nogroup singh

Canadian Jatti ji, Do you think whatever she was doing you can call it sikh way of life? Where do you see her following Sikh way of life? Just because she was born in sikh family doesn't make her pure sikh? Then howcome she can deserve Sikh values and equality? Can you get senior citizen rights? without getting old? Can you get rights to fly Airplane without having license? If you anwser is "no" to above questions then howcome she can get rights of sikhism? When she was not following sikh way of life? Where in sikhism it says that date a guy behind your parents back? Where in Sikhism it says that run away from home writing short note? Can you show me any history of sikhs where it happend and it was allowed? If you can't then admit that its a part of our so called punjabi culture and in that case she has been treated the punjabi culture way. Where women is not more than shoes of your feet. Do I make any sense? Please, try to read it with open mind because I don't see anything which can convince us that whatever she was doing was a "sikh way of life" so in that case where in this holy world you are fighting for her rights of sikhism? Everything is fair in love and war? But not in sikhism. If you want to get the rights of sikhism then be a sikh first, and live your life as per sikhism which has no place for betraying your family by dating someone behind their back and then running away from house. Please! give us a break here and don't make it a sikh way of life.

Sikhism and God In Sikhism, God is worshipped in two forms: the absolute and the personal. Sikhs believe there is a one and only absolute God with an authentic name. This Absolute God is creator in spirit, without fear, without hate, beyond time, beyond transmigration, self-existent, and can be realized with the pleasure of a true guru. Sikhs believe that before there was matter, the Absolute God was everywhere, alone in a profound trance. When the Absolute God so intended, the universe was created. In Sikhism, this is deemed the personal form of the Absolute God.

I see lack of references here. I would take it more seriously if you will provide references as well. Mahant gobind Das's information is based upon his extensive study of Udhasi texts of Baba Sri Chand's life and Udhasi traditions. Now here is the lack of references because you forgot mention those texts. References are from Adi Guru Granth Sahib the ones I have posted above. All the quotes are not in favour of asceticism and Udasi preach asceticism if im not mistaken. Now it can't be true that Gurus will go against their own teachings and views by making Sri Chand's asceticism a part of Sikhism. I have stated clearly that "One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism." and my references are coming from Adi Guru Granth sahib. Please, check all the quotes I have posted above. Ok! I say America is India now its up to individual's choice if they agree with me or not. So, am I going to solve anything by saying something like that? Please be reasonable and back up whatever you have on your websites. Also, my whole intention is to learn. Thanks!

source: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sikh_udhasi.html My feedback is below: Sanatan sikhs website has the below information: How do we validate above information? - Below are the quotes of Adi Guru Granth sahib for Asceticism Source: http://allaboutsikhs.com/quotations/asceticism.htm What's your feedback on this Narsingha? Thanks!

Just an passage from a book (Sikhs in the Eighteenth Century: Their Struggle for Survival and Supremacy by Surjit Singh Gandhi) "During the period from the death of Guru Gobind Singh upto the last few decades (of the 1700s), there is not even a single example of a caste group asserting itself against another caste groups constituting Sikh society. The utterances and policies of Sikh leadership in the aforesaid period all point to the irrefutable conclusion that everything was decided by the Panth and for the Panth. The contribution of the Rangrettas or so-called low-caste people is as great as that of Jatts or Khastris or anyone else. If Kapur Singh and Jassa Singh were given the honor of becoming the leaders of the Sikhs, it was because they were true Khalsa committed to the Khalsa ideals. Had the caste-spirit existed in some substantial measure, it would have been exploited by the Mohammedan Government as well as by Ahmad Shah Abdali and his clever Wazir Shah Khan. "Then certain factors operated in such a way that caste-spirit began to manifest itself...The vetern Sikhs disciplined by Guru Gobind Singh himself had been martyred and their descendants forced to remain in exile with that result the congregation began to drift back to the old customs and beliefs. Those who came from the low castes began to be distinguished from those who came from the so-called high castes. The Sikhs could keep away caste-system only from the Misls whose membership was open to all and whose patronage was shared equally by all...The Sardars at the head of different Misls began to act as sovereigns. Now came the question of selection or appointment of their councillors and officials. They were also stalked with ambition of becoming all-powerful and absolutely independent of one another. That being the state of their minds, there arose mutual squabble among them. As a consequence, every Sardar began to resort to unfair means to have this end. "Accordingly, they appealed to the regional or tribal sentiments. The Sikh mission, having gone weak and slack, could not arrest this trend with the result that caste considerations received strength...When the Sardars began to look more towards their selfish gain, the caste consideration among the Jats also began to emerge on the scene side by side with the Sikh spirit. Since the majority of the Misl Sardars and their followers happened to be Jats, the power and prestige which the Misls acquired, where shared by them with the result that they began to take pride in their caste. "According to Ethne K Marenco, the emergence of caste and the caste considerations were clearly observed by the British observers of the late 18th century. The following excerpt from William Franklin's book Military Memoirs of Mr. George Thomas is an eloquent testimony to the veracity of the aforesaid thesis: "The Sikhs allow foreigners of every description to join their standard, to sit in their company and to share their bread but excepting in the instance of the Jats, they will not consent to inter-marriges, nor will they eat or drink from the hands of an alien except he be a Brahmin and for this caste they will profess the highest veneration." "The mind of the Sikhs instead of making the degree of Sikhism the basis for social status began to work along the age-long grooves of the caste system. The emergence of castes and caste considerations among Sikhs was certainly an act of black-sliding and contrary to the social structure as perceived by the Sikh Gurus and embodied in their teachings. It is really a pity that the Sikh society of the 18th century could not realize the ideal of evolving into a coalesced single-class society."-

It was kind of crazy to see something like this online... :shock: :shock: So, i posted to get feedback. And don't worry im not offended at all because its not my invention...

This link has the tree type explanation of Sikhism evolutions ... http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/sikhism/

Let's not assume things and we need to get real here. Im not offended though. And I guess nobody asked for apology either. We all have freedom of expression and you're using the right of expressing yourself but the only difference is that in every post you judge members by giving your ultimate conclusion without waiting for while. Let's see.... We can assume so many things in our life and they are not absolute the way you have written above. You have been using "maybe" so many times so you are not certain or sure about things you been saying so it should give you anwser for your question that by seeing few individuals opinions you should not make judgement because at the end nobody is trying to force you but they are simply stating their opinions. Also, we need to follow God's decision that he has given us favor by giving us human life otherwise we would have been cat, crow etc. As you know that its scientifically proved that human has the right mind to make judgement and if we believe in God then we have to accept this that God want us to make judgement after contemplation of the things so let's not make our brain useless and throw everything on that almighty God who has blessed us with brain which can make judgements. You are naive enough to make comparison of sikhism Vs taliban regime but its ok we all are free to express our views otherwise how we are going to learn if we will hide them? My friend you need to be aware of the Islam first and learn what their "sahria law" is and how their religion runs. It seems bad to us when they wear veil to cover their woman because our religion has stopped this way back in front of moghuls the ones were strongly in favour of Sharia law. We can't call them bad because when you convert to Islam then you're submitting yourself to Islam. they don't believe in adopting way of religion but whoever becomes muslim they accept the submission of themselves in name of Allah. Here is link http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm for you to read what does Sharia law say which is acceptable in Islam but not in Sikhism. You are discussing two different ideologies. Here is the difference in Islam and Sikhism in nutshell.. http://www.sikhs.org/relig_m.htm There is no restrictions like covering yourself same as Islam preaches but it has been stated that woman should not loose her modesty. Sikhism was the first to give woman equality and freedom on planet earth. 1. Sikh gurus were the first one to stop women torture. Guru Nanak have said it in 1400 "We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473) And these western countries have started it in 1800s and some in 1900. Religious dress code is same as company dress code. You have to follow them in order to look professional. Also, sikhism is not forcing you to cover your body from head to toe and if it does then let me know. If you have taken amrit then there are few rules not restrictions the ones are acceptable to keep modesty. And in order to change your views visit www.sikhkids.com and visit their picture section to see the pictures of Amrtidhari girls/guys and it will help you to understand the great part of being baptized and sikhism and take away that stereotype image you have for Amritdharis. Just get it straight You can't have Amrit and on the same time you wear mini skirt and saying " Wahe Guru ji ka khalsa, Wahe guru ji ki" ... Well, its not a matter of concern but thoughts and actions we are talking about.. If you don't have muscles then how can you be bodybuilder? If you don't know how to drive car then how can you be on a path to become racer? If you're scared to even touch horse then how can you be horse rider? So, same goes for sikhism. Sikhism preaches to live by God and be happy what God gives you and live easy simple life. How can we expect someone to be spritually strong who is not willing to leave the illusion of this materialistic world? So that make up and other things come in illusion categories which belongs to this world not to spritual world which you are most interested in... Also guru ji stopped genderism when you take amrit.. Again your naive comparision. I have read your own comments that " don't judge the book by its cover" and see what you are doing by yourself? You are judging all Amritdhari people just because your own cousin are not fully dedicated to path which they've chosen? Do you think you are right in your comparison? If we follow rules at university, schools or at work then we don't go to downfall but we become more deciplined and that's the reason that we have them for us and sikhism gives us some rules you might see them as restrictions. Just take the example of your cousin they couldn't keep that decipline and that's why you're using their comparision and judging not just one but all Amritdhari so please keep your words and stick to rule " We are not here to judge anyone" ... visit this site and it might help you to learn more... http://www.sikhkids.com/events.htm Have patience and that's how you can learn and get options... Your desire.... Your conclusion.... Its all good because we are not here to judge you or force you. Its your life and go with the flow... 8) But if you have intention to learn then go ahead read these threads.. Why I embrace Sikhism. Part one: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=915 Part two: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=916 Just because nobody is willing to agree on certain things you say doesn't mean that nobody is willing to learn or following blindly. I have seen one girl who has started to wear turban just because she got inspired here. The problem you have that you want to stick to your ideas and want to see sikhism that way, and in that case its impossible for others to agree with you.. Again " we are not here to judge anyone" Here is your first post's paragraph... I don't see that quality in you. You have lack of patience. You have gone opposite to your own words by judgin others. Also, you are in hurry to come to conclusion. Do we have any option...? So, this is how you want to learn? if you replace "refute" with learn then you can learn a lot.... My ending note: When logic fails to open someone's mind, compassion may open his heart.

canadian Jatt ji, Could you elaborate on the paragraph I have quoted? So we can understand your message? What kind of changes you think sikhism requires in order to make it compatible with 21st centuary? Once you do that then we will proceed further with this debate.

Well, you are mistaken if you assume so about sikhism. Sikhism is path with spirit of saint+soldiers. Sikhism preaches simple rules of the life. Live family life and recite God's name. You don't need to go to jungle and sit there do bhagti and that's the best part of Sikhism. First of all, we have to be aware of this that there is no "our" punjabi media anymore. If one person is running punjabi media company whose parents are sikhs then it doesn't mean he will support sikhism. I tell you in simple words that business man wants to earn money for his investment and politician votes for his lectures.... If we will start educating our people. If you really want to change things then take some actions and spread the word and try to organize gurmat camps. You just need to spread the word of Gurus rest depends on individuals if they want to follow it or not... If you look at Gurus times then you will find out that situation was worst than this. They had so many anti-gurus at that time as well. They had moghuls, hill kings and also Guru ji's own families members going against them but still Sikhs were strong just because Guru ji's words were in their mind and they knew it very well... We need to spread the word of Guru ji and leave these "Neo Masands" for next session of Guru Gobind singh ji's patrol based burning camp. Literature works better than media because they have time to read and if they don't understand then they can re-read it once again. go ahead start doing sewa of distributing sikh history literature viallage to village and college to college and rest leave on Gurus and God. We need to produce movies based on sikh history. We can't change anything by blaming these ppl but we can change things by taking actions. Good thing is that we can start educating our people by giving them literature and show them what sikhism is all about...

Sikhs, I would say that let's get real here and see the truth. Its heavy reading but it will bring the truth. How do people now view about Khalistan? http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....99?OpenDocument Guru Gobind singh ji & Khalistan?????? http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....CC?OpenDocument Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....9C?OpenDocument Zia never supported ‘Khalistan’ http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....CA?OpenDocument Sikh Nationalism " common sikhs view" http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....08?OpenDocument Wanting a Khalsa Raj is nothing New http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....88?OpenDocument Anger seething beneath the calm - Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....20?OpenDocument India's shameful legacy. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....27?OpenDocument Article :- Sikh separatist returns home defiant http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....20?OpenDocument Brahmanwad Zindabad http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....35?OpenDocument Debate on Khalistan in Public http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....D9?OpenDocument Babar S khalistan Post - Support Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/SearchView/A8DD31DE77EA25B287256B5700107C7B?OpenDocument warning to others - Nick Singh pls respond http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....43?OpenDocument KHALSA -- before khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....62?OpenDocument WAKE UP, UNITE, AND FIGHT FOR KHALISTAN! http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....21?OpenDocument www.saintsoldiers.cjb.net http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....23?OpenDocument Greatest Sikh of the 20th Century - Nominate a person. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....68?OpenDocument Why not declare all of Punjab as Khalistan, not just Indian Side? http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....62?OpenDocument KHALASTAN http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....8E?OpenDocument Self Govern http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....BE?OpenDocument Fight for freedom http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....A0?OpenDocument Darbar Sahib http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....F1?OpenDocument I don't understand Sikhs, who don't want their own state. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....DF?OpenDocument Operation Bluestar - An Ex-MP's View http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....4D?OpenDocument Justification for Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....B7?OpenDocument New Delhi bombing http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....6A?OpenDocument Kalyug Ton Satyug Tak http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....9A?OpenDocument 1984: the Sequel to Mahabharat http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....CA?OpenDocument

What does research say about him? Was he life-long companion of Guru Nanak Dev ji? I don't see any reference of him in Guru ji's Bani but gurus did mention Bhai Mardana ji. What's the truth?

I have been hearing a lot about "Ramgariah Gurudwaras" these days, so I would like to know about history of these Gurudwaras. I know whenever there are Gurdwaras based on community names then there is 100% politics involved behind it but I have searched the whole net and couldn't find anything relevent information to come to any conclusion. Any feedback on the origin of Ramgariah Gurudwaras?

Khalsa panth was established in Guru Gobind singh ji's time and if I go by above posts then all those died for sikhism like Guru Arjun Dev ji, Bhai Taru ji, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Sati Das ji, Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji and others were not Khalsa either but they prefered to die than cutting their hair. They would have gotten huge houses and 4-5 women slaves to have fun. 2. Sikh is learner without any destination? They have destination to become proper "Gursikh" not just be a learner for his whole life. Sikhism is same as university where you learn about religion and then pass the test and ultimately you become Sikh. 3. Modern sikhism way of life: Sikhi is inside not outside. If you cut your hair then it doesn't make you less sikh or high sikh. Hairs are important for Khalsa Sikhs. My friends if you believe in Sikhism then you have to believe in this concept that all gurus were light of Guru Nanak dev ji. We call it " joti jot samana" not that they died. How Guru ji knew that Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji was at Bakala? when he had no relation with him? Everything was going according to Guru Nanak dev ji's plan. They all were 10 Nanaks and whatever Guru gobind singh ji did was also a part of Guru Nanak's plan and same goes for other Gurus life as well. If you want to pick up girls and have fun and want to be sikh with hair around 50s then go for it and if girls want to have fun go out and enjoy in clubs then go for it but please for GOD sake don't make our Gurus and ancient sikhs martyrs useless. If we take modern way of Sikhism then all those Sikhs and Gurus themselves were just fooling around because Khalsa panth was not established in their times? 4. Jsb, Gurus were not fighting for Sikhs but for the humanity. They were not there to build any state but they were their to teach sparrows to challenge hawks and fight injustice. So, if non-sikhs faught for them then there is nothing wrong in it as they were fighting for humanity against evil so in that case whoever was in favour of them came ahead and helped them. Guru ji broke the tradition of ancient times that only "fighter races" can fight in wars. Guru ji's army had Brahmins, khatri, jats, rajputs, muslim sufis, chamar, churas and even baniyas. Guru ji stopped class system by giving sword to trader who never had gutts to even hold it. Guru ji gave sword to chamar who was tortured and abused by so called high caste people. Guru ji gave sword to Brahmin who was reciting vedas and had job of scholar for long times and they all faught like warriors and broke the old tradition of old times that if you want to fight in wars then you have to be "kashatriya" or fighter class. Guru Gobind singh ji, I shall teach the sparrow to challenge the hawk.

Here is what Guru Granth sahib ji telling us about Colurs and everything... Guru Granth sahib clearly telling us that evertything exist by his power. So, howcome one color is bad and another one is good? Any color you wear has nothing to do with good and bad as we know every color on this earth is coming from that almighty God. I hope anwsered your questions.