Mithar

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How could they not have a previous birth? Even Souls like Guru Gobind Singh Jee had previous birth which he explains in Bachitra Naatak.

Not all Matheen Jee. Nanaksar and Hazoor Sahib also read a different Rehras Sahib from both Taksal and Nihangs. The Hazoori Rehras Sahib has been unchanged for as long as they can remember in their traditions and all Dakhani Sikhs read that one rather than the Taksali one. Unlike Punjab and north India, the Dekhan and Hazoor Sahib was untouched by the influance of Singh Sabha so their Rehras Sahib is puraatan. Plus, in the Hazoori Rehras Sahib which is not only longer than the Taksali one, but even their Choupi Sahib is longer than the Taksali one. The Hazoori Choupi Sahib starts from "Bahur Asur Kaa Kaatus Maatha".

This is a very good post Shaheediya. Folk songs and folk culture of Punjab should be preserved and remembered. Althought the Geets they are discussing here are mainly of the modern punjabi culture. I have a book which is about centuries old Punjabi Geets. Those geets are about the real Punjabi folk culture. Real priceless stuff.

Well, once i talked to a missionary Giani about why the SGPC maryadha does not make Anand Sahib and Choupi Sahib mandatory in the morning and that is the reason he gave me, and that is the reason they are given in their missionary colleges. The Keski issue AKJ does use scriptural evidence as does those who day Kesh is kakar, since puraatan Rehetnamas mention both, some mention Kesh while some mention Keski. In this case ones own bibek Buddhi should be used. Same thing with the meat issue. Some old Rehetnamas say meat should not be consumed while some say it can be consumed as long as it is not Kutthaa, but if one uses Bibek Buddhi and reads Gurbani(especially Bhagat Kabir Jee's Bani) one can determine what is right in this issue. We also need to realise a thing about old Rehenamas is that many times they write things to make it very brief and short. For example many old Rehetnama say we should do Simran of "Guru Guru", when we all know that by "Guru Guru" they really mean "VaheGuru VaheGuru". Just doing simran of "Guru Guru" doesn't make sense, but if you use some logic, one can determine what "Guru Guru" really means "Vaheguru Vaheguru".

Well, I don't really think we should ONLY depend on old rehet namas. For our rehet, our oral traditions which are passed down from generation to generation coupled with rehet namas should be used to determine our rehet. BOTH should be consulted. The five Bani of the morning time(Japji, Jaap, Savaiye, Choupi, Anand) are banis which are unanimously recognised and read by all in the Panth. There is no dubidhah or doubt about this in the Panth. Only the SGPC does not read those 5 banis in the morning, but the reason they give is that they feel since the shortened Anand Sahib and Choupi is included in Rehras sahib, those Banis are not mandatory to read twice, in this case their logic is not using old rehet namas but more in terms of efficiency and ease. No matter from which group, Sampradah you take Amrit from, the Panj Pyare when making Amrit in the Sarbloh Bata with a Khanda, all Panj read the 5 morning Nitnemi Banis, one Pyara doing one bani until all five banis are read. This is how it is and how it has been for generations. There are some things that traditions should be followed. When the entire Panth unanimously agree upon a certain issue, then it should be followed by all. In this case Bibek Buddhi should be used to determine this. When a rehet is not mentioned in old Rehet namas, but is unanimously practiced by all, then logically tradition should be followed here. But when a rehet is mentioned in old rehetnamas and there is doubt in the panth about that certain issue then I think that ones Bibek Buddhi should be used to determine what is right and what is right should not go against Gubani's teachings, because only Gurbani is right while our Buddhi can be flawed no matter how Sianaa we may think we are.

That's also a very good point you got there Amardeep Singh Jee. like I said, originally I think that the Rehras sahib in Guru Granth Sahib Jee was Sampooran, but over time extra Shabads were added with each passing generation to the point where now those Shabads are mandatory. But more bani the better for us.

Yeah I agree with you that the SGPC nitnem is too short. Their morning Nitnem is only the follwing: -Japjee Sahib, -Jaap Sahib, -Savaiye, Afternoon is: -Rehras Sahib Nighttime: -Kirtan Sohela Their logic is that since the Panj Pouris of Anand Sahib are included in Rehras Sahib, then there is no need to make it mandatory to read Sampooran Anand sahib in the morning. They make the same arguement with Choupi Sahib, since it is included in Rehras Sahib, it does not need to be mandatory to read it in the morning. Personally my Nitnem is exactly like the Taksal except for Rehras sahib which I do of the Hazoor Sahib/Nanaksar. Just wondering what kind of Rehras Sahib do Nirmale beleive in. Do Nirmale have their own Gutke?

The SGPC is a democratic system. Who ever has the democratic majority gets his way. I think that Sant Samaj, Nihang Dals and like minded organisations should get togather by forming a common coalition and contest the SGPC elections. Imagine if we had Sants, Rehetwaan Singhs and Nihang Singhs as elected members of the SGPC instead of the corrupt men right now. What a difference it could make.

I know the Taksal Rehras Sahib is considered Sampooran by Taksal, but when I went to Hazoor Sahib and their Rehras Sahib is even bigger and they say theirs is sampooran while others are not, Nihangs have a different one too which I think is the longest one of them all. Nanaksar reads the same one as the Hazoor Sahib Rehras Sahib. So which one is Sampooran? They all say theirs is Sampooran. I could be wrong, but I think that originally the Rehras which is found in Guru Granth Sahib Jee was Sampooran. But over time like during the Misl period Singhs would like to read more and more Bani, so they would add Shabads to their Rehras Sahib. Over time generation after generation those extra Shabads became an integral part of Rehras Sahib. Personally I read the Hazoor Sahib rehras Sahib because it is the longest one available to me. But when I get the Nihang Gutka, i'll probably start reading that one. But I consider them all Sampooran including the SGPC one. What the SGPC tried to do was that before their standardised Rehras Sahib, they got together all the Rehras sahibs in the Panth and included in their standardised version the Shabads which are common to all the Sampradahs while excluding the ones which are not common to all groups.

You are right rindinding Jee about Sikhs not advancing technologically. I feel that the main reason why Sikhs have not been able to advance onto contemporary weapons is because of India's strict and outdated gun control laws dating from the colonial era. Before the British conquered Punjab, the Sikhs were always an armed people. Every Sikh male was a soldier/warrior. They had to be since they were the smallest minority in Punjab itself no more than 15% of the population, and that's not even including the population of Kashmir and NW frontier which would just push the Sikh population percentage even lower in the over all demographics. The British unarmed the Sikhs, and it has been the case ever since. If all Sikh men were armed as our ancestors were, then I doubt the Muslims would have been able to take half of Punjab from us in 1947 and I also doubt the Sikhs would have been victimised as they were during the 84 riots by congressi badmash gunday. In India, when a person wants to get a gun license it's next to impossible unless you can bribe or have connection with someone influancial. I'm not a Khalistani, but I feel that Amritdhari Sikhs are meant to be armed in India, and they should always strive to aquire a gun(legally). But having a gun does not mean we should forget our Puraatan Shastars. They should also be practiced.

This is unbeleivable. How could they do this. I hope these boatmen who rape these women drown one day or get eaten by a Magarmach.

Poola had full government and police support. Besides having police support, he had atleast 40 fully armed men with him at all times. But still considering that he lived in Punjab, where millions of Sikhs live he still survived. During Puraatan times, one or two Sikhs were enough to kill men more dangerous than Poolah. Sikhs of today no longer have the kind of mindset they once had. Even most of our Panthic leaders who did so much against Sacha Souda, but even they were unable lift a finger against Poola. I doubt that Poolah and his gang would have been able to stop 5 die hard fully armed Singhs if they ever decided to punish Poolah. But out of a population of 25 million Sikhs we could not produce even 5 such Singhs who would have taken it upon themselves to punish Poolah. Unfortunately Sikhs are not made of the same metal they once were. We are no longer fearless as our ancestors were.

I agree with you. Great post.

The untouchable traditions of the brahmins is a thing of the past. Long ago they would have to wash themselves if the mere shadow of a low caste touch them. Today with western education, most Brahmins atleast no longer follow these useless rules. But it is equally sad that long long long ago, Brahmins were priests who would spend all their lives in religious studies and worship. Today you never see such Brahmins, except for a hand full. Rajputs would live as warriors, but you know longer see Rajputs who can even use the sword, they have taken the same rout as the Khatris who long ago also abandoned their warrior Dharm and became businessmen. A Sikh on the other hand should ideally be like a Brahmin in terms of his Dharmic knowledge, like Ksatriya in terms of his warrior skills and do seva like a shudra. But unfortunately we don't see many Sikhs who live these ideals.

Record it and please put it on google or youtube. Some one do this seva

I think that a Nihang by the name of Baba Deep Singh Jee was doing alot against Phoola and his crew.

That's true. For those who actually do follow the phoola case know that the only reason he's in jail is because of the efforts of Gursikhs who wanted to get him legally, otherwise the law and government had no problem with this man being free. He's probably in hell getting tortured by Jamdoots right now while on his way to Dharm Rai.

Isn't ivory illegal? how did you manage to get it?

I used to think the same thing. But if you check the earliest census reports done by the British which also collected data on castes, the Chamars never identified themselves as Sikhs, while all other communities did. Surely the Chamars were never more discriminated than the ChuRaas, yet the Churaas have always identified themselves as Sikh from the earliest of census reports. The truth is, the Chamars have never considered themselves as Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, they have always identified themselves as Hindus. Within Hindu society the Chamars also get discriminated, yet that does not stop them from identifying themselves as Hindus. As far as the Big Bad Jatts discriminating against them, well the Chamars are responsible for the same crime against the ChuRaas. A Chamar for example will never eat with a ChuRaa, and until recently, would never allow a ChuRaa to sit equally with a Chamar, they consider the ChuRas well below them in the caste hierarchy. ChuRas on the other hand, I feel very bad for them. They do not discriminate against anyone, yet they are discriminated by all. They have always been very faithful Sikhs. The Bhangi Misl was filled by them. When I said that other communities have always had Sikh traditions, well just look at Tarkhans, Sainis, Rajputs, Labanas, ChuRaas they can all date back their traditions to times of the Gurus themselves, while the Chamars can't... Why? because they were never Sikhs in their long history. Sure there were Sikh Chamars here and there like the famous Giani Ditt Singh(master mind of the Singh Sabha movement), but over all Chamar mainstream community does not have a Sikh tradition neither have they ever identified themselves as Sikhs. Now they have turned Bhagat Ravidas Jee into the Guru of the "Chamars", when that was never the case. Until recently, Bhagat Ravidas Jee's followers came from diverse backgrounds. But ever since Dalit nationalism of Dr Ambedkar, Dalits have decided to start and create their own religions. Dr Ambedkar called on Dalits to embrace Buddhism, while the Dalit leaders of north India in particular Punjab(mainly Doaba Chamars) called Chamars to embrace and high jack the name of Bhagat Ravidas jee. Even during the Punjabi language struggle, the Doaba Chamars would overwhelmingly identify Hindi as their mother tongue as opposed to Punjabi.

Well, for us Bhagat Ravidas Jee is Bhagat, not Guru. For us, the human Guru is only those Gurus who were from Guru Nanak Dev Jee to Guru Gobind Singh Jee, and now their Guru Jyot is in Guru Granth Sahib Jee. A Sikh should never mimic the Chamar community by calling Bhagat Ravidas Jee as Guru. We need to understand the background of the Chamar community when they call Bhagat Ravidas Jee as Guru. They are mainly Punjabi Chamars. Unlike the Kabir Panthis who have a direct link to Bhagat Kabir Jee, the Chamar Ravidasia movement has no direct Sampradayak or Panthic link going all the way back to Bhagat Ravidas jee. Their movement is mainly a caste based movement that started not too long ago in reaction to Jats. Unlike Jats, Tarkhans, khatris, Lobanas, Sainis, Mazabi, Rajputs and even Brahmins who embraced Sikhi and have a long standing Sikh tradition within their own respective communities, the Punjabi Chamar community does not have a Sikh tradition of their own. They were never really Sikhs unlike some other communities in Punjab. They mainly started reading Bhagat Ravidas jee's bani and began associating with him after the British took over Punjab, otherwise they don't even have any long standing tradition of being Bhagat Ravidas followers prior to that. The Punjabi Chamars being followers of Bhagat Ravidas Jee is a very recent phenomenon. Prior to the Chamarisation of the Ravidas movement, the followers of Bhagat Ravidas Jee came from all backgrounds and communities just as Guru Nanak Dev jee and Bhagat Kabir Jee had following from all communities.

Personally I think that until Khalsa Raaj is established all over the world casteism and dowry will remain prevalent. No amount of education or awareness can destroy these two evils which are as integrally part of us as white on rice. Even when India was under Buddhism before Shankar Acharya was born, casteism remained despite Indian society following Buddhist doctrines which reject casteism. Within our Panth, casteism and dowry is very much prevalent. Only Sikhs with Jatha or group affiliations have been saved from these evils, but our mainstream Sikh society is following casteism and dowry traditions.

I think that studying other scriptures is important for us to understand Gurbani in proper context. The Gurbani of SGGSJ and Dasam Granth make many references to events and personalities who are connected with the Hindu religion. I think that studying other scriptures is important to understand the context many tukhs are written in.

The Chamars call Bhagat Ravidas Jee as "Guru". But for us Sikhs, he is a revered Bhagat. The Chamars calling Bhagat Ravidas Jee as "Guru" is a recent event in our history, probably dating back to the Singh Sabha movement. They don't really have any proper Sampradayak link going all the way back to Bhagat Ravidas Jee. It is more of a reaction to Jatts. They see the Khalsa Panth as being a Jatt Panth while they are trying to form their own Chamar Panth in the form of Ravidasia Panth. But the song is well sung.

das jee has quoted some excellent Gurbani tukhs. Everyone should have them KaanTh.