tSingh

Udasis are Sikhs, says SGPC chief
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, December 9
The Dharam Prachar Committee (DPC) of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) has declared that Nirmal and Udasi sects were an integral part of Sikhism. The SGPC has decided to challenge the decision of the Supreme Court which pronounced that ‘udasi deras’ were not gurdwaras.

The SGPC chief, Prof Kirpal Singh Badungar who presided over the meeting said he had instructed his staff to get an approved copy of the Supreme Court verdict so that it could be challenged.

In another development the Dharam Prachar Committee has decided that new gurdwaras could be built only with the prior permission of the Jathedar, Akal Takht. This decision has been taken to check the mushrooming of non-historical or unauthorised Sikh shrines. Professor Badungar, however, said no gurdwara on caste basis would be allowed. For this purpose, the SGPC would approach the Jathedar of Akal Takht, Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti shortly.

Professor Badungar said the SGPC would advise Mr Joginder Singh Panjrath, an SGPC member facing charges of visiting the dera of Ashutosh, to appear before Akal Takht to prove his innocence. He claimed that Mr Panjrath was innocent and his picture was super-imposed on that of dera of Ashutosh by tricks of photography. He said the SGPC would also advise Mr Panjrath to file case for the manipulation of his photograph.

The SGPC also took serious note of the challan of the vehicles driven by Sikh women/girls not wearing helmets. He said instead of implementing the orders, the state government should have challenged the orders keeping in view the sentiments of the Sikh community. He said the SGPC would contest the orders in a court.

The DPC has also decided to constitute a monitoring cell of Sikh intellectuals to check the distortion in Sikh history if any.

Recently, a couple of years ago, Vedanti made a declaration as Jathedar that Udasis are Sikhs. It was in the tribune. I may have it saved, but I'm sure if you use their search engine.

very nicely put

The maintaining of, and symbollism of light as a candle or a ghee lamp exists in every tradition I can think of (Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Jainism)

Mukt marg was not lost and is in print.

The ghee jot was explained to me at a practical level as a means of purification, the fumes getting rid of unwanted insects, along with other deeper meanings.

Interesting point Amardeep. I'll be brief.

Even puratan shaastra goes in for the same! For example the idea that there have been countless Brahmas is found in Sri Yog Vashista! The idea that brahmgyan is not found in the Vedas....is in the Vedas itself!!! One of the main Upanishads talks about higher and lower knowledge, higher or brahmgyan is only acquired through a guru, and is beyond words. Those who think it is contained in the lower knowledge of the Vedas is lost! That Upanishad is in the Vedas! Likewise, Guru Maharaj would also says repeatedly that the highest experience of brahmgyan is beyond words 'akatha katha'!! It is agam agochar, beyond human thought! If its beyond human thought, how can it be written down anywhere!!! What words can do is lead you to that point, that is the function of the Guru, that is why Kabir Ji mathatek's his gurdev before God in his shabad. Only a fool would conclude that because the Guru says he couldn't find it in the quran or vedas, both are false and only Guru Granth Sahib is right!!!

On the avatars, the Guru sets two parameters. One is that in Raag Maaroo Parmatma's sargun saroop included earlier avatars, there is a devotional sentiment to the physical aspects in that long shabad of Guru Arjun Dev. Secondly, the bhatts draw a line of continuity between earlier avatars and the Guru. Bhai Gurdas explains waheguru mantra being the simran of V = vasudev, H = Hari, R = Ram and G = Gobind. Hence, the hari avatar of each yug. Guru Gobind Singh in one part describes countless rams and krishnas (which from a vedantic perspective there of course are), and that all that is trehgun (i.e. afflicted by them - which is referred to in the brahma, vishnu, shiv bit you quote) is impermanent and likely to rot and decay including the physical roop of avatar. Hence, the point is; unlike other updesh/forms of vedant/samprdayas, the sargun svaroop is definately not the essence (i.e. Gaudiya samprdaya - Chaitanya samprdaya's view that the nirgun being the 'energies' emitting from the sargun form, thus the highest stage being friendship with the physical form - for these lots the 'mayavaadi's are despised as heretics in claiming that the nirgun is the highest form). It is the nirgun which manifested the sargun. On the nature of maya, it itself is brahma, vishnu, mahesh - i.e. causality and change in time - the processes. Read Dakhani Onkar, it is clear from there where Brahma comes from. This is one of the traditional interpretations of Om for example, the manifestation of Parmatma. For more details on this, read more about traditional indian philosophy and hinduism in general.

here we go again...

This topic so far seems to be classic evidence of the problem the panth is suffering from at the moment (hence the rise of people like Kala Afghana); modern Sikhs' bottom-up thinking; 'I don't agree with this, therefore Guruji definately never did it'!

please, posters, try not to simply discuss issues at an emotional level...at least try to find some evidence first.


refs used for the below:

Kahn Singh Nabha's 'Mahan Kosh'
Giani Ishar Singh Nara's 'Safarnama te Zafarnama'
Dr. Ganda Singh 'Hukamnamae'
Parvinder Kaur 'Kar Sewa: Historical Gurdwaras'


1) Kahn Singh Nabha (a Singh Sabhia) has three entries, for each of Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives.

2) There is historical evidence for each wife's existence such as a smadhi for Mata Jeeto, now called Gurdwara Agampur at Sri Anandpur Sahib (she is recorded to have died while Guruji was there). She was cremated by Guru ji himself.

3) Mata Sundri was the mother of Baba Ajit Singh ji. The haveli where she lived and died in Delhi is recorded in Mahan Kosh is now Gurdwara Mata Sundri ji in Delhi.

4) According to the 'Kar Sewa' and 'Hukamname' texts, both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri issued hukamname to the Khalsa after Guruji from the haveli in Delhi.

5) Nabha's kosh records Mata Sundri as being the mother of three of the Sahibzaday, Baba Jujhar Singh ji, Baba Fateh Singh ji and Baba Joravar Singh ji.

6) Mata Sahib Kaur's samadhi is near Sri Guru Harkirshan's.

7) I think the author of the much copied and pasted article that started this dicussion has shown great ignorance himself by declaring that Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and Giani Ishar Singh Nara are ignorant of Punjabi cultural practices!

Just variations in standard nitnem bania, which ones are done, which ones are not. For example at Goniana Mandi, one quirky characteristic is that in the daily morning rendition of sukhmani sahib certain sections are sung like kirtan, then the rest of the bani is read.

Yes Rupz, this is why I've termed Udasis, Nirmalay, Sevapanthis sattavgunic samprdais (in contrast to the non-sattavgunic one) in the past. Nothing in life is ever this simple...but ALL the Nirmalay texts on this subject I've read break down the khalsa into these three forms (with grihasth as rajoguni). The big Udasis I've spoken to (inc the Sri Mahant of the Bada Udasin Panchayat Akhara) also hold this point, that the very aim of the Nihangs is totally distinct from the aim for nirmalay udasis and sevapanthis (meaning the way in which they uphold dharma). Yet if you read the bani about the Khalsa in Sarbloh Granth, it is clear that guru Maharaj used the term to also imply the spiritually pavittar also. Hence the Khalsa samprdais being both Nirmalay and Nihangs historically.

I thought I'd bring this one up again based on having put the question to my gurdev recently, particularly regarding the differences in opinion regarding when and how to identify Kalki Avtar. His answer was one I didn't really expect for its obviousness, and was quite appropriate I feel. I paraphrase;

Who knows! When and if it will happen, will be when and if it will happen, but the stipulations of Gurbani are eternal! An earnest gurmukh will gain no benefit from persuing and willing such prophecies. The need of the moment according to Gurbani is NOW (Jaap Sahib's 'do kaalang pranaasi' springs to mind). Our obligation is to our own immediate situation and the virtues one should cultivate. This is what our iccha should be.

'All about devi devta'...doesn't sound too much like Vairag Shatakam! Perhaps you read something else. This is in sanskrit, and after salutations to Shiv Maharaj, focuses on a set of teachings about the nature of existence and vairag through example and metaphor.

It has been translated into Punjabi by Pandit Narayan Singh (and someone else I forget). It has also been drawn upon for Pandit Gulab Singh Nirmala's 'Bhavrasamrit', an 18th century text I have translated, being published and available soon.

hehe, DB. I know some people are into that, but people are such lazy asses, they'd then be asking others to read it to them, and then explain it to them, and then act upon it for them, etc. I personally think these things should be searched out with abit of effort, otherwise most people are only reading out of a vague casual interest. If someone can't be arsed to even find this stuff (when as I say its readily available) then whats the point? In fact if a person is driven to find this stuff, they'll find some of it in the local gurdwara libraries or DTF for example (I've picked up some great things from there). Its just a matter of time and effort. Admittedly with the texts that are obscure, withering in punjabi libraries, then fair enough.

A couple more CSJS things I remembered -

- Mahant Ganesha Singh's steek on 'Adhyatam Prakash' - the original is by Kavi Sukha, who was attached the Guru Gobind Singh's darbar. Mahant Ganesha Singh states he was actually 'Pandit Sukh Singh' and a Nirmala at that, with Sukha being his poetic name. Either way its a granth working through Vedant, dinky yet pretty difficult.

- As Kam mentioned, Chanakaya Rajniti steek is available (a Sant Jagjit Singh Herkhowal one is also available through CSJS). But the important thing here is that the braj bhasha rendition of it that they are using is by Senapati, the court poet of Guru Maharaj who also authored 'Sri Gur Sobha'. Obviously as the title suggests this is about wordly social and political affairs.

- 'Gur Gira Raag Mala Mandal Prabodh' by Sant Tehil Singh - this is a short granth about raagmala. not my cup of tea, but I'm sure the Taksalis and AKJees will love it.

- Sant Prem Singh Vaidraj 'Chaar __ di Chownkri' a small green book printed by CSJS, again ayurved, again a nice mangal.

- That book forward-backward was translating by Baba Jagjit Singh Herkhowal about Baba Jawala Singh Herkhowal is a CSJS publication too.


available through them;

- Pandit Nihal Singh Kashiwale - the four 'Char __ di chonkri' ayurvedic granth series. He was the shish of Sri Mahant Pandit Udhav Singh of Panchayti Akhara back when. Again these are pure ayurved but the opening mangal's nice to read and has a snazy new edition printed up with a photo of Pandit Raghuveer Singh Shaastri of Nirmal Sanskrit Vidyala in Kashi on the back, whose a bit of a star himself.

- Pandit Gobind Singh 'Udasi Nirmala' 'Itihas Guru Khalsa' (trans from hindi by Dr. Kapoor) - Pandit Gobind Singh spent most of his life in Kashi and wrote a few granths, this one being originally in hindi. This Kapoor bloke seems to have been unable to make up his mind which samprday he was from so stuck both on the end of his name. He was actually a Nirmala from the end of the 19th beginning of 20th century

there's more I'm sure...

Gurfateh

I've noticed a few times recently people getting unnecessarily excited about samprday books which are dime a dozen over here in India. So its time to share the love. Here is a list of books you can just pick off the shelf in Chattar Singh Jivan Singh, Amritsar;

- Sant Atma Singh 'Puratan Sakhi Parman' - A nirmala from the last century from the prestigious 'Dera Thakura' in Amritsar (not to be confused with the Sant Atma Singh who helped Trump). I've got two different versions of this, the one currently in print is a straight collection of saakhis about the bhagats and puranaic figures. The older version is a uthanka with sakhis working through Guru Granth Sahib. Still, its a classic.

- Pandit Laal Singh Narottam 'Sakhi Parman' - this is the strangest one to print in my opinion. Its again a long collection of saakhis both puranic and not. I found it not so useful, but the photo of him on the inside is great! Has a nice intro by Mahant Teja Singh double MA if I remember correctly. Pandit Laal Singh set up the 'Hare Ram' Ashram in Amritsar at the end of the 19th century (I think).

- Sant Sampuran Singh 'Sidhant Bodhni' - a magnificent Tika on Bhai Gurdas' kabit svayay. Really great. Sant Sampuran Singh was an important Nirmala who wrote many granths in the early part of the 20th century. Curiously his brother was none other than Bhai Mohan Singh Vaid. He was based in Tarn Taran is also accredited with compiling the a comprehensive collection of rehitnamay, and the first printed version of Praan Sanagali (in devanagri).

- Mahant Ganesha Singh's various granths - a very important and highly respected Nirmala based in Amritsar from the 19th/20th century. He wrote a mass of material, mainly ayurvedic texts (most of which are published by CSJS). His Megh Binod Steek is supposedly still untouchable and used among the Nirmalay I've met with ayurved clinics. But CSJS also have a couple more things he wrote - the superb 'Panj Granthi Teeka' and the classic 'Bharat Mat Darpan'. Both are well worth owning. Each reprinted text has a foreword again by Mahant Teja Singh who heads the 'Nirmal Mandal' thing that turns up at SGPC meetings.

- Mukt Marg - a pretty strange text not to be confused with Mokh Marg. Purported to be Guru Gobind Singh's words, unlikely to be in my humblest of opinions. It gives shabads and ennumerates how many repetitions lead to what and what maryada to keep while doing it. Not surprisingly the Bhindran upsamprda use it, and you'll find refs to it in Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji's texts.

- Narayan Hari Updesh - an astounding granth, and very large with it. Its the life story and teachings of again a very famous Nirmala Sadhu, Pandit Narayan Singh from the illustrious Nirmal Virakat Kutia in Kankhal (not the later Pandit Narayan Singh who does the steeks of Dasam Granth, etc who I don't think was a Nirmala at all). It was compiled by his direct shish Pandit Hardev Singh. It contains quotations from a truely dizzying amount of granths ranging from the Vedas through to Bhai Gurdas with everything inbetween. In fact if you were to collect all the granths he references in here, you'd have yourself a pretty comprehensive library of khat darshanas, Puranic, bhakti and Gurmat literature in all its diversity. Astounding.

- Gyani Bhagwant Singh commentary on Bhavrasamrit, and the compilation of braj bhasha introductory Vedantic texts - this commentary is pretty useless in all honesty. He's broken up the larivar of the text incorrectly, and added a really vague at times inaccurate katha of each verse...Kam pointed out differences in his original text and mine (taken from Sant Surjit Singh), and having looked into it, he's used an earlier steek (I found it from the beginning of the 20th century) and mistakenly copied that author's opening mangal and accredited it as the actual text of Pandit Gulab Singh (oops). Avoid it. He presumably compiled CSJS's cheap compilation of the other texts since the same error occurs in that one too.

- Sant Mohan Singh Sundar Gutka - I've still not worked out whether this is THE Sant Mohan Singh from Bhindran upsamprday. Regardless, its an interesting and useful gutka since it contains other older banis now considered unworthy of reading such as 'Paintis Akhri' among others.

- Udasi Matrey - this is a cheap little thing but very useful. It contains most of the key Matras recited by Udasis from Baba Sri Chand, through the four direct disciples, to Baba Gurditta and later founder 'bakshish' Udasin. Judging by the Arti/Ardas, this is taken from Barra Udasin Akhar/Bawa Pritam Das Ji Udasis.

- Sant Devinder Singh - various books - I like the covers myself (he dresses like Baba Dalel Singh, he's one of his many shish). I've only looked at the Bara Maha katha one, and its OK. Nothing spectacular, but worth a read. He brings in Al-Hallaj, the infamous Sufi, as a sakhi.

- Baba Dalel Singh Virakat talks - The famous Nirmala of doaba area from last century. I can't remember the exact title, but this has recently been published as a thin volume.

Available through CSJS;

- all of Sant Surjit Singh Sevapanthi's authoritative commentaries on

a) the aforementioned steeks of the three 18th century braj bhahsa texts (bhavrasamrit, saruktavali, vichar mala),
his Gurbani Path Darpan which includes an extensive history of Bhai Kanhaiyya,
c) his steek on Nitnem,
d) his Anmol Hiray which is the life stories of Baba Kripal Singh and Baba Amir Singh
e) Anmol Rattan steek on Sukhmani Sahib
f) his Sakhi Praman
g) his recently published 'Gaagar ch' Saagar' steek on little bits of Nanak Prakash (inc the mangalachrn someone was asking about recently)

- Kavi Santokh Singh 'Garab Ganjni Tika' - His tika on Japuji to humble the arrognace of Swami Anandghan Udasi's 'Gurbani Tike'. It is superb and a must for anyone trying to understand the traditional Nirmala perspective. Although not available, it was his gurbhai 'Pandit Nihal Singh Thoha Khalsa' who composed an equally remarkable commentary in Sanaskrit on Japuji Sahib.

- Pandit Nischal Das's Vichar Sagar - a very large and incredibly detailed exposition of Advaita Vedanta originally by a dadupanthi scholar from the 19th century (I think). It has punjabi commentary by someone else.

- Pandit Narayan Singh's steek of Pandit Hardyal's braj bhasha rendition of 'Vairag Shatak'.

- Pandit Narayan Singh's steek of Pandit Gulab Singh's 'Prabodhchandrnatak'. A fairly straight forward steek of a classic braj bhasha text, nothing fancy but gets the message across.

-------------------------------


there are other things but I've got to have some lunch...another time. I hope this is useful. I'm not a great fan of the owner of CSJS whose a bit of a wheeler-dealer with an irritating screechy voice, but respect to them for publishing such great stuff. They've also clocked that the NRI 'english book' market and the desi market are almost two different forms of Sikhi!

Lets have a go (apologies for any errors);

Its the famous opening mangalacharan in Kavi Santokh Singh Ji's 'Sri Nanak Prakash' often used in sampradai mangalacharans.

- Sri Naanak, Satguru Maharaj, the 'n-anek' being the singular or not many
- Purushottam, the 'utam' or highest among 'purush' or human beings/persons (this is traditionally given as an epithet of Bhagvaan in avatar form as Ram or Krishna emphasising the superiority of that apparent human form, in accordance with the stance of Kavi Santokh Singh that Satiguru is puran Hari avtar)
- Param, 'greatest'
- Praavar Naath, 'praavar' most superior master (in this context meaning superior to the realm of devtay)
- Yugal, 'both'
- Charan, Satiguru Maharaj's lotus 'feet'
- Mam, 'my'
- Bandanaa, namaskaar, salutations
- Dhar, the ground
- Par, on
- Dharikari, is placing
- Maath, head

So;

Oh Sri Nanak, greatest and most superior of beings, the master of all
I place my head to the ground in salutations to both your lotus feet

Happy gurpurab

Its worth keeping in mind that Guru Maharaj gave his own version of the Ramayana (Ram Avtaar) alongwith sections of the Bhagvat Purana (Krishnavtar) in Sri Dasam Granth, so I would be cautious in castigating it. In Ramavatar Guru Maharaj celebrates Sri Ram Chandra's kshatriya virtues. The quotation identified by David Lorenzen is true (a scholar who has done sterling work on bhakti traditions like kabirpanthis and dadupanthis - both of whom as it turns out have drawn on Sri Ram Chandra as their saguna ishtadev, at least among the books, few ashrams and sadhus I've met).

However many of the crucial aspects of the bhakti movement are found within ramcharitmanas such as sadh sangat, nam simran, and contrary to the earlier post...everyone (including the ajaati bhilni tribe girls who were devoted to Sri Ram Chandra) being qualified for mukti through raam bhagti. I guess the million dollar question is for most bhakti traditions, in the realm of mukti all of us are equally qualified (adhikari), but in terms of the structure of society, did these traditions desire an end to varnashramdharma as a social model....or a modification of it? The extent to which Guru Maharaj worked with kshatriya dharma makes me think the latter not the former, and perhaps a more horizontal model removed of its notions of pollution, its inherent prejudice and the premise of birth rite (just thinking aloud). Furthermore, the inspiration for many of the bhagats was a vaishnav understanding of saguna braham. Namdev on 'raghu ram', Ramanand himself being linked to the Sri Viashnav tradition (ramanuj), dhanna bhagat being his disciple and attaining mukti through devotion to hari, etc.

McLeod's statement regarding the origin of the Nirmalay clearely states that he is basing his opinion purely on the fact that there is no textual reference until the late 18th early 19th century writings.

There are a number of problems with this:

1) Nirmala textual evidence - Pandit Sudaa Singh's sanskritic commentary on Madhusudan Saraswati's Advait Siddhi was written in 1767 in Benaras. Pandit Gulab Singh ji, a very important early Nirmala, completed in 1777 the Bhaavrasaamrit.

2) Pandit Gulab Singh ji himself refers by name in Mokh Panth Prakash to his nirmala gurdev in it's opening mangalaacharn, to Pandit Maan Singh Nirmala. This Maan Singh is the same (correct me if I'm mistaken shaka) who was with Guru ji at Hazoor Sahib.

3) Sant Dargaahaa Singh, who was also with the Guru at Sri Hazoor Sahib, ji is acredited with establishing the first Nirmala akhara in Kankhal, Haridwar in 1710.

4) In 1805 John Malcolm refers by name to the Nirmala Samprda.

5) Nirmala tradition records ten further events (bakshishes - gifts) beyond the 1686 event at Paonta Sahib when Guru ji sent five to Kashi, in which he gave his blessing and guidance to individuals to establish the Nirmala samprda.

6) The original location at which the five sent by Guru ji stayed in Benaras still exists today as a functioning akhara and is called Sri Chetan Math. I had the pleasure of visiting and spending time there in July with Sri Mahant Inderjit Singh ji. There is evidence of it's age and origin here.

7) Even by the late 1700s an aspect of the objective of Guru ji had been achieved with Pandit Sudaa Singh being honoured as one of the most learned sanskrit scholars of his age by those in Benaras.

RE - The views of some Nihangs that Nirmalay were a British invention are at odds also with tradition. The more learned among Nihangs that I have met accept that they existed from the time of the Gurus. Malcolm's text directly contradicts such a view. One possible reason for this view held by modern Nihangs maybe the events at Sri Hazoor Sahib in the late 1800s involving Nihangs and Nirmalay.
Furthermore, it is generally viewed that Guruji gave the panth shaastr and shastr, therefore rather than nirmalay being 'an offshoot of the nihangs', I would state that they both existed with the Guru's blessing.

OK, in your 'sikhism' section you should know most of that. Kabit Svayay are sadly no longer studied that much, but are quite beautiful. Prabodhchandoyanatak is an old sanskrit naatak (play) by krishna mishra using allegorical figures to convey vedant/brahm vidya. The one studied traditionally is the braj bhasha rendition by Pandit Gulab Singh Nirmala. Mehima Prkash you should know is Sarup Das Bhalla's early historical writings. Bhavrasamrit is by Pandit Gulab Singh ji. you can find a post about it on this forum. While we're talking about him, 'Moksha pantha' in the leitner list is Moksh Panth Prakash, Pandit Gulab Singh ji's masterpiece. Very difficult until you've kind of worked your way up through vedanta and other darshanas, but its comprehensive including a critical commentary on everyone including the teachings of jains and buddhists. it then moves onto some very specific discussion of bhamati and vivaran schools of advaita, and specific things like videhmukti, etc.

On to 'sanatan', a lot of that is stuff you can find on the internet. Some of the adhyatmic stuff you again can find translated by nirmalay, sevapanthis and udasin into braj bhasha such as yog vasistha, ramayan, etc. In there are also texts which are not quite so 'snatan' at all, but from the bhagat movement - saruktavali is a braj bhasha text by kavi hardyal ji (who had a link to the Guru Sahiban), vichar sagar is the braj bhasha difficult discussion of vedant written by Pandit Nehchal Das Dadupanthi, vichar mala is by Udasi Anath Das, vairag shatak is by bartihari. Hanuman Natak is also later, again in braj bhasha, a copy of which Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji was given. In the 'islamic' section, both masanavi bhakhaa (the opening section of rumi's masnavi translated by sevapanthis) and parasbhag (al-ghazzali's work also translated by sevapanthis) are classic sufi works which can be read about here;

http://www.sewapanthi.org/htmls/sahit_translations.html

on to the second list adhayatam ramayan is also a braj bhasha rendition of this sanskrit text by pandit gulab singh, and the rest are straight shaastra, apart from pingal which i assume to be on grammar along the lines of rup deep granth. 'sixth guru's guru vilas' is obviously gurbilas chhevin accredited to kavi sohan.

hope that helps.

It is originally in braj bhasha written by dadupanthi vidvan Pandit Nischal Das. It is a big favourite of samprdas since it expounds pure advait vedant in common parlance. It is long and detailed. There is an interesting turn of the century translation into english in which the hindu delhi-ite author names his 'preceptor' or vidyaguru as a perfected soul namely 'Baba Parattam Singh Sadhu Nirmala'!

There is a translation into punjabi also from CSJS.

I don't know Niranjana, you've been saying this thing about all groups believe they're the only way.

From my personal experience among three of the four traditional samprdas (barring nihangs admittedly, not met enough to say), I don't get that vibe at all. The Udasis are the udasis, and they know and respect the function of the Nirmalay and Sevapanthis, and vice versa....never a 'well they're like this which is where they go wrong'. Speaking to one very important Udasi recently he commented that while they and Nihangs have contrasting goals and functions, their's is similar (with subtle differences) to the Nirmalay and Sevapanthis. Conversely speaking to one (important I'm told) Nihang at Harian Vela, he started respectfully telling me how the Nirmal Mandal started from Baba Sri Chand (oops!), implying a general ignorance rather than a definite understanding. Of course the UK scene seems different with a definite 'we're right and they're wrong' mentailty...which as you've pointed out before is no different to what already exists. But as we all know the root of that (I hope) is political. In all honesty, among those who practice adhyatamic vidya they all know that neither your bhekh, nor sareer, nor jaat, nor varnashram dharma make the slightest bit of difference. It is merely the aagyaa given to them by maharaj, no more no less. the proof is in the pudding!

I found it!!

Gurfateh

Although the Taksal gatka is stated as Sampooran rehras, it omits quite a few other dohras, chaupais and swaiyas from what are considered the oldest, most complete sampooran rehras (Sri Takhat Sachkhand Hazoor Sahib and Buddha Dal maryada di rehras).

This is a full detailed list of the Dasam Bani section of Sri Hazoor Sahib rehras. You will need a Buddha Dal gutkha for all the extra dohrae, chaupai and swaiyae:

starts:

1) Chapai from 'Buhur asur ka kaatus matha' hence shorter here than Buddha Dal rehras

2) Chaupai 'humanri karo...'

3) Aril 'Sunai...'

4) Chaupai 'Sumbut..'

5) Kabibach Dohra 'jo nij prabh mo...'

6) Dohra 'har har...'

7) Dohra 'jub aais prabh ko...'

8) Kabibach Dohra 'Thand beyo...'

9) Dohra 'jai jai tumray...'

10) Dohra 'Tin bediyan ke..'

11) Dohra 'Thikir four...' - minor detail; Hazoor Sahib break this into a second Dohra at 'Tegh Bahadur ke chulut...' whereas Buddha Dal runs straight through.

12) Swaiya 'chutri ko poot ho...'

13) Dohra 'Dasam katha...' - minor detail; this is the second half of the Buddha Dal's longer Dohra from the same section of Krishnaavtar

14) Swaiya 'Dhan jio teh ko...'

15) Dohra 'Raam katha...'

16) Chaupai 'Jo eh kathaa...'

17) Dohra 'Netr tung..' - minor detail; again Sri Hazoor Sahib break this into a second dohra at 'sadh asadh..' whereas Buddha Dal run straight through

18) Swaiya 'Pai guhai..'

19) Dohra 'Sugul dwar ko...'

I haven't got a Taksali guthka, so I can't recall which of these they have in their rehras.

Also, Buddha Dal guthka have more dasam bani than Sri Hazoor Sahib in rehras.

Does anyone know about the Nanaksar rehras, which I've been told is extended?

Gurfateh

Yes, Nihalio, that's from Rehras Sahib and is a dohra taken from Bachittar Natak.

If you'd like to see the selection of Dasam bani included in Takhat Sri Hazoor Sahib maryada di Rehras Sahib then see my post:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2469

Sidhasana, not padmasan, you could benefit from using a hamsadanda or whatever they're called to support your back (the t-shaped support), you can buy them but they're really easy to make with a couple of bits of wood and a hammer. Generally you need to shift all the weight of your torso over your pelvis/hips. You could use a cushion as pheena says, and that certainly takes the strain off the legs...but that often makes your bum go numb. so you have to make sure you perch. A zen teacher i met was selling very small tough but material cushions on which you perch right at the end (shikantaza dhyan of dogen ji is sitting staring at a wall for an hour at a time). Other things to make sure your posture stays good is to imagine someone is pulling you up by your hair, shoulders back but not stretching. This will make your back hurt at first, but as the muscles strengthen.

Gurfateh

I've noticed a few times recently people getting unnecessarily excited about samprday books which are dime a dozen over here in India. So its time to share the love. Here is a list of books you can just pick off the shelf in Chattar Singh Jivan Singh, Amritsar;

- Sant Atma Singh 'Puratan Sakhi Parman' - A nirmala from the last century from the prestigious 'Dera Thakura' in Amritsar (not to be confused with the Sant Atma Singh who helped Trump). I've got two different versions of this, the one currently in print is a straight collection of saakhis about the bhagats and puranaic figures. The older version is a uthanka with sakhis working through Guru Granth Sahib. Still, its a classic.

- Pandit Laal Singh Narottam 'Sakhi Parman' - this is the strangest one to print in my opinion. Its again a long collection of saakhis both puranic and not. I found it not so useful, but the photo of him on the inside is great! Has a nice intro by Mahant Teja Singh double MA if I remember correctly. Pandit Laal Singh set up the 'Hare Ram' Ashram in Amritsar at the end of the 19th century (I think).

- Sant Sampuran Singh 'Sidhant Bodhni' - a magnificent Tika on Bhai Gurdas' kabit svayay. Really great. Sant Sampuran Singh was an important Nirmala who wrote many granths in the early part of the 20th century. Curiously his brother was none other than Bhai Mohan Singh Vaid. He was based in Tarn Taran is also accredited with compiling the a comprehensive collection of rehitnamay, and the first printed version of Praan Sanagali (in devanagri).

- Mahant Ganesha Singh's various granths - a very important and highly respected Nirmala based in Amritsar from the 19th/20th century. He wrote a mass of material, mainly ayurvedic texts (most of which are published by CSJS). His Megh Binod Steek is supposedly still untouchable and used among the Nirmalay I've met with ayurved clinics. But CSJS also have a couple more things he wrote - the superb 'Panj Granthi Teeka' and the classic 'Bharat Mat Darpan'. Both are well worth owning. Each reprinted text has a foreword again by Mahant Teja Singh who heads the 'Nirmal Mandal' thing that turns up at SGPC meetings.

- Mukt Marg - a pretty strange text not to be confused with Mokh Marg. Purported to be Guru Gobind Singh's words, unlikely to be in my humblest of opinions. It gives shabads and ennumerates how many repetitions lead to what and what maryada to keep while doing it. Not surprisingly the Bhindran upsamprda use it, and you'll find refs to it in Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji's texts.

- Narayan Hari Updesh - an astounding granth, and very large with it. Its the life story and teachings of again a very famous Nirmala Sadhu, Pandit Narayan Singh from the illustrious Nirmal Virakat Kutia in Kankhal (not the later Pandit Narayan Singh who does the steeks of Dasam Granth, etc who I don't think was a Nirmala at all). It was compiled by his direct shish Pandit Hardev Singh. It contains quotations from a truely dizzying amount of granths ranging from the Vedas through to Bhai Gurdas with everything inbetween. In fact if you were to collect all the granths he references in here, you'd have yourself a pretty comprehensive library of khat darshanas, Puranic, bhakti and Gurmat literature in all its diversity. Astounding.

- Gyani Bhagwant Singh commentary on Bhavrasamrit, and the compilation of braj bhasha introductory Vedantic texts - this commentary is pretty useless in all honesty. He's broken up the larivar of the text incorrectly, and added a really vague at times inaccurate katha of each verse...Kam pointed out differences in his original text and mine (taken from Sant Surjit Singh), and having looked into it, he's used an earlier steek (I found it from the beginning of the 20th century) and mistakenly copied that author's opening mangal and accredited it as the actual text of Pandit Gulab Singh (oops). Avoid it. He presumably compiled CSJS's cheap compilation of the other texts since the same error occurs in that one too.

- Sant Mohan Singh Sundar Gutka - I've still not worked out whether this is THE Sant Mohan Singh from Bhindran upsamprday. Regardless, its an interesting and useful gutka since it contains other older banis now considered unworthy of reading such as 'Paintis Akhri' among others.

- Udasi Matrey - this is a cheap little thing but very useful. It contains most of the key Matras recited by Udasis from Baba Sri Chand, through the four direct disciples, to Baba Gurditta and later founder 'bakshish' Udasin. Judging by the Arti/Ardas, this is taken from Barra Udasin Akhar/Bawa Pritam Das Ji Udasis.

- Sant Devinder Singh - various books - I like the covers myself (he dresses like Baba Dalel Singh, he's one of his many shish). I've only looked at the Bara Maha katha one, and its OK. Nothing spectacular, but worth a read. He brings in Al-Hallaj, the infamous Sufi, as a sakhi.

- Baba Dalel Singh Virakat talks - The famous Nirmala of doaba area from last century. I can't remember the exact title, but this has recently been published as a thin volume.

Available through CSJS;

- all of Sant Surjit Singh Sevapanthi's authoritative commentaries on

a) the aforementioned steeks of the three 18th century braj bhahsa texts (bhavrasamrit, saruktavali, vichar mala),
his Gurbani Path Darpan which includes an extensive history of Bhai Kanhaiyya,
c) his steek on Nitnem,
d) his Anmol Hiray which is the life stories of Baba Kripal Singh and Baba Amir Singh
e) Anmol Rattan steek on Sukhmani Sahib
f) his Sakhi Praman
g) his recently published 'Gaagar ch' Saagar' steek on little bits of Nanak Prakash (inc the mangalachrn someone was asking about recently)

- Kavi Santokh Singh 'Garab Ganjni Tika' - His tika on Japuji to humble the arrognace of Swami Anandghan Udasi's 'Gurbani Tike'. It is superb and a must for anyone trying to understand the traditional Nirmala perspective. Although not available, it was his gurbhai 'Pandit Nihal Singh Thoha Khalsa' who composed an equally remarkable commentary in Sanaskrit on Japuji Sahib.

- Pandit Nischal Das's Vichar Sagar - a very large and incredibly detailed exposition of Advaita Vedanta originally by a dadupanthi scholar from the 19th century (I think). It has punjabi commentary by someone else.

- Pandit Narayan Singh's steek of Pandit Hardyal's braj bhasha rendition of 'Vairag Shatak'.

- Pandit Narayan Singh's steek of Pandit Gulab Singh's 'Prabodhchandrnatak'. A fairly straight forward steek of a classic braj bhasha text, nothing fancy but gets the message across.

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there are other things but I've got to have some lunch...another time. I hope this is useful. I'm not a great fan of the owner of CSJS whose a bit of a wheeler-dealer with an irritating screechy voice, but respect to them for publishing such great stuff. They've also clocked that the NRI 'english book' market and the desi market are almost two different forms of Sikhi!

and there is a photo of him (which i saw on tv, although i was later told that you're not supposed to see it until you've done the full yatra of other nanaksar itihasik asthans or something)

There is no such thing as a 'mainstream line' when it comes to lineages - a gurdev has a few shish, each goes on to become a gurdev, has a few more shish...but since the five nirmalas from kashi were put under the charge of bhai dya singh ji and bhai dharam singh ji, and considering that the nirmalay were much fewer in number initially, the parampras all eventually whittle down to one of those two panj pyaras.

all of them apart from nanaksar are sub-lineages of the broader bhai dya singh lineages within the nirmala samprday (while the other broader lineages are from bhai dharam singh). All follow the same parampra down to baba karam singh ji hoti mardan. Nanaksar has a link to the nirmalay via sant harnam singh and sant vadhava singh, the vidyagurus of baba nand singh ji, hence sants like baba ghala singh ji and baba ram singh ji being close to nirmal panchayti akhara nirmalas.