amardeep

Thanks for the example. There is a difference between the meaning of a Word, and the meaning of a sentence. The meaning of a Word can be looked at through a dictionary, but to understand the meaning of the Whole sentence you will have to look at the context in which the Words appear in (including grammar etc). The understanding and use of vedantic terminology is a must when trying to understand Gurbani - and then surely the Guru in his creativity will play with some Words in some shabads and adapt/broaden the meaning. But the root meaning of the Words will always remain the same. That's why I say, there is no such case where red suddenly means blue. .. And the nirmales, udasis and sewapanthis have been doing this for centuries and remained consistent through out even though they have also had their fair share of debates on interpretation. But it is wrong to say that their interpretation is wrong and unlike Gurbani.

In terms of vedant - Gurbani is replete with Words that originate from the sophisticated terminology of Vedanta. Jeev, Brahm, Atma, Maya, Prakrit, Budh, maya, karma, sansara, mukti, chit are all vedantic terms. If one wants to know what the meaning of these Words are, you will have to look up the meanings in vedantic writings and literature. That's what the samprdayas have done since the 18th Century. If you believe these Words have a different meaning in Gurbani then please provide some examples of how so.

Yes. We agree. Gurbani adds new layers to existing Words. But it does'nt cancel old meanings. If that was the case, Gurbani would have been followed by a dictionary so that one knows the new meanings of the Words. "ONE Fundamental Rule of SGGS is all meaning of words should be found from SGGS" - > when was this rule made and where do you have this rule from? By the way, could you please provide one example of wrong arths from the samprdayas and also provide the real arth ?

Wow. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing

No I don’t think so. They added more depth and layers to many words but they didn change the meaning of words such that red suddenly meant blue and tree suddenly meant sun. Nothing of that sort happened

Angy can you provide some examples of the wrong arths of the sampradayas ? And also the right ones

Awesome. Good stuff

Apart from the beautiful poetry then what is the purpose/ message of this story? Is it to be understood as a break in between the many charitars with some avatar Ustat ? An appreciation of beauty amidst the drama of the world ?

In general I think we need to widen our understanding of the term “rajniti”. I think it’s wider than “politics” and “governance” as it is usually understood. Kavi Sainapat uses the word in his Chanakya niti translation (Bahu shaastra avilok kai sundar bachan nikaar, Raajniti sanbuuh ko barnan karo bithaar). Yet his book doesn’t deal with politics the way we would classify a book on politics today. It is more about psychology, ethics, schrewdness, being aware, being sceptical etc. You don’t learn governance through it, but rather how to be a sovereign individual. And I think this is the understanding of rajniti at the time of Maharaj and it is in this light we should see the Charitro Pakhyan - a book on sovereignty rather than a book on politics/governance only. Politics is just one ang of Rajniti which is a much wider term than what you have in the English language. Just some thoughts after going through the Chanakya in recent months. I have bought 3-4 different punjabi translations of it that I will go through in the next few months to better understand the context of this kind of writings- which the Charitro Pakhyan is most likely a part of.

Durgas forces

Nihangs are mentioned as the warriors of Durga in one of the Chandi banis in Dasam Granth. Current day nihangs use this reference to trace their history back into primordial time.

Singh the above does'nt allude to "kill the non-Sikhs" as per original post. The second shabad has an interesting uthanka behind it regarding a Mughal commander from Lahore that went out to kill Guru Arjan. He died on the way and then Maharaj composed the shabad. The Faridkot Tika links the shabad with this incident but interprets the whole shabad in an esoteric way.

Great good find !. I’ve got the Arabian nights in 6 volumes, will begin to read it shortly. I think the Panch Tantra might be a even closer sibling to the Charitro Pakhyan and we know through manuscript evidence that this was translated in the Guru Darbaar and thereby familiar to the Sikhs

I think I’ve found the sakhi in the Sri Suraj Prakash. I’ll get back to you

thanks for sharing. Maybe the Gurbilas Patshahi 6 talks about the funeral - I remember it talking about the final battle between him and Maharaj - pure bir ras and chivalry

Awesome. Might travel to India soon, I will definately visit

Are you for real ? It is the main catalyst event in the life of Guru Nanak. The event that elevated Maharaj from a pure devotee to a world guru. The importance was such that it was immortalised by all Janam Sakhi writers - whether punjabi or braj - and can even be found indirectly in the Persian writings of Bhai Nand Lal.

Thanks for sharing. Beautiful. I think there is much history to the Sodhis and Bedis that needs to be investigated further. They appear to have had tremendous influence in the pre-British period and contributed significantly to the Khalsa cause and heritage. If youve come across any book that deals with their history please let me know. I was blesssed to talk to a Sodhi from Anandpur once - he told me that there were many pothia and granths running in their family possessions for generations.

I think he does yes

The Buddha dal steek ? A friend of mine has a saroop of Sarbloh Granth at home. He does full Prakash as if it was Guru Granth Sahib.

If I remember it correctly both the Chibbar writers quote this verse in a context of the Khalsa having to destroy their enemies. Also followed by the Sagal malech karo ranghata

I see it as quite a political charitar 1) It talks about people behaving disgusting in a holy place 2) symbolically you can talk about a transfer of power - the Sikhs snatching the turbans from the Hindus could be regarded as a way of elevating the tisra panth over the Hindus. The Sikhs are the new people on the scene not to be reckoned with 3) in relation to the main story it can talk about how inappropriate things are happening even in places you would not expect such filthy behaviour. (Ie. A rani trying to seduce her step -son in the royal palace). The Hindus are humiliated as their turbans - symbols of honour - have Been taken away due to their own actions. Also peeing in water could be a representation of impurifying what is pure. The Hindus impuryfing their own religion means that the Sikhs are now in control.

Apart from the Anup Kaur tales earlier on, this charitar is also said by anti-dasam nindaks to relate to Guru Gobind Singh himself. They often use it to proove the CP not being Bani as “why would the Guru order the Sikhs to steal turbans from people”. It will be interesting to study it further

Wonderful initiative. Thanks for sharing with us

Exactly. When I said middle eastern I meant the religions originating from there