BhagatSingh

Mala is an ancient device for keeping track of time (amongst other things).
In Guru Granth sahib, you will never hear Guru Sahibs say "meditate for 20 minutes" or "24 hours" or "meditate around the clock".
There were no clocks.
Their unit of measuring time was breath "meditate Shwas Giraas" meditate with every breath and every swallow, which translates to "meditate all the time".
Their unit of measuring time was the positioning of the sun "meditate Atth peher", which translated to "meditate 24 hours" or "meditate around the clock"
This is how tehy said to meditate all the time.
So what about specific amounts of time like "meditate for 20 minutes". Well that is done with a Mala. And it's a rough unit of measurement. It's your own personal unit of measurement.
Suppose - When you count on a mala, you can see that if you do 101 Malas that it goes from afternoon to evening, (roughly 3 hours in modern age).
So when you sit down with your eyes closed and going into a state of being, which is a state where you cannot keep track of time. Then you can rely on your Mala. You can do 101 Malas and you will know only 3 hours will pass by. 
You can focus on maintaining state, instead of worrying about time.
Can you imagine if you sit down to attempt samadhi and the whole day goes by because there are no clocks or alarms to tell you, you've been in smadhi for far too long? You will miss the day's work and all the chores you need to do.

Do you know those saints who went into Samadhi for days? Some even went into samadhi until their death and became fossilized!
Can a Grihasti banda afford to go through that?
That's the functional and practical aspect of having a mala. It acts like a timer, like an alarm clock.

You are hearing it bro. Keep up the Bhagati.

I have switched to reading Gurmukhi almost entirely, and I use the Mahan Kosh to construct the meaning of the words. Occasionally taking helping from freed Kote wala teeka and sometimes from Prof Sahib Singh's teeka. I was finding a lot of problems with the English translation once I got to a certain depth hence why I switched.

Check out srigranth.org for all these documents.

It does.
That magic power is known as meditation.
Chaupai Sahib -
Sunai moord chit laye chaturta avaee.
Listening to this Chaupai, the ignorant will become intelligent.
One of the best ways to raise your IQ is to meditate, learn to focus and master your attention.
Meditate on this shabad from Sukhmani Sahib -
Prabh kai Simarani Riddhi Siddhi Nau Nidhi.
Prabh kai Simarani Gyan Dhyan Tatua Buddhi.
Simarani means "In Simaran" - in Remembrance.
In Remembrance of God, is the Spiritual treasures (Riddhi Siddhi) and Material treasures (Nau Niddhi).
In Remembrance of God, is Knowledge (Gyan), Meditation (Dhyan), Essence (Tatua) and Intelligence (Buddhi).

Yes there's that sampardya started by Ustad Nar Singh ji Narayan. :P
I honestly don't know of any sampradya except for that one. I don't follow any of them.
PS you ignored the code I cracked on the existence of silent letters. In the above post, I (he) explained why these silent letters exist and the purpose they serve in pronunciation. This is true not only in Gurbani and but also in English as well, but that's a different topic.

I dunno if air can be mastered first. But I know it is very easy to tap into air, connect with it, and have it respond to your connection.

In this video, Michael is demonstrating his connection with the air around him.
 

Well I'll give you the short answer first - if you read past the mool mantar, Guru Nanak says that everything is a form of God. You, me, the oceans, the trees, the specs of sand on the beach to the specs of light in the cosmos. What does this mean?
This is an inner experience people have where they see the "oneness" of everything, they see God radiating through everything including themselves as this One Being, Purakh.

Dally got me hooked on The Walking Dead series. Been reading the compendiums. 2 down, 1 more left to go.

​I seriously doubt it. In Guru Granth Sahib it is quite clear that Guru Nanak Dev ji is the incarnation of Hari. Any other other theory is a misunderstanding of this.
Are you sure you are reading them correctly?
Well "sound like hinduism" is not a good reason to reject anything. The concept of Atma "sound like Hinduism" but is a crucial concept in Guru Granth Sahib.
Guru Nanak Dev ji being an incarnation of Hari "sound like Hinduism" but it's mentioned again and again in Guru Granth Sahib.

Now Paapiman has presented no evidence. Caste is not evidence of reincarnation.

But hypothetically It is quite possible that caste is carried over to some degree. Especially if you consider that reincarnation maybe a method of learning and advancement of a soul. So the soul might want to pick a similar environment to advance in. If you change environments now it has to spend time learning the environment rather than focusing on its own purpose.
I wouldn't say it is restricted geographically... rather people from one geographical region or culture want to reincarnate back in to that region and culture. Where would you want to reincarnate to after you die? In some random culture you've never even heard of before? whom you can't even identify with?

So for this reason as well caste maybe preserved as that individual may want to do the same kinds of things as they did in previous births. It's goes against the idea that caste is oppression, doesn't it? Does someone actually like being a Ghumeyar, potter? Of course!

And often times when there is evidence of reincarnation you can only look so far until you find a match between the dead person and the newborn. So it's the nature of evidence itself that is restricted as well.

Adi Guray Namah
Yugadi Guray Namah
Satyeguray Namah
Shri Gurdevay Namah

Anything can have a spiritual significance if you give it spiritual significance. If you don't give any spiritual significance then no matter how spiritually significant it is, it won't have any spiritual significance.

Now about why people use them:
Dhoof smells good and when you are trying to minimize distractions then it helps to mask bad odours with good ones. Smell plays a huge part as it can subconsciously irritate us or ease us. We want to be at ease when meditating and so dhoof helps with that.

Mala is a timer. Back then they didn't have watches and clocks that went beep beep. So they counted time on their mala. They knew 108 beads with X rotations of the mala = Y hours (for them it was position of the sun). The hand can easily tell when the mala completes a rotation because of the fluffy bit or big bead depending on what mala you use. And so you can train yourself to automatically keep track of time while you meditate deeply with your eyes closed.

So are you missing out? You won't know until you try them. Do the 30-day test.

Ragmaala I agree that common usage is negative. I'm glad you are aware of that since that was the point I was trying to make. So cool... carry on I guess.

Just one thing before you do.
 

I think you are quite learned and I think you are probably aware of this, so this is more of a rant than anything...
when people read - "Veds cannot grasp God" - they think Gurbani rejects Veds completely.
when people read - "Rituals are useless" - they think Gurbani rejects rituals completely.

What is missing here is understanding of the full story.

What is the full story?
"Ved cannot grasp God... because nobody can! God cannot be grasped, He can only be tasted and that too by a consciousness, by your own individual, not by someone else's book or someone else's words."
"Rituals are useless... if God is not on your mind and in your heart, while you are doing the ritual."

So reading the full shabad you mentioned, Guru Arjun Dev ji says "Mantar tantar are like ashes... the real deal is getting God in your mind and heart"  ਅਉਖਧ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਤੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਛਾਰੁ ...  ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰੁ ਰਿਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰੁ

Recognize the importance of having Parmatma in the ritual, without which the ritual is akin to ashes.

That's the full story.

They are relying on faulty english translations. And ironically they take things out of context to make their argument.
I'll give you two examples.

I've posted on this before so will quote myself here.

In response to point 1. This is faulty english translation.

In fact, it wasn't only Bhagat Kabir. The Gurus and Bhagats and Sikhs whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib were all vegetarians.


Point 3 is in fact talking about killing. Bismil and Halaal are referring to killing rather than sacrifice. Instead of adding context the article removes context.
The context to this is another shabad by Kabir sahib that talks about killing animals.

He says it bluntly, it is wrong to kill animals.




Again this is a faulty English translation. He is not referring to the Mullah's beliefs. He is in fact saying that the Mullah is wrong and he should contemplate Ved and Kateb.
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
Do not say Ved and Kateb, false are those who do not contemplate them.
ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
When they (Ved and Kateb) say that there is Khudai/divinity in all beings, then why do you kill chickens?


Bhagat Kabir ji says it again and again in different ways, and using all kinds of rhetoric, but the underlying argument is the same - It is wrong to kill animals.

Bingo

In all these cases people always assume the woman is an innocent little angel, and everyone jumps on the bandwagon to bash the guy.
Exactly what happened in this thread.

Singh you are the only one who expressed that maybe the woman did something. I applaud you.

Dally I think the bani is meant to inspire people to train. I think most people know that they are not going to be able to actually fight unless they train themselves.

If they don't know that they'll learn it soon enough.

@IJJSingh
Short Answer-

One one hand - Parm Atma is under the influence of Maya. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥
But on the other - Parm Atma is beyond Maya, who created Maya, and is the one who takes us out of the influence of Maya. ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
These seem like contradictory notions. It's like a paradox. It is resolved through studying one's inner experience. Because this is happening inside you right this moment. Right here, right now.
 
There is Parmatma in you under the influence of Maya, witnessing the world, and also outside the influence of Maya, completely hidden, inaccessible, invisible.
 
One way to understand this is to look at an Iceberg - It is under water and outside water at the same time.

Under the influence of Maya  v

Outside the Influence of Maya ^
 
Long Answer-
 

If you can feel their presence clearly (not maybe... but rather clear presence), then you have already had their darshan.
If you want to experience a clear presence or even more than a presence, then you should do bhagti.
Any spiritual phenomenon becomes more apparent through meditation and through strengthening your intention.
Strengthening attention and intention through devotion, that is bhagti.
Attention is the ability to focus on a single point and intention, is the willpower to move towards your goal.
One example of such a man who had these qualities is Sant Nam Dev ji.
Sant Nam Dev ji was being tortured by a sultan and was about to be killed.
However his bhagti was at such a high level that he manifested Akal Purakh sahib right there.
So you must develop a level of devotion that is somewhat comparable.

This is simply a misunderstanding of verses such as - ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਬਸੈ ॥ - and taking them out of context.
Everyone comes from the womb, even special people. And there is always intercourse of some kind that is involved in the creation process.
Even our father, Hari, is referred to as  -
ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ - one who has sex with Shri, matter, that which is material and physical has been penetrated by the spirit that is Hari. The universe is a mix of spiritual and physical. He is the spirit of the universe, the supreme consciousnss.
This is why he is known as the husband of Maya Lakshmi.
ਮਾਧਵ - ਮਾਯਾ ਦਾ ਧਵ/ ਪਤੀ - the one who is the husband of Maya/matter/
ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ - ਕਮਲਾ ਦਾ ਪਤਿ -  the husband of Kamla/ Lakshmi/ matter. The spirit is the husband of the material and physical.
 
This is why he is known as ਨਰਾਇਣ , one who dwells inside of man ਨਰ. And that which dwells in man dwells everywhere else as well. ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥
This is why he is known as the Pran Adhar, the basis of life. ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥ Narayan is the very base on which your life is seated, without Narayan, consciousness, there would be no experiences to be had.
 
ਆਪੇ ਅੰਡਜ ਜੇਰਜ ਸੇਤਜ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਆਪੇ ਖੰਡ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ ॥
Guru Sahib explains the ways Hari is born - (ਅੰਡਜ ਜੇਰਜ ਸੇਤਜ ਉਤਭੁਜ) consciousness is born in the eggs, born in the wombs, born in dampness, and sprouts up from the soil. He is the ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ - that one who dwells in all things. (ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ) He is in all the realms.
 
Hari penetrates everything.
 
So if Guru Sahibs are Hari swaroop ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥, then they too were born from the womb as Hari creates, were they not?

Guru Angad Dev ji prays -
ਮਾਤ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਦੇ ਤਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਾਖਨਹਾਰੇ ॥
In the mother's womb, you gave us your simran and protected us.

ਪਾਵਕ ਸਾਗਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਲਹਰਿ ਮਹਿ ਤਾਰਹੁ ਤਾਰਨਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Through the countless waves of the ocean of fire, please, carry us across and save us, O Savior Lord! ||1||
ਮਾਧੌ ਤੂ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ਧੋਰਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Madhav, you are are my master. You are my support here in this world and there in the next.

*Vegie Police raises gun and points at Kam*
"Sir please step away from the burgers!"
"but i am hungry..."
"SIR you have the right to remain silent. Please STEP AWAY from the burgers!"

I started reading it thinking it was from the time of Guru Hari Gobind ji and so I thought it would contain some of the his sayings from his time, however it turned out it was written much later.
In hindsight, "Patshahi 6" does give away its date as late 1700s. So 1840s is not too bad.

The word is Hari.
I always recommend that we add more vegetables to our diet and leave the siharis out.
Hari and Ram are two most common Mantras prescribed in Guru Granth Sahib.
Sarb dharam meh shresht dharam,
Hari ko naam jap nirmal karam.
Of all religions the highest religion,
is to chant the name of Hari and perform pure actions.
 
It comes from the Vaishnav tradition from an ancient Prayer called - "Thousand Names of the Omnipresent One" (Vishnu Sahasranama).
कालनेमिनिहा वीरः शौरिः शूरजनेश्वरः ।
त्रिलोकात्मा त्रिलोकेशः केशवः केशिहा हरिः ।। 69 ।।
kālaneminihā vīraḥ śauriḥ śūrajaneśvaraḥ |
trilōkātmā trilōkeśaḥ keśavaḥ keśihā hariḥ || 69 ||
642.
Kālanemi-nihā: One who destroyed the Asura named Kalanemi.
643.
Viraḥ: One who is courageous.
644.
Śauriḥ: One who was born in the clan of Sura as Krishna.
645.
Śūrajaneśvaraḥ: One who by his overwhelming prowess
controls even great powers like Indra and others.
646.
Trilōkātmā: One who in his capacity as the inner pervade is the
soul for the three worlds.
647.
Trilōkeśaḥ: One under whose guidance and command
everything in the three words is functioning.
648.
Keśavaḥ: By Kesha is meant the rays of light spreading within
the orbit of the sun.
649.
Keśihā: One who destroyed the Asura named Keshi.
650.
Hariḥ: One who destroys Samsara, that is, entanglement in the
cycle of birth and death along with ignorance, its cause.   Source - https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/vishnu/Sri_Vishnu.pdf

1. Firstly, you are going off topic on your original post, which was about 9 types of Bhagti. However, since this is related to our other discussions I will continue on in points 2 and 3.

2. Secondly, Prehlaad ji (Vishnu bhagat) was the one who talked about the 9 types of Bhagti. That's how it makes its way to Guru Granth Sahib.

Vishnu means "one who resides everywhere". Prehlaad ji is his bhagat.
Kabir ji says -  ਰਾਮ ਜਪਉ ਜੀਅ ਐਸੇ ਐਸੇ ॥ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਜਪਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ॥੧॥
Meditate on "Ram" the way, Dhruv (Vishnu bhagat) and Prehlaad (Vishnu bhagat) meditated on Hari/Vishnu.

Background -
In Vaishnav religions, Ram is another name of Vishnu/Hari. With the physical body of Ram being a vehicle of Vishnu/Hari/Ram.
Atma can unite with Vishnu/Ram - one who resides everywhere - though love.

Kabir ji says ਭੋਲੇ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਰਘੁਰਾਇਆ
King of Raghu Clan can only be met through innocent love.
King of Raghu Clan is an epithet of Ram Chandra ji that makes reference to his clan called the Raghus.

3. Thirdly, Dasam Granth is a compilation of multiple books, with a lot of mini books and smaller compositions, all compiled together.
A. It is a compilation of multiple books like -
-Bachittar Natak Granth
No doubts. These names are written internally in those books.
B. Each book has a different belief structure.

In Chaubis Avtar, there is worship of Bhagwati for instance.

ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥
Now I will recite praises of Devi.

Then the author goes on to worship Devi's qualities.

Is it any surprise that he later says -
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ I don't worship Ganesh or Krishna-Vishnu.
- Chaubis Avtar

Remember both the worship of Devi and the statement of non-worship of Ganesh and Vishnu is written in Chaubis Avtar.
ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥ and following stanzas...
ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥
Both are part of the same composition.
Is it any surprise that he doesn't worship those names but worships Devi instead?
Why does he worship Devi?
...because that is his belief system.

It is a different religion. Shakat religion (Devi) is different than Ganapatya (Ganesh) and Vaishnav (Krishna-Vishnu) religions.

In Gyan Prabodh, the author says -
ਜੋ ਇਹ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨੈ ਅਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀ ਏ ਫਲੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਆਧਿ ਬਯਾਧਿ ਛ੍ਵੈ ਸਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੮੫੯॥
Whoever listens to this story and sings this story (Ramayan), he will be free from the sufferings and sins. The reward of the devotion to Vishnu (and his incarnation Ram) is that no ailment of any kind will touch him.

These 9 types were taught by Bhagat Prahlaad ji and were first mentioned in the Bhaagvat Puran.

quote -
(22) Hiranyakas'ipu said. 'Now tell me Prahlâda, my son, what you, well taught as you are oh love of my life, consider the best of all that you all this time have learned from your teachers.'

(23-24) S'rî Prahlâda said: 'To listen, to sing, to remember Vishnu, to attend to the feet, to offer worship and prayers, to become a servant, to be a friend and to surrender one's heart and soul. These are the nine characteristics of the devotional service to Vishnu delivered by the devotee. This is the way one should relate to the Supreme Personality. That I consider the best that one can learn.'
 
http://bhagavata.org/canto7/chapter5.html

Are allegories fact or fiction?