Mithar

Japji Sahib Katha in English. This is excellent. Wish more and more Kathakar can be trained in the west to impart Gurmat to the next generation. Damdami Taksal should set up their branches in western countries where western born Sikhs can train in Gurmat and become Kathakars and Gianis.

Look at where we are at right now......

I noticed most of what we've got has got that strange Indian 'goofy' quality to it? But that is me talking from a degree of western enculturisation.

Those cartoon movies were pretty good. They are made for children. My brother's children love them.

Another issue that was touched needs to be addressed. Sikhs were instrumental in the downfall of the Mughal empire. Many give all the credit to the Marathas only. But as historian Hari Ram Gupta noted(and mentioned by HSD), the Sikhs were located in Punjab. The lifeline of the Mughal army was the Muslim soldiers from the North West beyond India's borders in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

The tough Pathan and Turkic warriors from these areas was what made the Mughal army fearless of the Hindu warriors, which is why they were called the lifeline of not only the Mughal army but of the Mughal empire itself. Sikhs had blocked the access to India that these warriors would take to get into India which is Punjab. The Mughal army had to rely on indigenous(Indian) Muslims who were not tough enough to face the rugged Maratha warriors. The Indian Muslims were neither tough nor aggressive as the fearless Pathan and Turkic warriors. This is why the Indian Muslim kingdoms would literally beg the Afghans to invade India and replenish their ranks with fresh blood from central Asia.

Another thing to note is, the only reason why the Afghans(durranis) could not hold their Indian possession is because of the Sikhs. The Sikhs had not only deprived them of Punjab their richest province, but also all the land up to Delhi which the Afghans had conquered. Sikhs began looting the looters(Afghans). Invasions of India were no longer profitable for Afghans. The misl period can rightly be said to be the most heroic period of the Sikhs after the Guru period. That is the period when Sikhs saw the worst genocidal persecution in it's history and the ultimate triumph over Muslims and eventually becoming masters of North India. It is that period of history which still inspired Sikhs to not give up on their dreams of freedom even though Sikh movement of independence was so brutally crushed during the early 90s.

In a Sikh discussion forum one should never insult another forum member or resort to name calling. People disagree with one another, we may not like that they disagree but we need to accept that and still act in a friendly, brotherly fashion because that is the Sikh thing to do.

I do agree that the Sikh army was a highly advanced military. Most people give credit of this to the Europeans that Maharaja Ranjit Singh hired, but according to Khushwant Singh the Sikh army was already a professionally advanced army because from the first treaty with the British and the defeat of the large Maratha armies at the hands of the smaller British army, Ranjit Singh realized the importance of having a profession army drilled in modern warfare so he began hiring Hindustani sepoys to leave their job with the British and work for him instead and in doing so they would train the Sikh army in modern warfare.

Before the first Europeans had arrived most of the territories of the Sikh kingdom had already been conquered. When the British gifted a cannon to Ranjit Singh, the Sikhs had successfully reproduced that cannon into the hundreds. In fact, they even managed to make modification and make it better than the British cannon. To make hundreds of cannons, you need indigenous industry. The world at the time may not have been highly industrialized, but the Sikh kingdom was certainly more advanced then any Asian country and just on it's way to matching the Europeans. If only Sikhs had conquered Sindh, then the Sikhs would have even had a navy and access to the sea.

Forget about apneean what about men ,SPN,Sikhchic,TLH even on SS and SA I encountered more men who believe in extreme gender similarity .They have been brainwashed so much by western society that they developed attitude don't say anything against woman .If a Girl comes to a site about what career to choose they just say do what you want even if she wants to enter dancing modeling,I several time ask them if you give this advice then what advice will give you to a sikh boy who wants to become hero or something for which he has to abandon his turban,most of time there is defening silence.

I must say that i appreciate muslim men which has not sacrificed their masculinity and are not get brainwashed by this Liberal gender similiarity,is it any wonder all over the world There thousands of cases Non muslim women running with them

I totally agree. Sikh men have become so liberal and outright fudus(sorry, but it's true). It is not uncommon to see Sikh men defending and supporting homosexuality as being an okay thing to do for Sikhs. I think the biggest threat to Sikhi today is western liberalism. It's like we are becoming liberal for all the wrong things such as loose moral(slutty) character of our girls, while the things that we should become liberal about such as caste we are not loosening up on that issue.

This is shocking. India has 4 million prostitutes, 40% are children!

When life is rigorous and involves daily hard physical work like rural work would entail in undeveloped or semi-developed environments, it stands to reason that people in such contexts develop a robust attitude to towards physical hardships and and an indifference to austerities. However, when the same people stop doing the said work (say due to new technology or cheap labour) and start to live in luxury, would they retain the characteristics that made them tough?

It's not that the Punjabi villager no longer does work. He does do work. I have relatives who leave for the fields early in the morning when it is still dark and they return home in the evening. In general, the rural people are mentally tough, the Bhaya labour and machinery makes their work easier, but farming is still pretty tough/hard work. During the 80s and early 90s, Punjabi farmers had agricultural machinery, and Bhaya labour, yet thousands of young men rose to become Kharkoos.

But ultimately it was the will of Vaheguru that the Sikh movement did not succeed this time. But the blood of Shaheeds cannot just go to waste like this.

There is lot difference between saying and doing.May be they are not afraid of war but the question is UK army fight against whom ? where odds are in the their favour 9:1 .Also if they join army they will get proper training

Army always train their youth for all condition

but what about communities like us which don't have army? If you read my post in this subject I already said that if you train urban people or NRI's then they can fight.But the question where we are going to train them,WE don't have country of our own

One thing that cannot be denied is that Anglo countries do have very good armies. In fact, even other European countries like the French military and Russian military are pretty strong, their soldiers are as tough as hell. In Muslim countries, only Turkey can be considered to have a good military, better then most European militaries. Pakistan's military isn't too bad either. The rest of the Muslim countries have unprofessional armies. But Muslims are good in guerrilla warfare though, Chechens and Pathans being primary examples.

When it comes to guerrilla warfare, the rural people are usually always the backbone of the guerrilla army or militia. It could be because rural folks are mentally tougher, they don't need some special military trainer to make them mentally read for warfare.

There is no solution.

Kaj rau hai anjum

when the stars become angry towards us it is best to sit in the earth and pour dust on our heads and utter cries of lamentation.

A machine is wound up, it cannot be unwound but must complete its movement.

Only pure tyagis who are out of maya can influence maya and do things

Anything else is just an unconscious movement of the machine, dictated by external accidents.

The whole world moves in chakers

which is why the movement always turns into its opposite.

Movements for peace turn into wars

Movements to un-westernise apneean will cause more westernised apneean

To complete a movement in a straight line you have to be a Siddha, which means 'he who completes his aim'

If you are not a Siddh Purush then you will always go in circles in chakers. The thing you want to accomplish will turn into its opposite. This is the rule.

Sometimes an aim will be achieved but this will be by accident not conscious design.

Always love reading your posts. Such deep thoughts.

Atleast I never heard of any famous foreign born Kharkoo who was arrested or died.Even Urban Sikhs hardly joined the movement,the one who joined were after 1984 riots.I don't understand why is it difficult for you to accept that one which is raised in UK,USA or Canada could hardly fight on ground level unless properly trained ,even Urbanites of India cannot fight on ground level as they all are raised with kids gloves.Only hardcore pendu's are fit to fight and that too which had lived a tough life,so as long as these backward people are part of community we can fight unfortunately ,backwards are declining while the so called forward are increasing

you have made some excellent points in this post.

So you would be happy for female members of your family to dress in this way?

Sorry for being provocative but what you say does not make sense. Man is made to be attracted to woman. There is an art known as shringaar or eroticism when women will dress in ways to stimulate men. This is all well and good in its correct sphere of usage. This lady is dressed in a way that most males would find very attractive. The image she is giving out by wearing this dress is not in harmony with what she is talking about. This is an issue of correct manners. It is akin to mixing whisky with pure milk.

Most western people have become dense and thick with regards to what things are correct and incorect. A normal pendu is on higher level then most westerners because they still have inherent morality and instinctively know good from bad, even though because of prevelant trends and internal weakness they follow the bad. Westerners have had this organ of natural morality removed and they think this is a real advance because they are not affected by things as simple people are. Well i say westerners aren't affected by things because they have become dense and thick, but in a clever way. The mental organ of westerners has become insenstive or desensitized, which is why they cannot perceive wrong things, because they are not sufficently aware of their own surroundings, they live in an intellectual mist, and their feelings are atrophied. Morality and manners come predominantly from feelings not intellectualisations.

excellent post.

In regards to what KDS is saying, he has also made a good point. If she wants to dress that way in her private life or at work then fine, but when talking about a subject related to Sikhism, she as a Sikh woman should at least have the sense to dress appropriately. Strangely even white women will not dress like that when talking about Sikhism. I have seen Nagar Kirtans and Gurdwaras through out Canada inviting women politicians from the white community to speak on special occasions and even they don't dress like that. What is wrong with apneean?

In western countries you get jatt sikhs who hate jatts because they have been preached that by "sikhi" preachers. Whatever you're taught sometimes sticks when you are young.

London Dha Jatt Jee, were you a Jatt in all your previous lifetimes? can you say for certain that you were even a Punjabi in your previous lifetimes? for all you know, you (like me) could have been a Chura or Chamar or Chandaal or Brahmin or even a Chinese man or woman? This body is very temporary which we(Soul) wear and discards like cloths. The body and the caste associated with the body will eventually become ash. Then your soul (based on it`s karmas) will get another body which for all we know might not even be a body belonging to the Jatt caste. So what use it is being proud of being Jatt? If you need to be proud, then feel proud of our Gurus, Bhagats and Shaheeds and try to emulate their extraordinary Jeevans.

With the exception of Bhagat Dhana Jee, none of the Bhagats were Jats. As a humble Sikh would you not sacrifice yourself just to get a chance to bow to the charan dhoor of Bhagat Kabir Jee (a Julaha) or Bhagat Ravidas Jee (a Chamar) or would your proud Jattness prevent you from doing that?

There is nothing as forward or backward its just a state of mind.The so called forward people can only talk While it is the backward one who go and actually do the work.

Just a question How many kharkhoos that were taking revenge of 84 were from outside India? Oh Yeh they were supporting the movement but only through money

Some young Sikhs from Canada did go to India and even became Shaheeds.

Well its based on an actual scene as seen by the man who developed the lithograph. The British themselves often refer to how unconservative most indian societies, including sikhs, tended to be. What surprises me is that the usual suspects who claim sikhs are only prudish AKJ types because of the victorians havent all jumped on KDS's back.

Orientalism is a subject many eastern people need to be aware of because we automatically assume western orientalist depiction of eastern peoples (which are usually overly exotic) in nature to be true and accurate.

Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCOSkXR_Cw

I never said pinds are composed of only one caste, but the fact is that most pinds in Punjab have inhabitants (the majority) of one caste and then there are a few families who don't belong to the majority.

I am against using family names as your lastname because your family name reveals your caste/or the caste you use to belong to. There's a reason why Guru Gobind Singh Jee told men to have Singh as their lastname and women Kaur. By using Singh and Kaur you're "anonymous", no one knows about your background. We all know that we're going to discriminate people based upon their family name.

Like I said before, if I told you my family name or the name of my dadke or nanke pind you would know about my background.

There are exceptions in my view where it would be a good idea for someone not to keep their village name. Take a look at this news report of villagers whose village name is like a curse itself:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110126/punjab.htm#5

GKaur, not a single village in Punjab is composed of only one caste. Especially ex Muslim villages have much variety. Best way is to use family name and not discriminate based upon caste. Why are you guys so phobic about it, nothing wrong with it.

Well Dal I have always heard Khatri (Baniya) and Kshatriya not being same. Some say they are though.

Khatris are not Baniyas. These are two distinct castes. Khatris of Punjab were the ancient Kshatriyas of India that we read about in the ancient epics of India. This warrior community over time left their historical (warrior) profession and become merchants and shop keepers. It was to such Khatris that Guru Nanak Dev Jee writes: Khatrian ta dharam chodiya, malech bhakhia gahi (SGGSJ-Ang663).

Our Gurus (who were also Khatris) created a community where anyone whether they be farmers, barbers, wood workers, shop keepers, priests can all abandon their birth caste based distinctions and become warriors the likes of which India has never seen, which is known as the Khalsa.

Associating our selves with our caste we are associating with something impermanent. Our caste is only here till this lifetime. Our previous lifetimes and future lifetimes who knows what our caste or race or even species was. But Khalsa is eternal. If you are a faithful hukmi Khalsa, then you will be a Khalsa in all future lifetimes regardless of what caste or race you were born in. So it is ones choice whether they want to associate with the caste or race of the body which is impermanent, temporary and only bound to the current lifetime, or to the Khalsa which is everlasting.

The Atma has no caste or race only the body does. A Sikhs is suppose to realize this fact and not associate with the impermanent body to which the caste or race belongs to. We need to uplift our Atmik Jeevan rather then associating with associating with somethings so materialistic as one`s caste or race.

Lets cut off her legs!! Yeah that'll teach her.

Oh BTW

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35088277@N05/3256249868/

What's up with those women on the balcony?

That is classical orientalist art. Look for them online, they always make eastern peoples look the same.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, what I meant was that there are jatt pinds where the majority of the inhabitants are jatts and then a few other non-jatt families, there are tarkhan, julaha, chamar, khatri pinds etc. The names of the pinds are not based on castes, but most people know that x pind is a jatt pind, y pind is a tarkhan pind etc.

To give you an example: Near my nanke pind there's a pind called Skoper, and everyone know that it's a jatt pind. So if someone had Skoper as their lastname everyone would know he/she is a jatt.

I hope it makes sense.

not all the inhabitants of a Pind belong to a particular caste. India`s villages are multi caste villages. Some pinds, the jats may be a majority, doesn't mean everyone from that pind is a Jat. There`s a famous pind in Jalander where Chamars are 90% of the inhabitants, and only a few Jat families. I know one guy from that Pind who is a Jat by caste, but he isn`t a Chamar just because he comes from a Pind which is 90% Chamar and no one mistakens him for being a Chamar either.

Another example is Badal. Badal is the pind of Prakash Singh Badal who is a Jat. But his former agriculture minister Gurdev Singh Badal who also uses `Badal` next to his name is not a Jat, yet no one says Gurdev Singh is from Badal village so he must also be a Jat. Historically, Sikhs (of all castes) have always used the name of their Pinds as an alternative last name since using the Pinds name is neutral and does not denote one`s caste affiliation.

The problem is that pinds are based on castes, we have jatt pinds, tarkhan pinds etc. and in the pinds there are few other families who don't belong to the same caste as the majority.

If I used my nanke or dadke pind as my lastname people would still know what background I used to have.

Pinds are not named after castes. There are exceptions though, like some pends have the same name as the inhabitants of the Pind. For example, I have seen some Pinds called Gillan where many Gills and most of the inhabitants are Gills. Another example is a Pind in Gurdaspur named Virk, even though nearly all the people living in the Pind are Kahlons. So if those Kahlons were to use their Pinds name, then they would become Virks LOL

But 99% of the Pinds of Punjab are not named after last names or caste. During the olden times, Sikhs of all castes would use their Pind's name. Even during the militant movement of the 80s and 90s, all the Sikh militants would use the name of their Pinds, the only exception being the Babbars who would add "Babbar" to their name. Just look at the example of the Damdami Taksal Sants. Even though it was Sant Sundar Singh Jee who was from Bhinderkalan, but to this day all the Sants of Damdami Taksal add "Bhindranwala" to their name even though they are not even from Bhinderkalan.

For a Sikh, his caste has no place. In western countries one cannot discard their last names because then there would be thousands of people with the same name as you. The preferable alternative would be for Sikhs of all castes to rather use the names of their Pinds/village/ilaaka which is actually the historical norm amongst the Sikhs rather then their gotra/caste based last name.

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How are the headscarves of the ladies going to get in the way of them playing football? This is another bull$hit rule that dumb goray have managed to make. This is the kind of rule which will make Muslims militant because they will feel they are against the wall and have no other choice but to become more defensive.

I personally think that SMC santhia is very lazy. You don't have to put the effort in to get the correct sounds out of your mouth.

Even amongst the respected schools you will find differences, such as DDT and Harkowal wale sant's pronounciation.

How is the bindi-nasal sound school lazy? you need to put a lot of effort to know where to pronounce the visheshdhunis(bindi) and nasal sounds where as the Sampradai school pronounce it as it is written with the lagamatra, effort is not needed since you simply do ucharan of all the lagmatra and pronounce none of the visheshdhunis. Also I don't think that the school of ucharan which pronounce visheshdunis and nasal sounds are all SMC. A lot of non SMC Sikhs also use the same school of ucharan and do not agree with the SMC.

regardless of which school of ucharan one follows, they are all beautiful in their own way. Both have very convincing reasons for their schools.

To solve disputed matters only Akal takht has authority but whenever something goes against the belief of a follower of sect then he become the first person to say "who is Akal Takht my sect is right"

what sikhs need to accept diversity and authority of Akal takht over disputed matters

Couldn't agree more.

On a serious note, Punjabis need to learn that it is not good and/or healthy to be fat and they need to start thinking what they put in their pateelay. In most homes it's too much oil, butter, salt and other unhealthy ingredients which can lead to cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, diabetes and apoplexy, just to mention a few.

True. Almost every Punjabi family has at least one member who has diabetes(which they call "shoogar" in Punjabi).