nogroup singh

Canadian Jatti ji, Do you think whatever she was doing you can call it sikh way of life? Where do you see her following Sikh way of life? Just because she was born in sikh family doesn't make her pure sikh? Then howcome she can deserve Sikh values and equality? Can you get senior citizen rights? without getting old? Can you get rights to fly Airplane without having license? If you anwser is "no" to above questions then howcome she can get rights of sikhism? When she was not following sikh way of life? Where in sikhism it says that date a guy behind your parents back? Where in Sikhism it says that run away from home writing short note? Can you show me any history of sikhs where it happend and it was allowed? If you can't then admit that its a part of our so called punjabi culture and in that case she has been treated the punjabi culture way. Where women is not more than shoes of your feet. Do I make any sense? Please, try to read it with open mind because I don't see anything which can convince us that whatever she was doing was a "sikh way of life" so in that case where in this holy world you are fighting for her rights of sikhism? Everything is fair in love and war? But not in sikhism. If you want to get the rights of sikhism then be a sikh first, and live your life as per sikhism which has no place for betraying your family by dating someone behind their back and then running away from house. Please! give us a break here and don't make it a sikh way of life.

Sikhism and God In Sikhism, God is worshipped in two forms: the absolute and the personal. Sikhs believe there is a one and only absolute God with an authentic name. This Absolute God is creator in spirit, without fear, without hate, beyond time, beyond transmigration, self-existent, and can be realized with the pleasure of a true guru. Sikhs believe that before there was matter, the Absolute God was everywhere, alone in a profound trance. When the Absolute God so intended, the universe was created. In Sikhism, this is deemed the personal form of the Absolute God.

I see lack of references here. I would take it more seriously if you will provide references as well. Mahant gobind Das's information is based upon his extensive study of Udhasi texts of Baba Sri Chand's life and Udhasi traditions. Now here is the lack of references because you forgot mention those texts. References are from Adi Guru Granth Sahib the ones I have posted above. All the quotes are not in favour of asceticism and Udasi preach asceticism if im not mistaken. Now it can't be true that Gurus will go against their own teachings and views by making Sri Chand's asceticism a part of Sikhism. I have stated clearly that "One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism." and my references are coming from Adi Guru Granth sahib. Please, check all the quotes I have posted above. Ok! I say America is India now its up to individual's choice if they agree with me or not. So, am I going to solve anything by saying something like that? Please be reasonable and back up whatever you have on your websites. Also, my whole intention is to learn. Thanks!

source: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sikh_udhasi.html My feedback is below: Sanatan sikhs website has the below information: How do we validate above information? - Below are the quotes of Adi Guru Granth sahib for Asceticism Source: http://allaboutsikhs.com/quotations/asceticism.htm What's your feedback on this Narsingha? Thanks!

Just an passage from a book (Sikhs in the Eighteenth Century: Their Struggle for Survival and Supremacy by Surjit Singh Gandhi) "During the period from the death of Guru Gobind Singh upto the last few decades (of the 1700s), there is not even a single example of a caste group asserting itself against another caste groups constituting Sikh society. The utterances and policies of Sikh leadership in the aforesaid period all point to the irrefutable conclusion that everything was decided by the Panth and for the Panth. The contribution of the Rangrettas or so-called low-caste people is as great as that of Jatts or Khastris or anyone else. If Kapur Singh and Jassa Singh were given the honor of becoming the leaders of the Sikhs, it was because they were true Khalsa committed to the Khalsa ideals. Had the caste-spirit existed in some substantial measure, it would have been exploited by the Mohammedan Government as well as by Ahmad Shah Abdali and his clever Wazir Shah Khan. "Then certain factors operated in such a way that caste-spirit began to manifest itself...The vetern Sikhs disciplined by Guru Gobind Singh himself had been martyred and their descendants forced to remain in exile with that result the congregation began to drift back to the old customs and beliefs. Those who came from the low castes began to be distinguished from those who came from the so-called high castes. The Sikhs could keep away caste-system only from the Misls whose membership was open to all and whose patronage was shared equally by all...The Sardars at the head of different Misls began to act as sovereigns. Now came the question of selection or appointment of their councillors and officials. They were also stalked with ambition of becoming all-powerful and absolutely independent of one another. That being the state of their minds, there arose mutual squabble among them. As a consequence, every Sardar began to resort to unfair means to have this end. "Accordingly, they appealed to the regional or tribal sentiments. The Sikh mission, having gone weak and slack, could not arrest this trend with the result that caste considerations received strength...When the Sardars began to look more towards their selfish gain, the caste consideration among the Jats also began to emerge on the scene side by side with the Sikh spirit. Since the majority of the Misl Sardars and their followers happened to be Jats, the power and prestige which the Misls acquired, where shared by them with the result that they began to take pride in their caste. "According to Ethne K Marenco, the emergence of caste and the caste considerations were clearly observed by the British observers of the late 18th century. The following excerpt from William Franklin's book Military Memoirs of Mr. George Thomas is an eloquent testimony to the veracity of the aforesaid thesis: "The Sikhs allow foreigners of every description to join their standard, to sit in their company and to share their bread but excepting in the instance of the Jats, they will not consent to inter-marriges, nor will they eat or drink from the hands of an alien except he be a Brahmin and for this caste they will profess the highest veneration." "The mind of the Sikhs instead of making the degree of Sikhism the basis for social status began to work along the age-long grooves of the caste system. The emergence of castes and caste considerations among Sikhs was certainly an act of black-sliding and contrary to the social structure as perceived by the Sikh Gurus and embodied in their teachings. It is really a pity that the Sikh society of the 18th century could not realize the ideal of evolving into a coalesced single-class society."-

It was kind of crazy to see something like this online... :shock: :shock: So, i posted to get feedback. And don't worry im not offended at all because its not my invention...

This link has the tree type explanation of Sikhism evolutions ... http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/sikhism/

Let's not assume things and we need to get real here. Im not offended though. And I guess nobody asked for apology either. We all have freedom of expression and you're using the right of expressing yourself but the only difference is that in every post you judge members by giving your ultimate conclusion without waiting for while. Let's see.... We can assume so many things in our life and they are not absolute the way you have written above. You have been using "maybe" so many times so you are not certain or sure about things you been saying so it should give you anwser for your question that by seeing few individuals opinions you should not make judgement because at the end nobody is trying to force you but they are simply stating their opinions. Also, we need to follow God's decision that he has given us favor by giving us human life otherwise we would have been cat, crow etc. As you know that its scientifically proved that human has the right mind to make judgement and if we believe in God then we have to accept this that God want us to make judgement after contemplation of the things so let's not make our brain useless and throw everything on that almighty God who has blessed us with brain which can make judgements. You are naive enough to make comparison of sikhism Vs taliban regime but its ok we all are free to express our views otherwise how we are going to learn if we will hide them? My friend you need to be aware of the Islam first and learn what their "sahria law" is and how their religion runs. It seems bad to us when they wear veil to cover their woman because our religion has stopped this way back in front of moghuls the ones were strongly in favour of Sharia law. We can't call them bad because when you convert to Islam then you're submitting yourself to Islam. they don't believe in adopting way of religion but whoever becomes muslim they accept the submission of themselves in name of Allah. Here is link http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm for you to read what does Sharia law say which is acceptable in Islam but not in Sikhism. You are discussing two different ideologies. Here is the difference in Islam and Sikhism in nutshell.. http://www.sikhs.org/relig_m.htm There is no restrictions like covering yourself same as Islam preaches but it has been stated that woman should not loose her modesty. Sikhism was the first to give woman equality and freedom on planet earth. 1. Sikh gurus were the first one to stop women torture. Guru Nanak have said it in 1400 "We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473) And these western countries have started it in 1800s and some in 1900. Religious dress code is same as company dress code. You have to follow them in order to look professional. Also, sikhism is not forcing you to cover your body from head to toe and if it does then let me know. If you have taken amrit then there are few rules not restrictions the ones are acceptable to keep modesty. And in order to change your views visit www.sikhkids.com and visit their picture section to see the pictures of Amrtidhari girls/guys and it will help you to understand the great part of being baptized and sikhism and take away that stereotype image you have for Amritdharis. Just get it straight You can't have Amrit and on the same time you wear mini skirt and saying " Wahe Guru ji ka khalsa, Wahe guru ji ki" ... Well, its not a matter of concern but thoughts and actions we are talking about.. If you don't have muscles then how can you be bodybuilder? If you don't know how to drive car then how can you be on a path to become racer? If you're scared to even touch horse then how can you be horse rider? So, same goes for sikhism. Sikhism preaches to live by God and be happy what God gives you and live easy simple life. How can we expect someone to be spritually strong who is not willing to leave the illusion of this materialistic world? So that make up and other things come in illusion categories which belongs to this world not to spritual world which you are most interested in... Also guru ji stopped genderism when you take amrit.. Again your naive comparision. I have read your own comments that " don't judge the book by its cover" and see what you are doing by yourself? You are judging all Amritdhari people just because your own cousin are not fully dedicated to path which they've chosen? Do you think you are right in your comparison? If we follow rules at university, schools or at work then we don't go to downfall but we become more deciplined and that's the reason that we have them for us and sikhism gives us some rules you might see them as restrictions. Just take the example of your cousin they couldn't keep that decipline and that's why you're using their comparision and judging not just one but all Amritdhari so please keep your words and stick to rule " We are not here to judge anyone" ... visit this site and it might help you to learn more... http://www.sikhkids.com/events.htm Have patience and that's how you can learn and get options... Your desire.... Your conclusion.... Its all good because we are not here to judge you or force you. Its your life and go with the flow... 8) But if you have intention to learn then go ahead read these threads.. Why I embrace Sikhism. Part one: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=915 Part two: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=916 Just because nobody is willing to agree on certain things you say doesn't mean that nobody is willing to learn or following blindly. I have seen one girl who has started to wear turban just because she got inspired here. The problem you have that you want to stick to your ideas and want to see sikhism that way, and in that case its impossible for others to agree with you.. Again " we are not here to judge anyone" Here is your first post's paragraph... I don't see that quality in you. You have lack of patience. You have gone opposite to your own words by judgin others. Also, you are in hurry to come to conclusion. Do we have any option...? So, this is how you want to learn? if you replace "refute" with learn then you can learn a lot.... My ending note: When logic fails to open someone's mind, compassion may open his heart.

canadian Jatt ji, Could you elaborate on the paragraph I have quoted? So we can understand your message? What kind of changes you think sikhism requires in order to make it compatible with 21st centuary? Once you do that then we will proceed further with this debate.

Well, you are mistaken if you assume so about sikhism. Sikhism is path with spirit of saint+soldiers. Sikhism preaches simple rules of the life. Live family life and recite God's name. You don't need to go to jungle and sit there do bhagti and that's the best part of Sikhism. First of all, we have to be aware of this that there is no "our" punjabi media anymore. If one person is running punjabi media company whose parents are sikhs then it doesn't mean he will support sikhism. I tell you in simple words that business man wants to earn money for his investment and politician votes for his lectures.... If we will start educating our people. If you really want to change things then take some actions and spread the word and try to organize gurmat camps. You just need to spread the word of Gurus rest depends on individuals if they want to follow it or not... If you look at Gurus times then you will find out that situation was worst than this. They had so many anti-gurus at that time as well. They had moghuls, hill kings and also Guru ji's own families members going against them but still Sikhs were strong just because Guru ji's words were in their mind and they knew it very well... We need to spread the word of Guru ji and leave these "Neo Masands" for next session of Guru Gobind singh ji's patrol based burning camp. Literature works better than media because they have time to read and if they don't understand then they can re-read it once again. go ahead start doing sewa of distributing sikh history literature viallage to village and college to college and rest leave on Gurus and God. We need to produce movies based on sikh history. We can't change anything by blaming these ppl but we can change things by taking actions. Good thing is that we can start educating our people by giving them literature and show them what sikhism is all about...

Sikhs, I would say that let's get real here and see the truth. Its heavy reading but it will bring the truth. How do people now view about Khalistan? http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....99?OpenDocument Guru Gobind singh ji & Khalistan?????? http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....CC?OpenDocument Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....9C?OpenDocument Zia never supported ‘Khalistan’ http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....CA?OpenDocument Sikh Nationalism " common sikhs view" http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....08?OpenDocument Wanting a Khalsa Raj is nothing New http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....88?OpenDocument Anger seething beneath the calm - Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....20?OpenDocument India's shameful legacy. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....27?OpenDocument Article :- Sikh separatist returns home defiant http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....20?OpenDocument Brahmanwad Zindabad http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....35?OpenDocument Debate on Khalistan in Public http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....D9?OpenDocument Babar S khalistan Post - Support Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/SearchView/A8DD31DE77EA25B287256B5700107C7B?OpenDocument warning to others - Nick Singh pls respond http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....43?OpenDocument KHALSA -- before khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....62?OpenDocument WAKE UP, UNITE, AND FIGHT FOR KHALISTAN! http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....21?OpenDocument www.saintsoldiers.cjb.net http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....23?OpenDocument Greatest Sikh of the 20th Century - Nominate a person. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....68?OpenDocument Why not declare all of Punjab as Khalistan, not just Indian Side? http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....62?OpenDocument KHALASTAN http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....8E?OpenDocument Self Govern http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....BE?OpenDocument Fight for freedom http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....A0?OpenDocument Darbar Sahib http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....F1?OpenDocument I don't understand Sikhs, who don't want their own state. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....DF?OpenDocument Operation Bluestar - An Ex-MP's View http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....4D?OpenDocument Justification for Khalistan http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....B7?OpenDocument New Delhi bombing http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....6A?OpenDocument Kalyug Ton Satyug Tak http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....9A?OpenDocument 1984: the Sequel to Mahabharat http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....CA?OpenDocument

What does research say about him? Was he life-long companion of Guru Nanak Dev ji? I don't see any reference of him in Guru ji's Bani but gurus did mention Bhai Mardana ji. What's the truth?

I have been hearing a lot about "Ramgariah Gurudwaras" these days, so I would like to know about history of these Gurudwaras. I know whenever there are Gurdwaras based on community names then there is 100% politics involved behind it but I have searched the whole net and couldn't find anything relevent information to come to any conclusion. Any feedback on the origin of Ramgariah Gurudwaras?

Khalsa panth was established in Guru Gobind singh ji's time and if I go by above posts then all those died for sikhism like Guru Arjun Dev ji, Bhai Taru ji, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Sati Das ji, Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji and others were not Khalsa either but they prefered to die than cutting their hair. They would have gotten huge houses and 4-5 women slaves to have fun. 2. Sikh is learner without any destination? They have destination to become proper "Gursikh" not just be a learner for his whole life. Sikhism is same as university where you learn about religion and then pass the test and ultimately you become Sikh. 3. Modern sikhism way of life: Sikhi is inside not outside. If you cut your hair then it doesn't make you less sikh or high sikh. Hairs are important for Khalsa Sikhs. My friends if you believe in Sikhism then you have to believe in this concept that all gurus were light of Guru Nanak dev ji. We call it " joti jot samana" not that they died. How Guru ji knew that Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji was at Bakala? when he had no relation with him? Everything was going according to Guru Nanak dev ji's plan. They all were 10 Nanaks and whatever Guru gobind singh ji did was also a part of Guru Nanak's plan and same goes for other Gurus life as well. If you want to pick up girls and have fun and want to be sikh with hair around 50s then go for it and if girls want to have fun go out and enjoy in clubs then go for it but please for GOD sake don't make our Gurus and ancient sikhs martyrs useless. If we take modern way of Sikhism then all those Sikhs and Gurus themselves were just fooling around because Khalsa panth was not established in their times? 4. Jsb, Gurus were not fighting for Sikhs but for the humanity. They were not there to build any state but they were their to teach sparrows to challenge hawks and fight injustice. So, if non-sikhs faught for them then there is nothing wrong in it as they were fighting for humanity against evil so in that case whoever was in favour of them came ahead and helped them. Guru ji broke the tradition of ancient times that only "fighter races" can fight in wars. Guru ji's army had Brahmins, khatri, jats, rajputs, muslim sufis, chamar, churas and even baniyas. Guru ji stopped class system by giving sword to trader who never had gutts to even hold it. Guru ji gave sword to chamar who was tortured and abused by so called high caste people. Guru ji gave sword to Brahmin who was reciting vedas and had job of scholar for long times and they all faught like warriors and broke the old tradition of old times that if you want to fight in wars then you have to be "kashatriya" or fighter class. Guru Gobind singh ji, I shall teach the sparrow to challenge the hawk.

Here is what Guru Granth sahib ji telling us about Colurs and everything... Guru Granth sahib clearly telling us that evertything exist by his power. So, howcome one color is bad and another one is good? Any color you wear has nothing to do with good and bad as we know every color on this earth is coming from that almighty God. I hope anwsered your questions.

I agree with you lalleshwari that SGPC has no credibility these days. They have become political party rather than becoming leaders of Sikhs they are into dirty politics of their on chair-powers.... I guess we should read this article about Akal Takat Sahib. http://members.pgonline.com/~mpurewal/akal.html

This article is valueable to add to this thread. You guys can carry on with your discussion. http://members.pgonline.com/~mpurewal/dasm-b.html

God is always around us so there is no reason to doubt that he does't listen to us. Whatever we do it happens because God wants us to do so...... God don't have human body so if you're looking for ears of God then you need to read definition of God in Sikhism which I have posted above. God exist before light, echo, sound so we cannot measure or test him. God is spirit. Please, read the below link to read his praise. http://www.sacred-texts.com/skh/granth/gr44.htm

Well if you are willing to read 10 pages of discussion in which most of the people give their own personal opinion I have no problem with it. But in my post I have nothing of mine and it has facts with data to support it so that's the purpose to have it. I believe in real facts and evidences to prove things so others can learn and teach ..... 8)

www.sikhe.com http://www.sikhe.com/modules.php?op=modloa...754&mode=thread ______________________________________________________ Deras and the Ecclesiastical Anarchy among Sikhs Dr. Kharak Singh* * 959, Phase IV, SAS Nagar. 160059. Founder-Member of Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh. Guru Nanak (1469-1539 CE) gave a new religious philosophy, and preached and practised a new way of life. Nine successors nourished the movement which culminated in the creation of the Khalsa in 1699 CE, imbued with spirit of service and sacrifice, and a strong belief in the Creator and equality and freedom of His creation, the mankind. Inspired by the teachings and example of the Gurus, humble people from low castes who had been meekly submitting to social injustice under the demeaning caste system, and brutalities from foreign invaders for centuries, rose in revolt against the prevailing set-up. The Gurus had in fact engineered an unprecedented revolution that turned ‘sparrows into hawks.’ The struggle continued after Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708). Banda Singh Bahadur succeeded in setting-up a Sikh government in Punjab. But the success was short-lived. Banda Singh was captured and executed after torture along with hundreds of his companions. Unprecedented repression followed. Sikhs were outlawed and the Mughal government declared a policy of genocide which was followed vigorously. Sikhs had to flee their homes and sought shelter in the desert of Bikaner or forests of the hilly areas. This did not affect their high spirits or their deep-rooted faith in their ultimate destiny. They switched over to guerilla warfare, and took full advantage of the fluid political situation as well as the invasions of Ahmed Shah Abdali which had considerably weakened the authority of Delhi. By 1765, the Sikhs had returned and were dominating large parts of Punjab under misl chiefs. By 1799, Ranjit Singh had established himself as ruler of the Punjab and as symbol of the people’s victory and sovereignty of the Khalsa. Present Malaise: The above brief account would appear irrelevant to the subject of ‘deras’. This background, however, has been recalled to raise the question: Has the philosophy of Guru Nanak which changed the course of history, and brought about the above revolution, become inadequate to satisfy the spiritual or temporal needs of the people today? The question arises from the present influx of the people to the babas and their deras. What draws them to these deras? Do the babas dispense a superior spiritual philosophy or spiritual peace not available in the mainstream Sikhism or at the Gurdwaras? When somebody visits a dera, does it amount to conversion from his earlier faith to a new religion? These questions are important, and the problems arising from the dera phenomenon are serious and are assuming gross dimensions. The dera of ‘Baba’ Ashutosh at Nurmahal is very much in the news. His activities are a serious threat to peace and tranquility of the state. Thoughtless utterances and provocative statements issuing from his dera or his congregations elsewhere are an open invitation to trouble. What happened at Malout recently is a warning that cannot be ignored. The ‘baba’ appears determined to follow in the footsteps of his counterpart in the Nirankari sect, who in arrogance and with ill-advised patronage of the government, insisted on holding congregations in inhospitable localities denigrating the Sikh Gurus and playing with the sentiments of their followers. Memory of the massacre of 13 Sikhs at Amritsar in 1978, and the subsequent assassination of the ‘Baba’ Gurbachan Singh, which gave impetus to the later Bhindranwale phenomenon, and caused so much bitterness, is still fresh in our minds. No responsible government or individual, regardless of religious affiliation, can afford the repetition of that nightmare. Unfortunately, Nirankaris and Nurmahalias are not the only deras vitiating the peaceful atmosphere in the state. Only a short while earlier ‘Baba’ Bhaniarawala and his followers earned notoriety by desecrating the holy birs of Guru Granth Sahib, the eternal Guru of the Sikhs. The anguish caused by the outrage might appear dormant at the moment, but it will no doubt flare up, if the culprits are allowed to get away with it. Dens of Immortality: There is no count of the rapidly mushrooming deras for ‘spiritual rejuvenation’ of their followers. Among hundreds of other deras mention must be made of the deras at Daudhar and Sacha Sauda for the significant crowds they attract. Custodians of two such deras, one at Nawanshehar and the other at Ludhiana, are currently behind the bars on charges of rape of unsuspecting victims. There are complaints of such activities at many other deras. In fact, some of them appear to have been started to clandestinely provide a place for the influential to indulge in debaucheries, and have become dens of crime and immorality. An intelligence report will expose the truth about these deras. A recent dangerous trend is the revival of long abandoned graves and marhis associated with imaginary pirs and shahids. Clever people have taken over these mazars or samadhis, and their trade is flourishing. These are certain features common to all deras. They insist on the need for a ‘guru’ in flesh and blood, for fulfilment of spiritual aspirations as well as profane desires, as did the Brahmins earlier to emphasize their indispensability in the life of the common man. In the Punjab they all exploit people’s faith in gurbani and Guru Granth Sahib. They insist on akhnad paths even at the graves to mislead people. They misinterpret the gurbani and quote verses that praise the ‘guru’, carefully concealing the fact that the term in Gurbani refers to Sabad and for God and not the physical mortal frame of a deradar. They also ignore the fact that Guru Gobind Singh forever vested the guruship in Granth Sahib, the embodiment of the Sabad revealed to Guru Nanak and his successors, and ruled out any corporeal guru after him. Further, all successful deras practise their cult as a trade and employ modern media for sales promotion. They hire agents who go about in public attributing ‘miracles’ to the ‘baba’ and stories of boons conferred on faithful devotees. The local administration gets involved in the course of time, since the officials see obvious advantages in the partnership. The politicians, in their lust for power and pursuit of votes, cannot afford to ignore the growing popularity of a dera, and, therefore, do not lag behind in seeking blessings of the ‘babas’. When they go to make their obeisance, their visits are fully exploited. The Bhaniarawala’s so-called granth is profusely adorned with colour pictures of politicians, including ministers, and senior state officials standing with folded hands in prayer before the ‘baba’. It is a real shame that the leaders should so debase themselves for the sake of doubtful gains. It must be pointed out that when people go to deras it is no indication that they are unhappy with the mainstream religious faith. For, nobody has ever explained it to them. Nor do they know anything about cults preached at the deras. Thus, in fact, no conversion is involved. It is only the mundane objectives and ignorance that drive the illiterate masses, particularly in the rural areas, to the deras. Politicians and state officials are also frequently not aware of the spiritual aspects involved. They, however, understand the game, but seeing obvious advantage in the partnership, often join the exploitation. The state of affairs is indeed very disturbing. More disturbing, however, is the fact that those who are supposed to deal with it, are not conscious of the gravity of the problem. Who is responsible for it? Can we blame the ‘babas’ for doing what suits their interests? It is a fashion to blame the government for everything that appears to be wrong. One frequently hears that the deras have appeared at the instance of the government and enjoy its patronage. It is a responsibility of the leaders of the mainstream religious thought to educate the masses through intensive missionary work on the basic principles and the lofty ideals of the founders of our great religion. In the case of the mainstream Sikhism, SGPC has to accept this responsibility. Our leaders have so far been content with the management of religious places and the revenues accruing from them. The masses have been left at the mercy of the ‘babas’ to be exploited and preyed upon by these vultures in human form and garb of sants. Awareness: Blame game and evasion of responsibility will not help. The leaders must appropriate the blame to themselves, and launch an intensive missionary campaign to create an awareness against the rampant exploitation, to wage a war on superstition and to carry the message of love, service and sacrifice, and the Guru’s motto - Naam japo; dharam di kirt karo; vand chhako - to every home. Then no demonstrations, or entreaties to the government to intervene will be necessary. With masses awakened, the deras will collapse. The truth appears to be dawning. The SGPC has made a beginning to move in this direction. Recruitment of new qualified parcharaks and training programmers recently announced for the agencies involved, make a happy augury for freedom from ‘babas’ and their deras. Side by side, the government also owes a responsibility. The antecedents of the emerging sects must be checked and a close watch kept on their activities to save the innocent people from exploitation.

Neo ji, you make sense when you say the lines I have quoted above and you will agree that sants the ones that has nothing to do with attachment with the world don't want follower as well. If any Sants is looking for followers then he/she are not sants.

N30S!ingh ji, Shere Khalsa da had no intention to say that other religions are un-pure so I think we have misunderstanding over there. Anyhow, I know religions are path to get to that almighty but you should be aware of this that most of the religions are into extremists hands these days and they are using religions to gain power. I love waht Guru Granth sahib says for Muslims and Hindus and to be honest if they follow it then there are no conflicts at all. Here is message for muslims Guru Granth sahib ji saying: But who is doing it? For hindus: From the cotton of compassion, Spin the thread of contentment; Tying the knot of continence, Give it the twist of virtue. Such a sacred thread, O Pandit, Make for your inner self. (SGGS: Asa di Var, page 471.) And at the end we have great words from Guru ji: There is one God the Father of all And we are all his children. (SGGS: Rag Sorath, page 611) I keep neither the Hindu fast nor the Muslim Ramadan; I serve Him alone who will, in the end, save me. My lord is both the Muslim Allah and Hindu Gosain; Thus have I settled the dispute of the Hindu and the Muslim. I go neither to the pilgrimage at Mecca, Nor bathe at the Hindu holy places. I serve the one Lord, and none else but Him. (SGGS: Rag Bhairon, page 1136) Finally, I would like to add this to this post. As out of a single fire, Millions of spark arise; So from God’s form emerge all creation, Animate and inanimate. (Akal Ustat, page 87) Guru Gobind Singh further declared: He is in the temple as in the mosque, In the Hindu worship as in the Muslim prayer. (Akal Ustat, page 86)

Please read it: ARRANGED MARRIAGES - GOOD OR BAD? http://srd.yahoo.com/goo/arranged+marriage...9.10.15.50.html This article(((originally in Scientific America)) IT REappeared in a discussion thread ?.I cut it out and am posting it below?THE FACTS FOR MARRIAGE?.AS THE RESULT OF ?LOVE??.SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES? Running the Numbers Several recent studies suggest that the number of marriages in the United States and other Western countries is in a continual decline. A December 1999 article in Scientific American reports that 67 percent of American women aged 35 to 44 were legally married in 1998. From 1890 to 1940 this number averaged 81 percent, punctuated by an increase due to the wartime marriages associated with the baby boom. Numbers have been dropping ever since, a trend that is echoed in many other Western countries, most notably Canada, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, and Hungary. The author, Rodger Doyle, suggests that living together is replacing marriage and that women's economic independence, the availability of family-planning measures, and the increase in higher education have all contributed to both the postponement of marriage and to divorce. The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago confirms that many couples are choosing cohabitation over wedding bells. "The Emerging 21st-Century American Family," released November 24, 1999, was extrapolated from data from the General Social Survey (GSS), a broad study of American life which NORC has been conducting since 1972. For the 1998 survey, GSS researchers interviewed 2,832 randomly selected people 18 and over and found that the most common household arrangement, at 32 percent, consisted of unmarried people and no children. In 1972 the most common arrangement was married couples with children, at 45 percent, while in 1998 only 26 percent of the respondents lived in such households. The report also projected that. Such arrangements are further complicated by the fact that working mothers and dual-career marriages have become much more common: in 1972, only 33 percent of parents both held jobs, while in 1998, 67 percent of both parents worked. "Within marriage the changes have been profound as more and more women have entered the labor force and gender roles have become more homogenous between husbands and wives," said Tom W. Smith, the director of the GSS and author of the report. Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe are codirectors of the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University. In June 1999, they published a study called "The State of Our Unions: The Social Health of Marriage in America," which found that the national marriage rate has dropped 43 percent over the last four decades. Their research suggests that many American teenagers have lost faith in their ability to find a lifelong partner. In an article from the Manhattan Institute's City Journal, Whitehead describes a "new mating regime." The pattern consists of a series of relationships, some of which are short "hookups," while others are longer and include cohabitation and children. Romance and marriage take a secondary role and occur later in life if at all. Breakups are common, and relationship revenge has become a popular theme, spawning the creation of "dump books," catty greeting cards, and stalker films. While she notes that this pattern is most common among the never-married, high school educated young and African Americans, couples of all ages are participating. This is generating a range of questions about the processes of parenting, as well as the importance of personal fulfillment versus the long-term value of commitment. "The new mating regime imposes myriad social costs," Whitehead writes. "Some fall upon a public system that increasingly must protect women from their violent partners and care for abused, neglected, and abandoned children. The social costs include an expanded family-court system, stepped-up child-support enforcement efforts, increased mediation and conflict-resolution services in the schools, and more. It's a sign of the times that in West Virginia, fourth-grade Girl Scouts can now earn a merit badge in domestic-violence prevention." Hedging Matrimonial Bets Politicians, counselors, educators, and clergy have all taken notice of these troubles and are proposing a variety of solutions. Maggie Gallagher, director of the Marriage Project at the Institute for American Values, wrote about a number of pro-marriage activists in last year's November 8 issue of the National Review: Mike McManus founded the national Marriage Savers organization, which aims to cut the divorce rate by training married couples to serve as mentors in churches; Diane Sollee directs the Coalition for Marriage, Family, and Couples Education, which provides practical courses on marriage skills; Katherine Spaht, a family lawyer in Louisiana, helped to draw up the nation's first covenant marriage--a stronger legal commitment than allowed by standard, no-fault divorce laws; Oklahoma governor Frank Keating has made reducing the divorce rate an explicit goal--he called for a summit of state leaders to draft a "Strategic Plan to Honor Marriage and Reduce Divorce." The federal government has also gotten in on the act; a law to reduce the "marriage penalty," which forces some spouses to pay more taxes than they might as singles, is making its way through Congress. Gallagher praises the involvement of state and local politicians in shoring up marriage."The increasing privatization of marriage is a key legal and cultural factor contributing to our current marriage crisis," she writes. "Marriage is a public, legal commitment, not merely a private, impassioned lover's vow. Marriage is an institution like private property--which is not created by government, but which, in order to thrive, must be recognized and protected by it." courtship vs dating 2 http://srd.yahoo.com/goo/dating+vs.+arrang...com/court2.html ... skip the first two paragraphs and read the rest?it describes history of LOVE MARRIAGE The relevant part starts off: There was a Harvard research paper on the subject of parents arranging the marriage of their children. It was discovered that making love and romance, the basis of marriage was a Roman contribution to Western civilization I discovered that for thousands of years, in all parts of the world that the principles of family ties, religion, station of birth, wealth and education were the founding factors in marriage, and not love and physical attraction. This researcher dug up the fact that 100 years ago in Japan marrying for love was a capital crime. The Japanese wisely reasoned that family, its name and inheritance, were far too important to be left to something as shaky as love and romance· Moreover, this researcher, much to her surprise, found that, ************************************************************************** in general, marriages arranged by the parents were just as happy and often more successful than marriages left to romance and falling in love. This is because the love that brings a couple together is not the love that keeps them together. **************************************************************************** There is no doubt that romantic songs, poems, plays, novels and movies have popularized the notion of romantic love being the basis for marriage. The plots of such plays as Romeo and Juliet have done as much as anything else to break down parental authority in marriage and idealize romantic love as the basis for marriage· Thus Shakespeare, and not the Bible, has become the accepted standard. The ideal of romantic love, the attitude that "I do not love him any more" is a real and legitimate excuse for divorce. Some have even gone so far as to change the marriage vows to "As long as we both shall love " instead of "As long as we both shall live. " Romantic love and physical attraction, while they are important, are not sound foundations to build a life and family upon. You might want to read this article as well : This article is written by a Reverened from a Christian persepective?.read the three areas where dating fails?. The views expressed are all in line with Sikh thought?How ironic?as we give up our traditions more and more individuals in the west adapt them?(((The same think is happening with cigarette smoking?.increasing in India?..decreasing in the West. ))) Dating vs Courtship - Laying a solid foundation for ... ... ... http://srd.yahoo.com/goo/arranged+marriage...s/datingbw.html Okay assume that you do find your soulmate via dating what do the statistics say after marriage? http://www.co.midland.mi.us/foc/stat.htm *50% of marriages end in divorce within 10 years. FACTS ABOUT MARITAL DISTRESS AND DIVORCE http://www.smartmarriages.com/7.html ARTICLE BELOW?. Facts About Marital Distress and Divorce Scott M. Stanley & Howard J. Markman University of Denver and PREP, Inc. Web: http://members.aol.com/prepinc (303) 759-9931 Younger people in the U.S. who are marrying for the first time face roughly a 40-50% chance of divorcing in their lifetime under current trends (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1992, p. 5). Of first marriages that end in divorce, many end in the first 3 to 5 years. (As one example, for first marriages ending in divorce among women aged 25 to 29, the median length of marriage before divorce in 1990 was 3.4 years; U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1992, p. 4). Adults and children are at increased risk for mental and physical problems due to marital distress (e.g., Cherlin & Furstenberg, 1994; Coie et al. 1993; Coyne, Kahn, & Gotlib, 1987; Cowan & Cowan, 1992; Fincham, Grych, & Osborne, 1993). Mismanaged conflict and negative interaction in marriage predicts both marital distress and negative effects for children (e.g., Gottman, 1994; Markman & Hahlweg, 1993; Clements, Stanley, & Markman, 1997; Cowan & Cowan, 1992; and Grych & Fincham, 1990). Marital problems are associated with decreased work productivity, especially for men (e.g., Forthofer, Markman, Cox, Stanley, & Kessler, 1996). A variety of studies suggest that the seeds of marital distress and divorce are there for many couples when they say, "I Do." These studies show that premarital (or early marital) variables can predict which couples will do well and which will not with accuracies of 80% up to 94% (e.g., Clements, Stanley, & Markman, 1997; Fowers, Montel, & Olson, 1996; Gottman, 1994; Karney & Bradbury, 1995; Kelly & Conley, 1987; and Rogge & Bradbury, in press). Many more couples live together prior to marriage than in the past--recent estimates are in the range of 60+% (Stanley & Markman, 1997; Bumpass & Sweet, 1991). These couples are less likely to stay married, probably mostly due to the fact that they are less conservative about marriage and divorce in the first place. Money is the one thing that people say they argue about most in marriage, followed by children (Stanley & Markman, 1997). But, there is a lot of reason to believe that what couples argue about is not as important as how they argue (Markman, Stanley, & Blumberg, 1994). Married men and women in all age groups are less likely to be limited in activity (a general health indice) due to illness than single, separated, divorced, or widowed individuals (National Center for Health Statistics, 1997). Children living with a single parent or adult report a higher prevalence of activity limitation and higher rates of disability. They are also more likely to be in fair or poor health and more likely to have been hospitalized (National Center for Health Statistics, 1997). The "triple threat" of marital conflict, divorce, and out-of-wedlock births has led to a generation of U.S. children at great risk for poverty, health problems, alienation, and antisocial behavior. Students saying 'I do' to arranged marriage ... in most of the world, arranged marriages are the norm. "We're the oddballs," said Rebecca Manning, a professor of India studies and religion studies at Indiana ... http://www.ksc-equinox.com/52-23/lifestyle...%20marriage.htm One survey of urban professionals living in India suggests that many agree with that assessment. More than half of the survey's respondents said they wanted their families to choose their mates "because elders know best." Another 20 percent said because they were guaranteed someone of similar social standing, and about 10 percent said they liked knowing they could count on family support during times of trouble. But do arranged marriages work? The same survey of urban professionals suggests they do indeed. Of those surveyed, 81 percent had arranged marriages, and of that group, 94 percent rated their unions "very successful."

Well, as far as my understanding goes Sikhs never tried to claim that they had the best religion and other religions were just a bunch of lies. Just sit with christian missionary or Islam missionary and you have to listen that Islam is the only way to reach that almighty and same goes for the christianity as they tell you that if you don't believe in Jesus then you will burn in hell fire on the day of judgement. I won't slander them for that but still I won't accept it because if I do that then im accepting indirectly that our Gurus lied to Us. This discussion is interesting and I liked the points made by canadian jatti ji and Gurpreet kaur but before we move further we need to go through following links for sure. Sikhism and other religions. http://www.sikhs.org/religion.htm This is the ultimate guide for Sikhism's distinctive identity. http://www.sikhi.org.uk/articles/files/sikhidistincta4.pdf

I don't think if you compare religions then you're slandring any religion or judging someone. We can't just throw everything on God. God gave us this life and as well as brain so we can ease up his work. This is the reason that we have judges and law enforcement otherwise if we go by word of GOD then there should not be any law enforcement and people should be allowed to kill anyone because if we are stopping them then we are judging them as well... :? Guru Nanak dev ji clearly said that "There was no Hindu and Musalmaan" and it doesn't mean that they were slandring anybody's religion or judging somoene but they were speaking the almighty's truth. Here is what I will read if I want to see the truth of GOD. Truth in Many paths- Why does Truth descriminate? Why I Don't Believe In These Religious Books http://sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...df005d6332?Open Beliefs That Have Harmed Mankind http://sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...b600473d02?Open Richard Dawkins: You Did Not Do Your Homework Well http://sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...54?OpenDocument Women & Discrimination http://sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...97006ec09a?Open Creator as Defined In Various Religions http://sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...b400741f3d?Open Pope Condemns Racism as a Sin http://sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...b4005b77bd?Open Economic Blockade of Dalits http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....ent&Highlight=0 These people don't follow truth, just blatant discrimination. And why do you think they discriminate. Because their God commands them to do so. This, my friend, is the Truth. How to evaluate religion All about Islam http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....51?OpenDocument Why I Am Not a Hindu: Kevin Baldeosingh http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....f9!OpenDocument Kevin Baldeosingh - Why I Am Not a Muslim http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....20!OpenDocument Kevin Baldeosingh - Why I Am Not a Christian http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....90!OpenDocument Status of Women in Different religions http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....ent&Highlight=0 Note: Humanity tells us that don't attack human physically but if you compare or question absurd beliefs then you're not going against humanity.