of baqwaas but hey u cant throw the baby out with the bathwater hunna)

My understand has always been that Wahabis and Naqshbandis really dont see eye to eye. I would even say that Wahabis consider them to be a "deviant sect" just for the fact that they are sufi.

John I see where you are coming from. For muslims who want to use the word "kaafir" to build a barrier between "us" and "them" will end up doing so because its the lower nature of man to do such things. People have always loved using religion as a tool to feed their egos. You said that Muslim saints "do not term people of other faiths as Kaffir as they are interested in the praise of Allah." Well you can't term a faith as kaafir. Faith is faith. The word kaafir comes from the word kufr (unbelief). In one way I must be a kaafir looking at it from a Sikh standpoint because I choose to remain muslim. There must be a level of unbelief in me towards the Sikh faith. According to some muslims I must have (and I have been told) that there is a degree of kufr in my heart when it comes to Islam because I dont always believe the way some of them believe. In some ways the term "Kaafir" is black and white when it comes to worldly matters (marriage, who pays zakat and who pays jizya etc). But in a more important spiritual way the whole matter is filled with degrees of grey between the black and white. At some level we all have kufr in our hearts and the purpose of any religion is to eradicate the kufr within and fill it with the light of belief.

Who and what exactly are the "Paatrey" in the Sikh community?

Is there an article on this on some news website? I tried searching on BBC but couldnt find anything there.

"Kaafir" generally means "unbeliever". In the Quran people who are unbelievers are those who do not believe in the authenticity of the Quran or the prophethood of Muhammad. This does not mean that they don't believe in God in some form or another. In the Quranic chapter "Kaafirun" it says the following: 1. Say : O ye that reject Faith! 2. I worship not that which ye worship, 3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, 5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6. To you be your Way, and to me mine. This surah was refering to the pagan tribes of Arabia who had many gods which they worshipped. I believe this is a Meccan Surah (verse from the time when muslims were a minority living in Mecca before they migrated to Medina after being persecuted by the pagan majority in Mecca). "Infidel" is one translation of the word "Kaafir" but so is "non-believer" but as you can see both english words have a different feel to them. Infidel is a harsher word. These days the word "Kaafir" is used by extremist muslims like a swear word and among many converts and forward thinking muslims this word has become a pain in the you know what.

Sat Sri Akal Vijaydeep Singh Ji, There is a hadith (saying of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH) that says that the muslims will be divided in 73 sects and all but one is on the right path. Now this can be interpreted by people in a few ways. Usually each sect such as Sunni or Shia will claim that the 1 sect that is on the right path is their sect but I think this hadith has a much deeper meaning. The same hadith also says that the muslim will have more sects than the Christians and the Jews so this hadith is also meant to be humbling for muslims so they cant claim to be better because they have less sects when they dont.

Javanmard paaji, according to what you have said Sheikh Farid could not be considered a real muslim either as he was a Sunni or the Hanafi school (as well as a Chishti Sufi).

LOL good on you! But are you sure that Sikhism doesnt have Islamic and Hindu influences in it? Usually a new religion has aspects of the surrounding religions in it... doesnt make it any less of a religion in my eyes (these things could also be considered universal truths). I know that in Islam you can find overlapping of Judaism and Christianity. In Christianity you find overlapping of Judaism.

Hope this day is filled with many blessings for you all

OMG! LOL. This is soooooooooooo stupid. Political correctness has gone deep into the realm of stupidity. I have to admit though I do know some very stupid muslims... I know a "uncle" who sawed the cross off the King in a chess set he bought. I know of another uncle who bought a toy plastic farm for his kid and threw the pigs out. My daughter however loves pigs for some reason. He favourite animal at the zoo is a black pot bellied pig and she always pets it when she sees it. Her favourite toy is a fluffy pink pig which grunts and wiggles his nose. So we are not supposed to eat the animal but its getting stupid when piggy banks are banned! LOL.

Then obviously his fasting is not helping because it is not being done with the right intention. Fasting is a tool that is there to use for self improvement. It is up to the individual how they choose to use that tool or even if they choose to use it at all. One month of fasting wont get rid of the 5 evils but that month of fasting is there to HELP get rid of those 5 evils by self dicipline and devotion to God. I have met plenty of Singhs with full beards who talk filth and act shamefully. Their 5 Ks are having about as much effect on their character as fasting might be having on that muslim guy who was talking flith at your work. First of all man is weak and makes mistakes and if fasting or an outward reminder (such as a kara, kesh, rosary etc) remind an individual where their thoughts, words and actions should be then these tools are working. The person has corrected their mistake and hopefully will become more aware of what they think, say or do in the future. If an individual is doing an religious act without the right intention then it becomes an empty ritual and useless no matter what the ritual is and which religion it is from. Fasting isnt just not eating or drinking during the day. Read through that link I posted and it will outline fasting for what it really is. Fasting and prayers are tools to train the heart and mind to keep their attention on God. They are their to help build that relationship with God. There are no worldly benefits to fasting at all... you give and give and give of yourself. You practice self control and restraint and remembrance of God. Think of it as going to the gym and having a very intense workout. That workout is pointless if you eat the wrong thigs and get into bad habits after it. It is there to strengthen the heart and mind. After this spritual "workout" one should try harder to live a better life and take the lessons learnt in fasting with them through the rest of the year. Fasting for me is a gift in self improvement and I look forward to it every year.

Now have a look at it from the other side and see the value of fasting by those who fast: http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed02.htm I for one am very VERY greatful for this month of fasting as it helps me as a muslim to get my mind and heart on track. If it is looked at as an intense spiritual workout then it is beneficial. The good habits that are strengthened through the month of fasting can be implimented throughout the year. Fasting doesnt feed my ego at all and I dont see how the author can say such a thing when he has not fasted himself. Infact I would say that fasting done with the right intention works at killing ones ego because you become more aware of your spiritual and mental weaknesses during the fast. Guru Nanak says: "Penance, fasting, austerity and alms-giving are inferior to 'The Truth'; right action is superior to all.".. and he is absolutely right but I dont think this statement nullifies fasting. Even Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that right action is better than prayer and as you know the 5 times daily prayer is a pillar of Islam.