shaheediyan

This forum is funny, when you post something serious, the jokes don't stop, try and post something humorous and people turn serious!

As we are on a serious vibe, I like veer Kam's answer, but I think more practically, the shastar probably represent the armoury of the Gur-ghar, for the defence of the Guru Ji, sangat and Gurdwara.

I thought the original response was pretty funny (ironically)!

Mangla-charan of Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji Maharaj - to all his preceding forms:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Salok.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One God (Creator). Attained - through The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Āḏ gur▫e namah.
I bow and give salutation to the primal Guru (Guru Nanak Dev Ji).

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Jugāḏ gur▫e namah.
I bow and give salutation to the continuing Guru (Guru Angad Dev Ji).

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥
Saṯgur▫e namah.
I bow and give salutation to the true Guru (Guru Amardas Ji).

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥੧॥
Sarī gurḏev▫e namah. ||1||
I bow and give salutation to the teacher divine (Guru Ramdas Ji – Gur-pita). ||1||

Budda dal is a seperate issue, I am not a nominated representative, nor do I claim to be an expert on the inner issues. No organisation today is without problems, Budda Dal is not exempt, but Budda Dal and Dal Panth in general, still hold much value in terms of knowledge and lifestyle of many of its members.

As I said, lets focus on ourselves and those around us at localised level and try and help each other intelligently at a national/international level i.e. share valuable/productive knowledge/resources. No point moaning about life or begging others for help, Shamshere Pita has made you Sardaars, about time people started taking some pride and seeing the value in teh health, faith, history and opportunity they have (esp in the west) and work hard to become real Singhs, and real Men for that matter.

But more importantly (and not at the expense of the other) we should make full effort towards living a true Gursikh jeevan - with Amritvela, Simran, Kirtan, Paat, Seva, Sangat, Khoj, Vichaar, Parchaar being part of our daily routine. This is the most powerful tool to be utilised in changing a quom. We need to get away from teh mindest that 'others' will do it i.e. send kids off to Gurdwara for the weekend for 2nd rate education (sorry to say). The next thing to tackle is the quality of Sikhi and resources in our Gurdwarai.

"I wonder if there is some guide to the different types of pull ups and what muscles they work? i.e. The wider ones with hands over the bar, the ones with the hands together under the bar etc.?"

I've been told they tell you all the science in their DVD, you can also get a hoodie and t-shirt for inspiration :-)

http://www.barstarzz.com/store

I personally think Mallakhamb is better, it is much more difficult and develops many wrestling/grappling muscles and movements. It also works the legs, something which these guys totally omit. Only problem is getting a cheap Tescos version of the Pole - and finding place to put it, lol.

The Tai Chi Chuan people in China also have a version where they use bars to hold certain combat postures.

All interesting stuff. The human mind pretty much works the same away all over the world!

Many 3HOs are actually trying to learn puratan traditions. There are many 3HOs learning raag kirtan, even studying it at under-graduate level. There are also 3HOs learning Shastar Vidya, after having tried their hand at gatka for a few years. They do actually mix with Punjabis - just at a more intellectual level. You just have odd stuck up exceptions here and there. The truth is, now that they are becoming more proficient in Punjabi and learning more about Sikhi, they need Punjabis more than ever. I have met some exceptional 3HOs who have even taken santhia seriously, and can recite a mean Jap-Ji Sahib - which would be quite exceptable at any santhia taksal.

One guy I would recommend visiting is Karta Singh in France - he is the main guy 3HO in mainland Europe, Shiv Charan being the UK equivalent. Karta is a genuinely cool guy who has time for everyone and runs a really cool self sustaining centre in the French Alps located above a beautiful ravine, they grow their own food and everything!

Try his laughter Yoga and Jaap Sahib bhangra if you dare!

But on another note, they are not diseased with the caste thing, thats for sure... other than that, what is more perfect for a yogi than another yogi!

Well said N30, I agree with you and again confirm 1st hand, that this disease affects every single part of the Panth - no one is exempt, I could tell you some stories that would shock, but there is no point - what I have seen and heard has simply confirmed how maya even engulfs that place which people think is pure.

I would marry my daughter to a (true) Singh - irrelevant of the jaath. I am one of the lucky ones - my mother even though hailing from Punjab proper (Samrava), has never discriminated in her actions - she has friends who are Muslims, Hindus, Africans, let alone from all jaath paath including our Churai, Chumaar, Shimbai etc etc. The only women that annoy her are overly zealous Indian Jehovas Witnesses.

I also have seen many times - AKJ will only marry within their own jaath, let alone jathaa. Same is true for other big shouters of equality i.e. Radao Swamis, I have seen u-turns on the core of their beliefs too.

N30 - Sardar Jassa Singh Aluvalia was a Kalaal - yet was raised by Mata Sundri Ji and eventually became Panth Patshah - things were not always one jaath orientated.

We can only change ourselves (and that is the hardest part), and in doing so, hope to involintarily influence those around us. That in it self would be a huge achievement.

Here is the earlier part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6zrqRztACg...feature=related

Thanks for this Dalsingh Ji.

I guess our tribalist brothers will call this a 'piece of propoganda'.

Well I can tell you first hand that its not. I have seen this crap with my own eyes.

Then people wonder and cry about why so many people in Punjab are going to Deras or Churches, I for one don't judge them for changing hats, only we are to blame.

You talk about duniyaavi experience, yet you seem to be the one somewhat lacking.

Being (and having been) involved in different aspects of Sikhi over the years in the UK, I can tell you that Darshan Singh has quite a scary following. His admirers mainly stem from the 50+ generation, although there are many youth that are influenced to, you seme them frequent different Sikh forums all the time. If I am not wrong, when you joined us, you were somewhat partial to Darshans thoughts yourself with doubts of Guru Gobind Singhs bani.

To get a small indication, do a search and check out the various Sikh organisations in the UK that attended the recent (meeting) in Cross Roads Gurwara in Coventry.

Dalsingh, you spoke of intelligence blah blah, well here you go, whilst all you proud non-pc clever cloggs are sharing your thoughts over Public forums, the little friends of your enemies are carefully watching and reporting back to their Masters, who in turn will use the this openly available Public hate (I am not talking about you in most cases) to further their hateful/fanatic causes, whatever guise they may take.

From a panthic perspective, they have encouraged and promoted the use of tanti saaj, specifically sponsoring great artists such as Surjit Singh Ji Namdhari to learn and bring back the sarangi vidya (at high level) to Bhaini Sahib. They have also encouraged and supported many other classical singers and musicians, and are highly talented themself.

I beleive they also introduced and promoted classical dancing amongst teh Namdhari men. Would be great if they also promoted and supported Shastar Vidya, as I reckon the classical dancers would make the most talented fighters!

I thought all Hadiths agree that Muhammed Sahib used to be an avid practitioner of Dhikr (Zhikr)?

I don't think correct logic and sharda are contradictory.

Repeating a complete shabd or Gur/Mool Mantre is 100% logic. How does one revise for an exam - by repitition - we engrain gurbani on our mind through repitition - next thing to do is vichaar and understand it.

Repeating Gods name - keeps us God focused - and that focus affects all our thoughts, decisions and actions - logic.

Repeating bani enables us to memorise it - hence negating the use of numerous gutke when quoting or pothi when doing kirtan - logic.

In my view are Guru's were completely logical - it is for their supreme and pure logic that I have sharda.

No Tony, you are right. Using Singh Sabha statistics, authors and books, you have disproved traditional history yet again.

That our Panth is now in the pathetic state it is, removed of its martial, linguistic, artistic, progressive, musical, mystical, scholarly, charitable traditions (to name but a few) is obvioulsy no fault of Singh Sabha and their child, SGPC...

Yet, before Singh Sabha manifested - nearly all these traditions were intact....? Thankfully, some have survived, but no thanks to the reformists - luckily the pre-reformists traditions respected and kept their treasures alive, which are now making a comeback in many areas, again no thanks to the reformists. May be we need to do another Mahant hunt, and do away with all Singh Sahba/SGPC and complete the circle.... we all know history works in cycles...

You will be shocked to discover that it is not only one fairytale snaatn website which resents some of the outcomes of the reformist movement, in fact, most traditional orders have gripes with the reformists in one shape or another.

Saying that, I have never disputed Singh Sabha has good intentions, but good intentions are not free of bias, influece and manmat - their 'zeal' led to the loss of much of our Sikh culture. There were also some stars amongst the movement who I personally have great respect for like Prof Sahib Singh irrelevant of some differences on opinion.

What couldn't be changed by SS was the massive knowledge Seva Panthi/Nirmalai/Udasis had on mystical Hindu/Islamic schools - which gave them an olive branch to reach out to so many other groups, where as Singh Sabha parchaar was more along the lines of 'Sikhi' is the only way - and showing how other paths were lowly/incorrect. It is common sense who's parchaar was going to be more receptive.

All that being said, I am always open to the truth, so here is your chance, give me the names of some neutral/unbiased literature re Singh Sabha parchaar amongst non-Sikhs and I promise to read it.

The chunj was an evolution in the Ramgharia Misl when the British banned Shastar after the 2nd Anglo Sikh war, the remnants of Mahara Ranjit Singhs Ramgharia Brigade adopted the practice of hardened chunjs on their Dastaar in replacement of the dhumalla shastar. This highly effective weapon could still be used to take out someone eyes from a low (warrior) stance in hand to hand combat. Sadly, after these Sikhs later migrated to East Africa, the chunj became more an identity symbol/fashion and the original militaristic meaning was lost.

There are still some hardcore Ramgharia Warriors who understand the meaning of and carry on the puratan rvaaj and hold the vidya to utilise their chunj in life and death scenarios...

Dhan Dhan Ramgharia Khalsa di Chunj!

A rare photo of the now 'secret and original' Ramgharia Warrior order that still exists today...

Nice!

Lets not forget that Muslim Rababis and Dhadis performed in each and every Gurus darbar, and were Hazuri Raagis at Harimandhir Sahib up until parition, with the curtain finally falling in the early 1960's when when Sikhs all of a sudden discovered 'Gurmat'!

These Rababis and Dhadis also did Gurbani and ithihaasik parchaar.

Why stop there, just get me banned from the whole Panth!

I've seen many grounds for 'Hindu' accusations, but never one on the grounds of use of language. Thanks for filling that niche Amardeep Ji.

The main issue as far I have seen, was land availbality and price. In the US and CA where you have many successful Punjabi farmers, land was largely owned by the Govt and was (still is) plentiful and cheap. In the UK land has always been largely owned privately, hence scarce, plus prices have always been comparitvely expensive compared to the rest of the world.

Other than that, farming is not easy. As mentioned, one would have had to get used to the difference in weather, season, crop, land management, water irrigation etc etc. US and CA climate more closely resembled Punjab, hence easier adaption. Other than that - UK had a massive industry with plenty of jobs available - the 9-5 plus overtime life was much more of a luxury than the 7 day a week hard labour farming life.

Main reason again was land availability and price IMHO.

"u mean "their" don't you?"

Do you need to ask? LOl.

Yes you are right to a degree, but the age range of the girls was varied, not just 12. It was more a matter of opportunity.
The apnay I speak of also didn't pay much attention to age, it was common for them to intice and go with school girls.

Another thing to consider if talking about 'communities' is the massive sex industry in India, prob the biggest in the world with high aids %. This industry is famous for grooming and kidnapping children to feed the gigantic demand, sadly, most are orphans or from very poor families, the most vulnerable.

Another thing re your point is that apnay are not just promiscious, they target (or at least used) white girls. At the same time I have grown up seeing a mentality in certain jaaths that girls from lower castes are easy game, and it is their purpose to entertain the higher castes. This sick attitude still exists in Punjab and UK today amongst certain sections of the 'higher castes'. This is no different to pk targeting non pk.

Re the lack of example re apnay - do we not run the drug and pimping trade in BC?

The biggest shame of it is the fact the we no longer have respect for apnian anymore (that doesn't justify targeting others) our girls are treated like common whores up by our own folk up and down the country, egged on by our Great portrayel of them on Brit Asia, and we have the audacity to complain if outsiders take advantage....

As of late, one which is perfectly at home here :-)

“The secret of eternal youth is arrested development."

Alice Roosevelt Longworth, US author (1884-1980)

Or history is very new. Nearly all is verified by independant sources (non-Sikh historians/authorities) of that time. Plus the location of most important events are commemorated with a Guru Ghar built on that site (with memorobilia).

So I don't really see the need for archaeological digs.... many artifacts are held by private families to this day - that outside one can get a metal detector and search for rusted weapons at the battlefields of Anandpur Sahib etc if they really want to... :-)

Sex with a child is a punishable crime according to Prem Sumarg.
It is also akin to rape/abuse in most cultures in the world so does not need Sikhi to highlight it.
Age for marriage is a cultural issue - in the Punjabi Sikh culture until the last few decades, Sikhs have generally been married around the age of 18 in my research. Although my grandparents were married younger. In my opinion it is good for people to get married early, stops one making mistakes and allows a couple to grow up together (mentally) and be closer/stronger later in life with as they have been friends since childhood.

My 2 paisa.

All my mums side of the family live in Edmonton. There has been a massive influx of BC Sikhs to Alberta due to economic reasons as well as people getting away form the gandh gang culture, and sad in some cases, bringing it with them.

Alberta seems to be an excellent place for business/opportunity etc. There is a massive Sikh population in Edmonton now (and Calgary - which is where the Unis are I think).

Prices have gone up in recent years - but I think you can still buy a nice detached 3/4 bedroom house with garage etc in a decent neighbourhood for around £200k. Many people apply for the land lottery (to buy a land parcel) and build new houses to their own spec - this works out cheaper. All my Massers, Mamai etc have done this.

Food, clothes, Fuel etc is cheaper than the UK, but then on average, salaries across most industries pay less than here and you get less annual leave (although not quite as pathetic as US).

Toronto is more cosmopolitan and caters more for Finance sector etc also with a big Sikh population.

Grass always look greener on the other side - but people and problems are same everywhere. CA is more traditional than UK (in bad ways as well as good) due to it having a much bigger influx of freshies - there sharaab culture is not anywhere near as big as in the UK.

Personally - in CA, have always found Nova Scotia very appealing for a number of reasons (except the weather lol). Their local Gurdwara even has a Gora Singh Pardhaan :-)

Dalsingh, Tony is just a modern day Sucha Nand, he would have no problem with the removal of evil child Muslims.

Tony, me having respect for everyday people making a choice to improve their lives does not make me dhimmi.

You however clearly remain a Nazi. It wouldn't surprise me if you were one these pathetic supporters of the BNP and EDL, hoping these Knights in shining armour will rid your adopted country of the Malech, as you can't personally do much to help the cause yourself except for typing a few hate posts in the safety of your armchair whenever you see an opportunity. Pathetic. I bet if it ever came down to the crunch, loud mouthed internet Ninjas like you (clearly devoid of any of Gurus mat and pyaar) would be 1st to stick a pakistani flag outside your house.