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Mithar

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Posts posted by Mithar

  1. Added yesterday, Shabad Hazaray Patshahi Dasvin in Classical Raag Keertan performed by various ragis

    http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKeertan%2FShabad_Hazaray_Patshahi_Dasvin_Classical

    More to follow

    Amazing Shabads. Really well sung. Guru Jee's bani in Shabad Hazare Patshahi 10 is simply too good. It's still shocking how some Naastik minded people can doubt Dasam Bani.

  2. PatiBartha Dharm is the Dharm of the ideal Indian woman who is faithful and obedient to her husband. The reason it is mentioned when talking about good Sikh women is because this is traditionally considered a praiseworthy quality for a woman to have. But due to western/feminist influence these types of traditional qualities are no longer considered sought after. Patibartha Dharm along with Sharam, chastity and modesty were considered not only good qualities amongst Sikh women but amongst all Indian women.

  3. I'm skeptical about these new age granthis. Do you really think they can connect to the youth born and raised abroad with pindu english? Do you really think the gurdwara wil let them speak in English from the stage? I doubt it, it seems like its just a ticket to Kanada......we need people born and raised abroad to become granthis. These smelly pindu granthis have caused so much sh+t over here and they don't know anything about real life here. They bring the same old mentality over here, and all they really want is to get permanent status and hump the gori's (or anyone else they can get there hands on), then they forget everything they have learned. I have seen it happen so many times I can't even count the hair on my ass. As far as I have seen they are mostly opportunistic, no real love to live and teach about Sikhi just want to make money and come abroad. These same granthis blab in the gurdwaras to do Kirat, but when they become permanent they leave the gurdwara's and go on welfare, what a double standard. They blab you should come to sangat regularily but when they are no longer granthis they are nowhere to be seen............not all are bad, but most if them are no better than the pindu working at walmart stocking toilet paper.

    The problem is that most of then are pindus who don't have half a brain, the only drive is money, which leads to problems. They haven't educated themselves and don't themselves believe 90% of the stuff they are preaching.

    WOW, you have a lot of hate for people from the Pends don't you?

  4. Arms training to Dera Sacha Sauda followers

    Alarmed, SGPC wants govt to act tough

    Tribune News Service

    Amritsar, July 8

    The SGPC and Akal Takht today expressed concern over reports that the Dera Sacha Sauda was reportedly providing arms training to its followers at its headquarters in Sirsa.

    Talking to The Tribune, SGPC Chief Avtar Singh Makkar asked why those who claim to be spreading religion needed a private army.

    He said that the Centre had sent out a stern warning to Baba Ramdev who had announced his plan to raise an army of his 11,000 followers a few days earlier. “Similarly, the government should act tough against Dera Sacha Sauda too.”

    Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Gurbachan Singh said the SGPC should take the issue seriously and should raise it with the state as well as the Union Government.

    “Today, this dera is raising a private army. Tomorrow, others may follow suit. This is not a good sign,” he said adding that the government should act immediately on the matter.

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110709/punjab.htm#1

  5. lol there are no words in gurbani that mean "God". If Gurus used the abrahamic term "God" in gurbani then they would easily be able to prove any bani was written by Britishers or Christians

    I think people use the term "God" for lack of a better word in English. Singh2 is probably one of the most knowledgeable Singhs out there when it comes to the topic of Sri Dasam Granth Jee. I've even put a quote of his on my signature at the bottom.

  6. Yes, indeed Sikhs are the worst enemies of Sikhi themselves. Yes Janamsakhis might be wrong because they want to show Sikhi as superior, but what will Marathi Granths gain by lying about Bhagat Naamdev meeting Guru Nanak?

    Janamsakhis are hagiographical accounts but not completely wrong. But can we discard all of them as being completely false? We could use Mehervaan Janamsakhi to show that Guru Nanak Ji did have long hair, this would be a reply to all the people saying that Guru Nanak didn't keep Kes.

    I know we shouldn't believe in things blindly, but here you got many proofs. I will still try to get more information on the Marathi granths.

    The thing about Janam Sakhis is that maybe 10% may be incorrect, but that does not mean we should discard the rest of the 90%. That would amount to throwing the baby along with the bath water. Sikhs will be the first ones to argue fanatically against anything that shows or proves the greatness of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee or Sikhi over the rest. We like to claim, Sabb te vadda Satgur Nanak(SatGuru Nanak is the Greatest!), but in reality the Sikh Qaum does not beleive in this statement.

    ਇਸੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਇਨਾ ਬੇੜਾ ਗਰਕਿਆ ਹੈ| ਕਿਨੀ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਲਿਖੇ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਤੇ ਯਕੀਨ ਨਹੀਂ, ਮਗਰ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਗ਼ਰਿਬ (west) ਤੋਂ ਮੁਤਾਸਿਰ ਹੋਇਆ ਫੋਕਾ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਕੁਝ ਕਹੈ ਦਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਰਚੇ ਹੋਏ ਇਤਿਹਾਸਿਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਸੀਨੇ ਬਸੀਨੇ ਤੋਂ ਚਲੀ ਆ ਰਹੀ ਪਰੰਪਰਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਦ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ| ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਤੇ ਬਹਤ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ|

  7. When were Bhaghat Rasaimat Sindhu & Naamdev Jeevan Charitar written?

    Also keep in mind the context. These books are not biographies but rather hagiographies,.. Many people whom Guru Nanak are said to have meet during his udasis were'nt even alive when they meet. Bahlol for instance died in 800s while he is said to have meet Guru Nanak in the janam sakhis... They are not stories of two persons meeting, but allegories of two idelogies meeting, discussing and eventually sikhism comes out as the victor (ie. gurmat triumphs over Vaishvavism, Shaivism, Islam etc)..

    Sikhs are probably the only religious group which puts more faith in western academic or orientalist scholars than their own traditional oral and biographical history of their religious leader/founders. This is what has led Sikhs to even doubt whether or not Bhai Lalo was an actual person and this is precisely what has led many orientalist Sikhs to even deny the Panja Sahib Sakhi, Banghdad and Meccay wali Sakhi, Guru jee meeting with the Bhagats and even about the traditional Sikh account of Baba Deep Singh Jee's shaheedi.

    You will never see Christian doubting stories that show how great Jesus was like he walked on water, cured the sick etc.

    You will never see Muslim doubting traditional stories of Mohammad like him splitting the moon.

    You will never see Hindus doubting the existence of a man with a elephant head or monkey man.

    These are all far out mythical claims made by members of the Christian, Islamic and Hindu faiths. Yet Guru Nanak Dev Jee meeting with the Bhagats and giving them Naam is not even a miraculous story and is even supported by puraatan Sikh and nonSikh sources and that show the greatness of their Guru, yet you will see Sikhs showing the most opposition to these events.

    Wah Jee Wah!

  8. In regards to Bhagat Namdev Jee. The following was found on the Tapoban forum:

    Sri Bharadwaj says based on facts, ancient Marathi Granths such as Bhaghat Rasaimat Sindhu, Naamdev Jeevan Charitar, says Guru

    Nanak Mahaprabhu bhagat Nanak Swami and Naam Dev met at Kumar Teerathâ€. That is why Bharadwaj says “Bhagat Naamdev’s time period could not have been before Guru Nanak Jeeâ€. This opinion of Bharadwaj is based on research on old granths Naam Dev Charitar. In fact Bharadwaj has even written a book Gyanashwar v Gyan Dev in which he sites many sources and comes to the conclusion that Naamdev and Guru Nanak were contemporaries.

    Besides these, Meherwaans Janamsakhi mentions many of the Bhagats meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee at Ayodhya. Infact there was even a Gurdwara built in the memory of this meeting hundreds of years ago which still exists today. The Bhagat who were present in this meeting were Nama (Naamdev), Jai Dev, Trilochan, Ravidas, Sadhana, Dhana, Banee.

    We also have the oldest source of Gurbani, the Goindwal pothis saying: "ਕਬੀਰ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਗਤ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਬੇ ਕੇ"

  9. I don't know about mehervaan Janamsaakhi but we all know Janamsaakhi's are debatable

    here is Bhagat Namdev's Birth date from Hindu source

    Namdev was a contemporary of Jnanadev, the famous saint of Maharashtra, being his senior in age by about five years. He was born in 1269 A.D

    http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Sant_Namdev

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Are they also taking his Birth date from Macalifue?

    Yes, they are taking his birth date from Macouliff. Whenever you see their reference they always refer to Macouliff because Macouliff was considered a very great historian of his time.

    The greatest proof of Bhagat Namdev being of a later era is his own bani from this very famous shabad:

    ਹਲੇ ਯਾਰਾਂ ਹਲੇ ਯਾਰਾਂ ਖੁਸਿਖਬਰੀ ॥ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਂਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਂਉ ॥ ਨੀਕੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਿਗਾਰੀ ਆਲੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕੁਜਾ ਆਮਦ ਕੁਜਾ ਰਫਤੀ ਕੁਜਾ ਮੇ ਰਵੀ ॥ ਦ੍ਵਾਰਿਕਾ ਨਗਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਬੁਗੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਖੂਬੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਗਰੀ ਮੀਠੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਬੋਲ ॥ ਦ੍ਵਾਰਿਕਾ ਨਗਰੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੇ ਮਗੋਲ ॥੨॥ ਚੰਦੀ ਹਜਾਰ ਆਲਮ ਏਕਲ ਖਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਹਮ ਚਿਨੀ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸਾਂਵਲੇ ਬਰਨਾਂ ॥੩॥ ਅਸਪਤਿ ਗਜਪਤਿ ਨਰਹ ਨਰਿੰਦ ॥ ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸ੍ਵਾਮੀ ਮੀਰ ਮੁਕੰਦ ॥੪॥੨॥੩॥

    The text in bold translates to "Why are there Moghals in the holy city of Dwaarikaa? ||2||"

    The mughals did not arrive in India and establish their empire until 1526 when they defeated the Afghans at the battle of Panipat. This is also the time period of when Guru Nanak Dev Jee was physically on earth in bodily form.

    I would also like to point out that historically there was more than one Namdev. It is very much possible that the people confuse all the Namdevs as being the same person just as we confuse the first Baba Farid the Pathan to Baba Farid Sani.

  10. Won't you agree that most of the time it is only a Sikh that will say 'all religions lead to god'. Go on Facebook, you will see no Muslim leaving the religion box unfilled. But many times a Sikh will have 'all religions are good' 'i like all religions' etc. Why is that? Because we don't teach the importance of Sikhi. If all religions reached to God, what was need to create Sikhi? Bottomline is we don't discriminate and are tolerant of them, even fight for them if needed, BUT we don't accept their religious ideologies.

    True, since my childhood I was also taught that all religions are the same and all lead to the same place, and the example of the Bhagats was always cited as an example of this thought. Out of ignorance I believed this and even proudly state this in order to show what a great religion Sikhi is. Then once a Muslim friend of mine said to me:

    "if Sikhism believes that all religions are equal and the same, then what incentive does a Muslim, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist have to leave their religion and convert to Sikhism?"

    I was left speechless to say the least. Then I started to analyze Gurbani itself and seeing tukhs like Hindu Anna, Turku Kaana and the Savaiya from Rehras Sahib "Raam, Rahim, Puraan, Kuraan, Anekh kahe mat ek na manyo" started getting me to think that does Sikhi beleive that all religions are the same? or is there more to this.

    If Sikhi does not offer anything new or unique than any other religion out there, were our ancestors who left Hindu dharm for Sikh dharm, were they all fools? Surely not, they saw the uniqueness and greatness of Guru Nanak Dev Jee and realized the truth.

  11. I am still in double mind.It looks to me that some Bhagats met Guru Nanak and adopted Gurmat but others if accepted that they were original were in Not in time of Guru Nanak

    Saint Namdev

    1270 A.D - 1350 A.D

    http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/namdev.html

    Also Sikh history .com puts the date of Kabir ji's Demise much earlier than Guru Nanak was born

    Saint Kabir 1398 A.D - 1448 A.D

    Saint Kabir Das (kabir, Arabic for "great", dasa, Sanskrit for "slave" or "servant"), is widely acknowledged as one of the great personality of the Bhakti movement in North India. He was as is widely acknowledged born in Year 1398 A.D.(71 years before Guru Nanak). Kabirpanthis (followers of Kabir) say that he lived upto the age of 120 years and give date of his death as 1518, but relying on the research of Hazari Prased Trivedi, a British Scholar Charlotte Vaudenville is inclined to lend credence to these dates and has prooven that 1448 is probably the correct date of Saint Kabir's demise.

    http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/kabir.html

    so again If Bhagat Namdev of GGS was the original Marathi Bhagat of 13th 14 th century then theory of all Bhagats meeting Guru Nanak and Becoming Sikhs could be debatable

    Anyway I don't found anything wrong in this propa ganda as to Younger generation we can tell them that Bhagats were Sikhs so other religions may not be manipulate their thinking

    These birth dates are based on Max Arthur Macouliff's guess over a 100 years ago. We already have puraatan Sikh and non Sikh sources stating that the Bhagats had met with Guru Nanak Dev Jee, so the birth dates given given by Macouliff can be discarded from this discussion. Even the birth dates given by Macouliff from logical stand point do not make sense if you bring in other historical factors.

  12. Does'nt this vaar say that Ramanand was the Guru of Kabir?

    http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/10/pauri/15/line/3

    This section of the Vaars deal with events from the lives of the Bhagats of the Bhagti movement and even the Bhagats of the previous Yugas. These events give spiritual moral lesson to the readers. They are called Dhrishtaants. These Dhristaants inspire the reader to also be as spiritually eager as the Bhagats. The eagerness of Bhagat Kabir jee presented in this story is inspirational and shows that Sikhs should also be as eager if they want to achieve spiritual heights. The Vaars are full of Dhristaants from start to end.

  13. They should also learn how to counter missionaries of Abrahmic and Hindu faiths.

    True. but they should also be given a course on how to counter the Kala Afghanists. These communistic minded Sikhs are the ones who are causing the most damage right now and are dividing the Panth.

  14. Discussion 1: Bhagat Kabir and Guru Nanak.

    * Met in Ayodhya, Uttar Pradesh. (Proof: Mehervaan Janamsakhi and Gurdwara Guru Ka Bagh)

    * Met in Nanak Kuan, Maghar, Uttar Pradesh. (Proof: local legend, upcoming Gurdwara in memory of meeting)

    * Met in Amarkantak, Madhya Pradesh. (Proof: Kabir Chabutra - place where Bhagat Kabir meditated and met Guru is preserved )

    In addition that that:

    *Giani Gian Singh Nirmala's Twareek Guru Khalsa also confirms Guru jee meeting with the Bhagats.

    *Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwalay also confirms this. His Gurmat vidhya lineage goes all the way back to Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

    ----------------------

    I agree with you on the point that it can be quite possible that there may have been more than one historical Jaidev just as it is confirmed that their were more than one Naamdev.

  15. According to the following link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarkantak#Kabir_chabutra_.28the_platform_of_saint_Kabir.29

    Kabir chabutra (the platform of saint Kabir)

    It is an old belief that the great saint Kabir performed austerities here and achieved spiritual powers. It is therefore a holy place for the Kabir panth sect. The local people, the Panikas, consider Kabir Chabutara as one of the holiest places of the Kabirpanthis because Sant Kabir spent many years here in meditation.At this very place Kabir and Nanak met and discussed spiritual matters and introduced the way of better living for human being. It is also the meeting point of three districts, Anuppur and Dindori districts of Madhya Pradesh and Bilaspur district of Chhatisgarh. There is also a Kabir waterfall here.

    These are places that are known to Kabir Panthis. We Sikhs do not even know of these places. Just imagine the unknown portions of Sikh Guru history we are yet to discover.

    Sab Te Vadda Satgur Nanak!

  16. I heard Bhagat Bani Itihas has been written by Gyani Kirpal Singh after much research. I'd really like to read that book, seems very interesting. He researched old birs, went to the Bhagats native places etc. Next time I go Punjab I'll get it for sure.

    Try to get your hands on Giani Gurdit Singh's book on Ithihas Bhagat Bani. That is probably the best and most well researched book on this topic. Giani Jee leaves no stone unturned to prove that the Bhagats were not only contemporaries of Guru Nanak Dev Jee but also took Naam from him. It is the (Dhur Ki)Bani after they took Naam from Guru Nanak Dev Jee that was included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. While the Bani that they wrote before getting Naam from Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee was not included and is not considered Dhur Ki Bani by the Sikhs.

    I remember Bijla Singh of Sikh Sangat forum wrote some excellent posts regarding this issue.

  17. Sikhs are rediscovering lost chapters of their history. According to older Sikh sources, the Bhagats met with Guru Nanak Dev Jee and even got Naam from him. But when the British took over their historian Max Arthur Macouliff disregarded old held traditions of the SIkhs and asserted that the Bhagats were not even contemporaries of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. So it is our choice, whether we want to believe in British created history or traditional Sikh history based on primary(puraatan) Sikh sources.

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110508/punjab.htm

    Nanak Kuan gets a gurdwara

    * Denizens of Maghar town near Gorakhpur in UP believe that Guru Nanak Dev and saint Kabir met at Maghar.

    * When Guru Nanak visited the place, it was reeling under a drought. So he got a well constructed which is known as Nanak Kuan.

    * Even though there are no Sikhs in Maghar, a large number of persons have faith in Guru Nanak and are known as Nanak Panthis.

    * Earlier, the Nanak Kuan Gurdwara had 2.5 acres in its name, but there was no building.

    * Gurdwara building to be ready in a few months. Text: Perneet Singh

    pun1.jpg

  18. Here is another one from the thread

    “Actually various Janamsakhis do mention the Bhagats meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jeeâ€

    Please can you give real references as I have never seen Jenam Sakhi’s which show all the Bhagats meeting Guru Nanak. Whilst we know Guru Nanak visited Ayodha and a Gurdwara exists there now we do not have any proof that he met all the Bhagats mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji there.

    I have never read any Jenam Sakhi in which Bhagats Trilochan, Dhana, Ravidas etc held discourses with Guru Nanak, surely such a thing occurring would be recorded at least by Bhai Gurdas. What discussions are recorded of Bhagat Ravidas for example having with Guru Nanak, what updesh was given to them? If Guru Nanaks discussions with the Sidhs are recorded why aren’t his discussions and teachings to the Bhagats recorded (perhaps they never occured).

    Just because Guru Nanak visited Ayodha where he debated with many holy men we cannot assume that every Bhagat mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji was there, and that they all became Sikhs. Just think about it, if every single Bhagat in Guru Granth Sahib Ji met Guru Nanak and became his Sikhs at Ayodha would they have not visited their Guru again for instance at Kartarpur where Guru Nanak settled. Or did they all just meet Guru Nanak once and then didn't bother to visit their Guru ever again??? This contradicts their own Bani's in Guru Granth Sahib Ji

    While you mention meetings with Kabir Ji and Bhagat Pipa you fail to account for the rest of the Bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Concerning Bhagat Ravidas you have given some dates concerning his life period but no evidence for him meeting Guru Nanak. Are we to assume he was in the crowd at Ayodha; then again we can always say the Bhagats were there in the crowd in Medina, Mecca and any where else Guru Nanak went as well...

    a reply to this post was:

    Singh Jee

    Just because something is not mentioned in Bhai Gurdas Jee’s Varaa does not mean it did not occur. Bhai Gurdas Jee never accounted for every single story from Guru Jee’s life. The primary focus of Bhai Gurdas Jee’s varaa is not Janamsakhis but to describe Gurmat philosophy from Gurbani. That is why it is called the “key†to understanding Gurbani.

    I have already given “real†references by mentioning Granths, commemtaries, and Janamsakhis which mention Guru Nanak Dev Jee meeting with various Bhagats. For example, I mentioned Mehervaan’s Janamsakhi telling us about the meeting which occurred at Ayodhya. This Janamsakhi specifically mentions the names of the Bhagats Nama (Naamdev), Jai Dev, Trilochan, Ravidas, Sadhana, Dhana, Banee all meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee.

    I told you about the commentaries written by Bhagat Pipa Jee’s nephew which also mention how Guru Nanak met with Bhagat Pipa Jee.

    Besides this, I have already mentioned to you that the Kabir Panthi Granths mention Guru Nanak Dev Jee meeting with Bhagat Kabir Jee. As I mentioned in my previous post, the first Kabir Panthi Dharam Daas also mentions Guru Nanak Dev Jee meeting with Bhagat Kabir Jee in his writings. Puraatan Granths “Kabir Mansoor†also confirm that this meeting did take place.

    I don’t understand what “real†references did I not mention to you in the first place. I had already given to you the names of men close to the Bhagats, granths mentioning these meetings.

    The reason I wanted to prove to you that Bhagat Ravidas Jee was a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee is because in your previous post you said they were not even contemporaries. So the reason I mentioned Mira Bhai follower of Bhagat Ravidas Jee was to prove that Bhagat Ravidas Jee was in fact a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. As I have mentioned before in Mahervaan’s Janamsakhi, Bhagat Ravidas jee is mentioned as amongst the Bhagats who met with Guru Nanak Dev Jee at Ayodhya.

    Twareek Guru Khalsa (pg 80) also says “Namdev, Ravidas, Trilochan, Parsaa & Haso Rai, Dharam Daas (both followers of Kabir Ji), Nitya Nand (was a follower of Ramanand) all met Guru Jee.

    A Granth belonging to Ravidas Panthis mentions an interesting story in page 435â€

    “Mardhana was with Guru Nanak Jee when visiting Banaras (Kaashi). The Brahmans and Khatris of Kaashi said to Guru Nanak Jee “You have visited that low caste Chamar Ravidas, when we (the high caste) are not even suppose to get touched by their mere shadow. Hearing this, Guru Nanak said to them:

    NEECHA UNDAR NEECH JAAT, NEECHI HU AT NEECH||

    JITHAY TIN KAY SANG SAAT, VADIYA SIO KIA REES||

    JITHAY JEECH SAMALIAN, THITHAY NADIR TERI BAKSHISH|| (siri raag M, 1 -15)

    All this proves that the Bhagats whose Bani is in Guru Granth Sahib Jee were not only contemporaries of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, but had met Guru Nanak Dev Jee personally.

  19. The bhagats are not mentioned as Sikhs of Guru Nanak in the 11th vaar of Bhai Gurdaas nor are any of the sakhis in the Vaaran about their lives any way related to Guru Nanak.

    Bhai Gurdas Dhian Varaan is not a Janamsakhi type scripture which presents jeevan sakhis of the Gurus or Bhagats. The saakhis that are mentioned in Bhai Gurdas Dhian Varaan are only used as Dristhaants.

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