amardeep

38 minutes ago, angy15 said:

If we read and understand we will get to know their is rule working you may call it principle.

Just like Prof Sahib Singh found out their is a Grammar working throughout .

To understand Rule/Principle  lets see two different meaning of word Jup  in Gurbani

Accepted form

Jup : Imbibe/Understand (Vicharna)

ਆਜੁ ਕਾਲਿ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਪਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਈ ਹੇ ॥੫॥

O mortal, thou shall die today or tomorrow.imbibe the philosophy of Guru  in your  mind.

Rejected form

ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜਮ ਥਾਕੀ ਹਠਿ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
Jap ṯap kar kar sanjam thākī haṯẖ nigrahi nahī pā▫ī▫ai.
Practicing intensive meditation, chanting and self-discipline, people have grown weary; stubbornly practicing these rituals, they still have not found Him.

Understanding/Meaning  of the word Jup is coming  from SGGS itself and  the Rule(Accepted/Rejected)  for the word Jup will be consistent throughout SGGS.

 

 

 

Thanks for the example. There is a difference between the meaning of a Word, and the meaning of a sentence. The meaning of a Word can be looked at through a dictionary, but to understand the meaning of the Whole sentence you will have to look at the context in which the Words appear in (including grammar etc). The understanding and use of vedantic terminology is a must when trying to understand Gurbani - and then surely the Guru in his creativity will play with some Words in some shabads and adapt/broaden the meaning. But the root meaning of the Words will always remain the same. That's why I say, there is no such case where red suddenly means blue. .. And the nirmales, udasis and sewapanthis have been doing this for centuries and remained consistent through out even though they have also had their fair share of debates on interpretation.  But it is wrong to say that their interpretation is wrong and unlike Gurbani.

In terms of vedant - Gurbani is replete with Words that originate from the sophisticated terminology of Vedanta. Jeev, Brahm, Atma, Maya, Prakrit, Budh, maya, karma, sansara, mukti, chit are all vedantic terms. If one wants to know what the meaning of these Words are, you will have to look up the meanings in vedantic writings and literature. That's what the samprdayas have done since the 18th Century.  If you believe these Words have a different meaning in Gurbani then please provide some examples of how so.

Yes. We agree. Gurbani adds new layers to existing Words. But it does'nt cancel old meanings. If that was the case, Gurbani would have been followed by a dictionary so that one knows the new meanings of the Words.

"ONE Fundamental Rule of SGGS is all meaning of words should be found from SGGS"  - > when was this rule made and where do you have this rule from?

By the way, could you please provide one example of wrong arths from the samprdayas and also provide the real arth ?

Wow. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing 

2 hours ago, angy15 said:

Veerji do you believe that our Gurus had redefined common words  that were used in their time .

No I don’t think so. They added more depth and layers to many words but they didn change the meaning of words such that red suddenly meant blue and tree suddenly meant sun. Nothing of that sort happened 

22 hours ago, angy15 said:

Sikhi which we see today is not what our Gurus taught .Its distorted ,corrupted and Missionary and other Scholars are trying to clean up the mess.

Yes they are  Samparadas  worst nightmare.They are going to make Sampardas non existent. 

Saparadas have different ideology which is vedantic influenced .They interpret the meaning of gurbani using Vedantic  dictionary .Infact when we compare the Samparads interpretation and Hindu practices  their is so much similarities .Many of Hindu scholar in India call it fifth Ved .Thats  the reason we can see so many rituals in our Gurudwaras.

 

Angy can you provide some examples of the wrong arths of the sampradayas ? And also the right ones

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

I want to share these similarities betweeen Arabian nights and Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth:

1 - A description of women as fair as the moon

2 - Traders being commonly used as characters

3 - Says jewellers are not to be trusted

4 - in one story, the Queen is fearful that the King being unable to produce a child will end the royal dynasty, so she moves to get herself pregnant and has the child announced as the Kings own

5 - In one story, a man is told that his friend wanst to castrate him

6 - A place between two rivers also features as the setting for stories

7 - a wide variety of places is used from Egypt all the way to China

8 - the story where the man climbs the tree and sees his wife canoodling with her lover at the bottom

9 - the status of characters frequently involves Caliphs, Qazis, and Wazirs...

10 - there is a man mentioned in whose city the people especially women, throng the the castle for a glimpse of his beauty

Awesome. Good stuff 

Apart from the beautiful poetry then what is the purpose/ message of this story? Is it to be understood as a break in between the many charitars with some avatar Ustat ? An appreciation of beauty amidst the drama of the world ?

In general I think we need to widen our understanding of the term “rajniti”. I think it’s wider than “politics” and “governance” as it is usually understood. Kavi Sainapat uses the word in his Chanakya niti translation (Bahu shaastra avilok kai sundar bachan nikaar, Raajniti sanbuuh ko barnan karo bithaar). Yet his book doesn’t deal with politics the way we would classify a book on politics today. It is more about psychology, ethics, schrewdness, being aware, being sceptical etc. You don’t learn governance through it, but rather how to be a sovereign individual.  And I think this is the understanding of rajniti at the time of Maharaj and it is in this light we should see the Charitro Pakhyan - a book on sovereignty rather than a book on politics/governance only.  Politics is just one ang of Rajniti which is a much wider term than what you have in the English language. Just some thoughts after going through the Chanakya in recent months. I have bought 3-4 different punjabi translations of it that I will go through in the next few months to better understand the context of this kind of writings- which the Charitro Pakhyan is most likely a part of.

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Warriors of Durga jee or the warriors who sprung out of the mat (made of lion's skin) of Rikhi Samund jee to protect her (along with Sri Dusht Daman jee)?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Durgas forces

Singh the above does'nt allude to "kill the non-Sikhs" as per original post.

The second shabad has an interesting uthanka behind it regarding a Mughal commander from Lahore that went out to kill Guru Arjan. He died on the way and then Maharaj composed the shabad. The Faridkot Tika links the shabad with this incident but interprets the whole shabad in an esoteric way.

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

Found a mention of an alternative text in Persian based on Arabian Nights (page 13) :

Great good find !. I’ve got the Arabian nights in 6 volumes, will begin to read it shortly.  I think the Panch Tantra might be a even closer sibling to the Charitro Pakhyan and we know through manuscript evidence that this was translated in the Guru Darbaar and thereby familiar to the Sikhs 

thanks for sharing. Maybe the Gurbilas Patshahi 6 talks about the funeral - I remember it talking about the final battle between him and Maharaj - pure bir ras and chivalry

33 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

If you go to Sri Anandpur Sahib you can go and see the Sodhis Qila. it is truly impressive. I never went this year but have mislaid my photos from when I went about 8 years ago.

Awesome. Might travel to India soon, I will definately visit 

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

What  does it matter whether Guru Nanak spent 3 days   merged inside  the  the river or  rested across the other side planning his next udasi  etc . What is their for you to learn?

 

 

Are you for real ? It is the main catalyst event in the life of Guru Nanak. The event that elevated Maharaj from a pure devotee to a world guru. The importance was such that it was immortalised by all Janam Sakhi writers - whether punjabi or braj - and can even be found indirectly in the Persian writings of Bhai Nand Lal. 

Thanks for sharing. Beautiful.  I think there is much history to the Sodhis and Bedis that needs to be investigated further. They appear to have had tremendous influence in the pre-British period and contributed significantly to the Khalsa cause and heritage. If youve come across any book that deals with their history please let me know. I was blesssed to talk to a Sodhi from Anandpur once - he told me that there were many pothia and granths running in their family possessions for generations. 

41 minutes ago, Persuitoflight said:

Yes, The Budha Dal Steek.

Thats what i wanted to know. Does he also takes a Hukamnama Sahib on daily basis?

I think he does yes 

4 minutes ago, Persuitoflight said:

I just got the Pothi sahib of Shri Sarbloh Granth Sahib ji. Is there any specific Maryada to keep it at home? 

The Buddha dal steek ? 

A friend of mine has a saroop of Sarbloh Granth at home. He does full Prakash as if it was Guru Granth Sahib. 

I see it as quite a political charitar 

1) It talks about people behaving disgusting in a holy place 

2) symbolically you can talk about a transfer of power - the Sikhs snatching the turbans from the Hindus could be regarded as a way of elevating the tisra panth over the Hindus.   The Sikhs are the new people on the scene not to be reckoned with  

3) in relation to the main story it can talk about how inappropriate things are happening even in places you would not expect such filthy behaviour. (Ie. A rani trying to seduce her step -son in the royal palace).  The Hindus are humiliated as their turbans - symbols of honour  - have Been taken away due to their own actions. 

Also peeing in water could be a representation of impurifying what is pure. The Hindus impuryfing their own religion means that the Sikhs are now in control.  

Apart from the Anup Kaur tales earlier on, this charitar is also said by anti-dasam nindaks to relate to Guru Gobind Singh himself.  They often use it to proove the CP not being Bani as “why would the Guru order the Sikhs to steal turbans from people”. It will be interesting to study it further 

Wonderful initiative. Thanks for sharing with us 

7 hours ago, tva prasad said:

I think it is a western influence. Missionaries that are influenced by western science, "logic", etc. always promote single scripture, one rehit maryada, and stuff. They don't understand the importance of sampardas, etc. 

Exactly. When I said middle eastern I meant the religions originating from there