Jagroop Singh

Gurfateh the jatha did a Keertan Programme at the Bristol (UK) Gurdwara a few months ago. this was the first time ever the jatha had been there so as you can imagine everyone was really uplifted by this 'different type' of keertan. the gurdwara's committee members afterwards lavished much praise upon the singhs and singhnia who had travelled all the way down there...begging them that they must come again...but next time, tyhey requested that it should be for a full-length rainsabai. bhai jarnail singh (uk jatha's jathedar), who was as usual absorbed in his naam abyass, was called by a committee member to receive a siropa...he was then asked to say a few words to the gathered sangat. bear in mind that amongst the sangat, the only keski-walah bibian where those who had travelled down with the jatha...there weren't even very many dastaar wearing singhs amongst the native sangat come to think of it. although i don't know bhai sahib very well, its safe to say that he is a man of very few words. he walked up to the stage and quietly accepted the siropa...he then said something which has left a very deep impression upon me. here's what he said - wearing a keski is a form of sewa...we are doing a very important sewa by adorning our dasam duar with a keski - Guru Ji expects no less an honour bestowed upon God's Throne...and that was it... the silence after these words was somehow magical...he then sat back down with what i can only describe as one of the most humble facial expressions i have ever seen. regardless of all the pro and anti keski things i've read, bhai jarnail singh's statement has left a mark so severe upon this manmukh's heart that to imagine Gursikh without a keski is impossible. ps he's not very well at the moment; suffering from dehydration after coming home from abroad. please remember this Gurmukh Piyare in your ardaas. Gurfateh

Gurfateh its funny how people can call themselves Sikhs and still use offensive language like 'queer, paki etc.'. if you're not homosexual fine; but don't hate other people for it. Bhagat Kabir Sahib says: Where i am, You are not. Where You are, i am not. now if we're meant to lose our ego in order to meet Vaahiguru then it seems we will have to leave behind all such petty arguments and 'hates' - WAY BEFORE we even get near such a spiritual concept...a spiritual concept that must be turned into a living reality otherwise its useless. Guru Ji says: Truth is the Highest Virtue; higher still is Truthful Living. personally, reflecting within myself, i think that sex between myself and another male would not be positive spiritually...just like overindulgence in it by myself and my wife would not be conducive, spiritually-speaking. however that doesn't mean that i am going to hate gay people who practise different forms of sex and married couples who are overindulgent in bed! how can i hate when Vaahiguru's Jyot resides in all regardless of their sexual behaviour...and even more so, their general behaviour? how can i use words that will hurt their heart. Bhagat Fareed Sahib says: If you wish to meet your Beloved do not hurt the heart of others because they are precious jewels...your Beloved resides in the hearts of others. how dare we say such hurtful things to people when Vaahiguru resides within their heart; i see no sub-clause in Guru's statement saying: ps this doesn't apply if you're gay (!!!) moving on from that point, the 'its against nature/adam and eve not adam and steve' argument is simply wrong; because homosexual behaviour is often found amongst many animal species. we can call it abnormal but then you're stuck in the same trap...the "judgement of others trap". don't fall for Maya's trap...these traps are all around you everywhere and even more so, lying around in your mind waiting to spring when you least expect them... through the practise of Bibek (Vivek/discrimination), practise that Rehat/conduct/lifestyle that you PERSONALLY feel is most positive...and it will shine like a beacion through Guru's Infinite Kirpa... but whatever you do, DO NOT lose your spiritual earnings by turning that practise of Bibek back outwards and judging others with your new found yardsticks...its not for no reason that we are told that the Guru's path is finer than a hair and sharper than a double edged sword. turns these judgmental eyes inward and realise what Bhagat Kabir Sahib means when he says: Those who see themselves as the worst person are my friends. Sikhi = Unconditional Love - NO MATTER WHAT just some limited thoughts. Gurfateh

Gurfateh really...yeah, it would be good to see the discussion. i hope it is true though that would be cool... Gurfateh

Gurfateh found the pasted article at : <http://www.khalsaalliance.org/index.php?pagename=articles&article=0> its probably the most fantastic account of that day i've ever read. can we post articles/accounts concerning that actual day on this thread - especially eye-witness accounts. thank you Gurfateh >>>> Eyewitness Account of Vaisakhi 1699 (From an Urdu Pamphlet) Bhai Veer Singh mentions Abu-ul-Trafi in his book. He was spying on Guru Gobind Singh for a year and a half. This is how the incident is recorded in this spy's journal: "On the day Guru Gobind Singh Ji prepared Amrit in Anandpur, the attendance in the Diwan was about 35 to 40 thousands. The Mughals had four thrones (seats of Imperial Power), Delhi, Agra, Lahore and Kalanur, but the grandeur of Guru Ji's throne was in a class by itself. The grandeur of this throne was out of this world. Guru Ji came to the Diwan and, unsheathing his sword, spoke in his thundering voice that he needed a head. No questions or hesitation at all, Bhai Dya Ram came forward to Guru Ji. Guru Ji right in front of all, cut off his head from the body in one stroke. Every body present was stunned. Then Guru Ji again thundered and demanded one more head. Right on Guru's call, Dharam Chand got up, came to Guru Ji, bowed his head and said here is my offering of my head. Guru Ji, again, in one stroke cut off Dharam Chand's head from his body. Now there was a big commotion in the Diwan. But Guru Ji in his thundering voice went on demanding heads, one after the other. Himmat Rai, Mohkam Chand and Sahib Ram got up and offered their heads. Guru Ji cut off the heads of these three also. Many from the congregation went to Guru Ji's mother, and narrated the whole happenings in the Diwan to Mata Ji. Guru Ji cleaned up the blood from the five bodies and heads, and even washed the floor, Then the Guru of these infidels, stitched one head with other body, one by one. This process took about three hours. Then he covered these dead bodies with white sheets. The Guru of the infidels then took a cauldron made of stone and put an iron wok without handles on top of it. Poured water into the wok and started preparing the "Amrit" (Aab-e-hyat - Elixir of life). The infidel Guru kept churning the water with his sword and kept on reciting his Kalma (Gurbani). This process went on for 1.5 to 2 hours. During this time, a lady from Guru's house came and put something in that water. Now the Amrit "Elixir" was ready. From the corpses, he took the covering sheets off. First he sat on the head side of Dya Ram, and poured AMRIT "Elixir" in his mouth, then poured some on his head and sprinkled some on his body, and then he asked the dead body to say "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh." As if on his Guru's Command, Dya Ram got up and repeated in his bold voice,"Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh." It appeared that in the entire congregation every body was so stunned and as if stopped breathing. There was pin-drop silence. All those present were mesmerized with their Guru's miracle. In the same manner, one after the other, Guru made the other four alive too. Then, he took all five of them inside a tent. After a while Guru Ji along with the five came out. The Five were now wearing new attire. Those five risen from the dead were standing in a line. Then Guru came in front of them and took the "Bir Asan" (Posture of the brave - kneeling on one knee) and asked for the Amrit "Elixir." At this point, these five asked, what are you offering to get this Amrit "Elixir." Then Guru said that I would sacrifice my parents and my sons for your sake. Then these five gave Amrit "Elixir" to Guru Ji, and his name was changed to "Gobind Singh." The word "Singh" was attached with other five's too - Dya Singh, Dharam Singh, Himmat Singh, Mohkam Singh and Sahib Singh. Abu-el-Trafi writes that I was very remorseful and cried like a baby. After that, thousands took the AMRIT "Elixir". Even, I was attracted by a magnetic force and with utmost regret fell on Guru's feet. I requested Guru to give me Amrit (Aaab-e-hyat) too. Guru Ji already knew about my role as a spy and a traitor, put his hand on my back, gave me Amrit and changed my name to Ajmer Singh. Just with this act, my sins of numerous lives got washed away. I participated in many wars. On that day, I sent my last report to Emperor Aurang Zeb. In this report I wrote my eyewitness account in details. I also warned Aurang Zeb in the strongest possible words not to dare challenge the incarnation of God, and desist from cruel policies and that if he did not listen to and act on my advise, then God forbid, he would lose all - his throne and family. Gyani Dalip Singh "Komal" of Dhaunola informed that this book is lying in the archives of Aligarh University." (Extracted from the unpublished, "History of Ramgarhias") If any body doubts the above eyewitness account of the Visakhi of 1699, Guru Granth Sahib Ji says," Ikna nu Satguru Ki partit na Aaye." (Some who have no faith in their Guru)

Gurfateh is there anywhere on the net wher i can get hold of english translations of the various rehitnamae - NOT brief expositions on them but the whole tracts translate into english. Gurfateh

Gurfateh there was a programme on telly about a year or two ago which talked about egyptians and their use of certain plants as aphrodisiacs etc. apparently, one plant they used was the lotus which if i remember correctly was used during 'spiritual practises'. they would actually eat it...i think to assist their hallucinations and reveries... Gurfateh

Gurfateh Guru uses words such as Danav alot in Gurbani - that means demon. also, ghosts, gods, demigods etc. are mentioned...no where are we told to worship such things. the question is, is Guru using flowery language to make a parable-stkle point...or does the Guru mean these things in a literal sense? i've read various quite contemporary sakhian regarding the jeevans of some amazing Gursikhs and there are many references to what one would call 'supernatural' occurrences involving supernatural entities/energies...in some cases, some very negative energies. we have to ask ourselves, does Guru just mention these things as 'figures of speech'...or metaphors etc.? if the answer is yes then the issue stops there. incidentally i've heard one well known contemporary 'scientific' author say that the Guru does not teach the theory of reincarnation...but instead evolution. the power of interpretation, and the role it plays, should not be underestimated - we all look at things differently. so i declare my bias...personally, i believe in reincarnation and more relevantly, i also believe that just as we live upon a material plane which is governed by certain laws and scientific phenomena, there are other planes of existence i.e. things such as 'ghosts' and 'demons' do exist in parrallel to us. we could refer to them as entities without physical bodies...without a 'gross existence'. in our past lives, we may even have existed as such entities according to our Karama. according to the Guru, if we are in love with our properties and dominions, then we will be incarnated as ghosts - does that remind anyone of haunted houses...where it seems 'previous occupants' can't seem to let go of the building, and go ont to cause havoc with those people staying there...? we must ask where within Gurbani does the Guru say "these things do not exist" - for me it boils down to that simple equation. i believe such things exist because the Guru tells me they do - it is my intepretation of The Teachings. i used to be an atheist and did not believe in any such 'superstitious' things but now i do... i write the following quite reluctantly but do so because upon reflection, i genuinely believe that the positive implications of sharing this experience outweigh the negative... i have had one experience in my life where some sort of negative force was involved...sure, poeple can say it was imagined but i would humbly differ. it was only by chanting The Infinitely Glorious Naam in a state of Guru-Blessed fearlessness that this strange experience ended i.e. this energy/entity instantly departed...if it had been left to this murakh, he would have cacked his pants and asked for mummy! for me, what Guru Ji teaches is that such things DO exist but when we start getting scared and/or lack faith in Vaahiguru then we are susceptible to them, as well as ALL OTHER FORMS of negativity. remember, this includes choot, nindiya, kaam, karodh etc. black magic and all that 'other crap' is for people who wish to harness negativity...it can work upon a mental level; mind games etc. they may even be able to actually call upon various negative entities but the underlying point remains the same:such things cannot even pinch the bum of a Gursikh... Gursikhs laugh with Guru's Kirpa in the face of all such pathetic, immature, maya-infested, ego-led activities...why???... because where the Naam is sincerely espoused and meditated upon, negativity simply cannot exist there...it is like two poles of a magnet, they can't stay in the same place. Guru teaches us this over and over again. can i leave everyone with the following brief synopsis of a 'contemporary story'... an acquaintance of Bhai Randhir Singh's was involved with the freedom movement. however, he had actually killed someone in order to steal their money...at the time he felt this was warranted as the money would be used 'for a higher cause'. he wasn't especially spiritual but whilst in jail he had come in contact with Sikhi, and so this had led to some spiritual changes. this man had developed a serious physical illness and was clearly nearing his end. he relayed to Randhir Singh how he could not get any sleep at night because the ghost of the person he had callously murdered kept appearing and making lots of noises, banging the roof and scaring him...taunting him about his upcoming death. many other Sikhs supported his testament by saying that they too could hear lots of banging and other strange noises coming from his room during the night. Randhir Singh discussed his friend's actions with him and concluded that he must patiently suffer this ordeal because he had brought it upon himself...he must pray to Vaahiguru and beg for forgiveness. what is most interesting about this stoery is the following: this man would constantly beg Randhir Singh to sit at his bedside and to recite Gurbani...becaue he said that upon seeing Bhai Sahib, the ghost would flee immediately and when he left, the ghost would return to carry on with his relentless torture. for me the story provides the following ; ofcourse, thats only if we accept that Randhir Singh was telling the truth and not making this all up: - such entities DO exist and like all of us are bound to, and play a part within, the ongoing 'wonderful drama' that is governed by karama. - this ghost did exist because other people independently verified that they could hear noises and other happenings emanating form the same room; these descriptions tallied with the affected man's account. - when a Gursikh, who was really into his Sikhi, entered the room...the poles of the magnet could not co-exist....positivity overpowered negativity...the ghost had no option but to flee the room - such is Vaahigurus Hukam. and now after this long mail, i hear you ask with a severe tone of frustration in your voice : 'whats the moral of this longwinded story!!!!"... > they should have cast a Gursikh as the priest in the Exorcist films...u know there wouldn't have been any sequels because that girl wouldn't have stood a chance!!! Gurfateh

Gurfateh when you say Harbhajan Singh, do you mean 3HO Yogi Harbhajan...fill us in a bit more veer ji. Gurfateh

Gurfateh well said veer ji...most people have lost their faith in the SadhSangat - the gathering of the spiritual ones who in Guru's eyes occupy the highest seat upon this earth. they have also lost their understanding of the importance of Jeevangrishti: "i mean unless you wear all white clothes and sit with your legs crossed all day, how can you be a 'Saint'"??!!!. Guru Ji says that he bows to those who have found the SadhSangat...there is a seriously deep lesson to learn from this statement. Gurfateh

Gurfateh one could humbly say in trying to inderstand and accept the jatha concept.... sikhi is the mountain and the jathas are mountain climbers. while they're climbing members can argue amongst themselves and say: "my path up the mountainside will get me there more quicker" or "its the only way up; you lot will all fall down unless you come this way". at the end of the day, if and when they reach the top of the mountain (SaachKhand/Vaahiguru), they will all realise that their destination was one and the view is the same and equal for all of them. ofcourse, i must say that this doesn't mean that all Jathebandi are within the tenets of Sikhi...if someone relies upon the touchstone of Gurbani, with sincere piyar and nimarata, they will see which Jathas preach and practise a way in accordance with the Guru's teachings. and remember, this is a subjective point...no matter how objective we try to be, we will always be subjective to some extent...its the nature of the limited mind. now, those blessed souls who submit their all, and practise deep loving devotion...they no longer hold subjective opinions - they have become one with The Objective - Vaahiguru...they have no sense of self let alone 'opinions'. what to even talk of the SadhSangat..better to close our eyes and meditate...for speaking doesn't always find and listening sometimes confuses... Love is beyond knowledge... jaapo - Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru. "Listen to me for i speak the truth; only those who love will find their lord" 10th Nanak Sahib Gurfateh

Gurfateh As far as i am aware, the Buddha Dal see themselves as part of the 'hindu indian nation' or 'indian hindu nation'. i remember recently reading this somewhere...in a pamphlet or a booklet. So i guess it might be hard for them to support the notion of Khalistan/Self-determination...who knows... Narsingha - i think this is one for you paaji! :-) Gurfateh

Gurfateh he came to england not too long ago, and gave a Bibi who is very much into her Gatka a sword that he had used in various skirmishes/small scale battles... its a pratan shaster and she says although it isn't more that 80-100 years old, its seen a fair few scraps...when he gave it to her, she was well-chuffed. Gurfateh

Gurfateh i've seen many very interesting and even inspiring pictures of Akali Nihungs; some that are ancient and many quite modern. however, given that chatka/sukkha seem so central to the Buddha Dal Akali Nihung a.k.a Tat Khalsa rehat, its strange that i haven't come across any ancient sketches, paintings etc. then again, i can't say that iv'e been really looking... you'd think that aside from their wonderful uniforms, chakkars, shasters, horses, camps etc. they would have also produced pictorial records and representations of these two 'fundamental' practices... Paaji Narsingha, are there any pictures out there...if not, why do you think that there aren't? also, please tell us about the earliest first-hand eyewitness references to these practises from a historical text (NOT based upon Akali Nihung 'oral history', contemporary interview transcripts or Scriptures etc.). this is because i would like to see the words of a writer who spent time with them or came in contact with them for atleast a short period...do such words exist and again most importantly, just how 'early' are they? thanks in advance. Gurfateh

Gurfateh surely Narsingha, you can give us atleast some insight into these issues before the site goes online... I mean, there's a lot of youth out there who are dying to know what the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Budha Dal think about recent history. Gurfateh

Gurfateh Gurfateh