amardeep

8 hours ago, starchpagg47 said:

https://www.manglacharan.com/home/call-to-arms-by-guru-gobind-singh-ji

They should go buy Bangles||

 

ਯਾਂਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਸੁਨੀਅਹਿ । ਆਯੁਧ ਧਰਿਬੇ ਉਤੱਮ ਗੁਨੀਅਹਿ ।

The Guru then said to his Sikhs, "All of the Khalsa should listen [to this directive], carrying weapons is the highest action.

 

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸ ਬਿਨ ਪਾਉ ਲਖਹੁ ਨਰ । ਕੇਸ ਧਰੇ ਤਬਿ ਆਧੋ ਲਖਿ ਉਰ ।।੮।।

Those men who do not have Kesh [unshorn hair] or Shastars [weapons], do not recognize those men as full men. Those who have Kesh [unshorn hair], recognize those as half-men.

 

ਕੇਸ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਜਬਿ ਦੋਨਹੁਂ ਧਾਰੇ । ਤਬਿ ਨਰੁ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੇ ।

Those who have adorned themselves with Kesh [unshorn hair] and Shastar [weapons], those men have attained their full form."

 

ਕਮਰ ਕਸੇ ਬਿਨ ਜੋ ਸਿਖ ਜਾਇ । ਤਿਸ ਪਰ ਰੁਖ ਨਹਿ ਕਰੈਂ ਕਦਾਇ ।।੧੦।।

Those Sikhs who went towards the Guru without wearing a Kamarkasa [waist band which holds weapons], the Guru would never look towards them.

 

 

Simple fact is, We're gonna have weapons because they are Sargun Form of Devi||

All Weapons are Legal, As They Are Sacred||

 

It is important to note also that the concept of shastardhari and resistance in sikhi is broader than solely carrying and fighting with weapons. There is also the jeeb Kharag (resistance through speaking against tyranny) and gian kharag (using knowledge to resist tyranny) as exemplified through the chaubis avatar Granth.  Being shastardhari doesn’t mean you solve all problems through violence and sword. In fact it’s a noble concept that includes aspects of diplomacy, civil engagement, compromise and finally victory. Whatever the situation commands, the right approach is utilised for the benefit of all. 

13 hours ago, samurai2 said:

And you need guys need to sort this format out. I quote on one page which gets deleted when i go to next page for a quote.. 

Admin sort this shit out

What browser are you using ? 

6 hours ago, samurai2 said:

What was the duration between Guru Har Rai's charai to when Guru Tegh Bahadur become shaheed?

Is it not possible  that Guru Hargobinds army was present in Guru Gobind Singhs fauj? If so the "gupt" aspect really comes into play

Why would Guru Har Rai even keep an army? The one Guru who got so bhairagi from accidentally pulling a petal from a flower?  

 

Thanks and a big up to the admin to give me a quick approval..much appreciated with all my humility 

It is possible but they would have to be really old then. Guru Har Rai had a small army that fought against the army of Aurangzeb during the succession wars with him and Darah Shikoh. 

Great. Back to the idea of people shitting themselves because they disagree with you.  You haven’t addressed any of my points earlier on responsibility and Sikh history.  Instead you just went on a rant of everyone else being clowns and fools. And that’s the kind of low level trash you contribute with nowadays.  

Well If you don’t like it here feel free to leave. You ran away like a spoiled insulted brat because we edited your post due to your disgusting American trailer trash language. You apparently think special rules apply to you and therefore felt insulted and left because we dared to edit your post. Not sure why you came back again. You used to contribute to the site with loads of good perspectives, translations and ideas but in the last few years you’ve just been grumpy and disgusting. It’s been downhill really for a good time. We’ve had several complaints on you but didn know if you’d act like a spoiled brat again  If we started editing your posts and therefore let you get away with it.. Challo do whatever you want. 

Lol because youre not doing anything in real life apart from bickering like an old grumpy loser. If you had any good experiences and best practice  of things working you would have shared them ages ago.  You spend so much time talking trash about other people while lowering the standards of this forum with your American trailer trash language, that you ain’t gonna fool anyone pretending to be humble all of a sudden.   

I actually did respond with my views on this in a long post above. Perhaps you didn see it because you were busy trashing people that disagree with you.  

LOL so what does it tell you? Let me guess: Something about me being afraid, docile, weak, brainwashed, clown, fool and shitting myself?  You seem to make up lot of stuff in your head on the basis of very little information you get. I guess that's why you kept failing to represent our views and instead just kept adding words in our mouths.. Challo... Each to their own.

And I take it that you're just as useless as the rest of us despite you having superior knowledge. Which actually just makes it worse since you should have a greater responsibility as you have superior knowledge. But instead you apparently just sit on the fence and criticize everyone for what they’re doing. But at the end of the day you're doing as little as everyone else. Challo.  Who says knowledge has to translate into actions?? That’s probably just overrated anyway.

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

No not everyone, but certainly you. 

What the f**k do you know. 

Well apparently not as much as you.

But would still be interesting to hear if you use all your profound knowledge and insigts on how the world is actually working, - you are not brainwashed after all - into doing something usefull for the panth. Or are you just as useless as the rest of us.

Fantastic - so you regard people that disagree with you as fools, clowns, docile, fearful and shitting themselves??? How do we even further this conversation if this is the low level you wanna debate at ? 

By the way - now that you are amongst the brave, tough and non-brainwashed Sikhs who has seen the real dangers out there  - what are you planning to do in concrete matters for the panth to create such a proficient force ? And in terms of being shastardhari I take it that you are proficient in weaponry use ? Or are you just sittin on the side criticising everyone else but at the end of the day being as useless as you criticise every one else of being ? 

It is also important to notice that 'Sikh political theory' consists of two levels. Civil society (the practice of everyday Singhs) and the political (the practice at governmental level).

These two ARE NOT THE SAME. Sikhs at civil society level keep their rahit by paying daswandh, practice nitnem, keep their kesh, train shastars, do not lie etc. On a political and governmental level there is nothing to suggest that the same 'rules' apply in the sense that it becomes mandatory law for all to do nitnem and pay daswandh and if people do not do so, they will get punished for it.  Notions of rahit, daswandh etc apply at the civil level, - not political.  Should a sikh state forbid people to cut their hair?

I've never really come across any source that mixes the two levels such that it should become state law to arm the entire population. What Sikhs do at a personal level should not always translate into state level.

Also in terms of Sikh history, the shastardhari aspect adapts to society. Guru Hargobind armed the Sikhs and raised an army because it was needed for warfare. During the tenure of the next three Gurus this army was slowly by slowly decreasing and then once the need arose it was again reassembled by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj. Guru Har Rai kept an army of 2200 soldiers (small compared to the army of Guru Har Gobind) but there is no indication of any standing army of significant size during the rule of Guru Har Krishan and Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj. So in essence, the shastardhari notion can adapt to the circumstances of society in terms of what suits the Sikhs, and the people at large, the best.

Quote

"All I am seeing is you saying that this is not an apt summary of your views but you have not clarified your views.

What more is there to your view other than fear and selfishness?"

I usually dont find it motivating to participate in a conversation where people put words in my mouth or misrepresent what im saying. Whats the point in debating a complex topic of national security if its narrowed into being afraid or not?

But here is my take on it. America has a liberal weapons legislation and is THE ONLY western country in the world where you have frequent mass shootings and massacres taking place at schools, cinemas etc. There is no other country in the western world where tens of thousands of people are killed by guns within a few years.The easy acces to weapons means that conflicts quickly escalate. A conflict that would end up in fist fights in Europe will usually end with shootings in America. The problem is such that you can legally bring your guns into the cinema but you can't bring your own candy and popcorn!!

To my knowledge, Canada is a fairly peacefull country but they have the same problems as all other socities ie. depression, mental illnesses, xenophobia, hate crimes etc. By flooding the country with weapons you'll create US circumstances and violence will most likely escalate. Again, there is no other country in the Western world where you see such widespread violence as in the US!

For me it is not about fear. It is about responsobility. Sikhs of Canada are not a temporary minority only there to work and then head home to retire. Sikhs of Canada have been there for a century and will stay for many more centuries. For that reason they have a great responsobility in keeping the country stable and secure, and the decrease of widespread violence and gun violence is one such aspect. I dont see it as a gurmat practice to contribute to the flooding of weaponry in a non-violent, peaceful society thereby increasing the risk of fatal violence.

In terms of Sikhi, I assume there are gun training clubs in Canada as in Europe where Sikhs and other shastardhari Singhs can go and develop/train their skills as well as procedures of how to attain weapons legally in your own home. I know that is the case in many European countries (and oddly enough I know only one Singh in Europe who has actually done weapon training!!)

The whole "Yudh karai tab shant" ideology in Sikhi is in a context of opression, where the Sikhs are to arm themselves in order to fight tyranny. The ideology does not encompass flooding peacefull societies with weaponry for the sake of boosting and incresing mortality rates in case one such conflict is to happen. The whole "I better arm myself so I can defend myself against my neighbour" only means your neighbour will also arm himself.. And before you know it, everyone has weapons trying to defend themselves against everyone else.

This time Better than the first but still doesn’t do justice to our views. Papiman has raised some good arguments above regarding the US and the situation there.

But you making a political question on the arming of a whole Canadian population into a question of being afraid or not is just weird, stupid and unproductive. I’m out but you can continue with papiman who has raised some good points

So to summarise. Me and papiman are afraid and Dalsingh is tough and brave 

The fact that none of us can see ourselves in your summary shows that you’re way off in your analysis. But sure let’s just say we’re afraid if that makes you feel more of a tough man 

4 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

 

Basically you're both scared.

That’s a rather weird way of summarising our views. 

has the contrary 

Spot on papiman!!

I find your views interesting.  Stay and explain rather than leave when asked to explain. 

And what is the political program of a Sikh theocracy ?

2 hours ago, starchpagg47 said:

Why shouldn't canada be a Sikh theocracy? 

Interesting.  Why would any non-sikh Canadian want that ? 

Where did he ask for weapons ban ? 

There is a British source from the late 1800s that says the Charitro Pakhyan teaches how to be a just ruler. Here you have a direct link between CP and rulership (rather than it being erotic tales)

I'll try and post the quote when I've got acces to my notes.

Many years ago when I was reading through the Twarikh Guru Khalsa, I’m pretty sure I read some passages where the author said he had talked to punjabi Muslims who had returned from Mecca. And they had also seen materials related to guru Nanak there.  This book is from the 1880s. I’ll have to look it up again. 

I havent been able to find references in dasam bani since sridasam.org was closed down