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dalsingh101

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Everything posted by dalsingh101

  1. I think he means guru as in spiritual teachers in general, not the Sikh ones, who were accepted as one in spirit long before this.
  2. I've asked someone to try and get hold of a copy. Why don't you try and translate the little bit about the amrit sanchar that is in online book in the meanwhile? Sort of like a warm up exercise.
  3. Definitely Gurmukhi. Can't make out what it says though. Do you reckon it's worth contacting them and telling them it's Sikh? Maybe trying to get a hi res image of the text to try and identify it?
  4. No, I believe there are Hindus that want to completely merge Sikhi into their scheme of faiths, these kids just see them everywhere.
  5. ਚਾਰੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਰਨ ਮਿਲਾਯ ਦੀਏ ਜਿਨ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮੈ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਰਹੀ ਬਿਸਨਾਈ (1) [He] combined the 4 castes, who stated that I will not remain Vaisnav [read Hindu?]. ਸੋਹਤ ਹੈ ਕਲਗੀ ਤਿਹ ਸੀਸ ਪੈ ਹੀਰਨ ਕੀ ਜੜਤੀ ਸੋਂ ਜੜਾਈ। Adorning a beautiful diamond set aigrette (kalgi) upon the head ਇੰਦਰ ਕੀ ਕਲਗੀ ਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਚੰਦ ਔ ਸੂਰ ਤੇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਵਾਈ। More beautiful than Indra's aigrette, greater than the light of the moon and sun ਮੋਤਿਨ ਮਾਲ ਬਸੈ ਗਰ ਪੈ ਜੈਸੇ ਸ਼ਯਾਮ ਗਰੇ ਬਨ ਮਾਲ (2) ਸੁਹਾਈ A necklace of jewels rested on the Guru like the beautiful garland on the neck of Krishna ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਹਾਵਤ ਹੀ ਜਿਨ ਤੀਨ ਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਮੈਂ ਕੀਨੀ ਗੁਰਾਈ।। Call him Gobind Singh who achieved guruship over the three people (presumably he is talking about the habitants of the trebhavans - mat lok, dev lok and asuras?) This guy may have witnessed it. He is said to be contemporary, so we need to give him attention. We have the early reference to the merging of castes which is important - especially with so many closet casteists today. Thing is Singh, if we are struggling with small pieces like this, translating large, manuscripts seems unrealistic. Anyway, have a look at the last few pages of this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36980070/Das-Guru-Katha-by-Kankan-Poet-Kavi-in-the-Durbar-of-Guru-Gobind-Singh-Sahib It says he asked for 5 Sikh heads, gave them pahul and refers to keeping kesh on the head (last paragraph).
  6. The roots of this type of mentality was geniune fear and paranoia in the Khalistani days. We know (with hindsight) that many outfits were infiltrated by government plants, so it wasn't an unfounded fear. Now youth use this language to describe anyone who deviates from their own understanding of what mainstream Sikh politics and maryada should be. They fear such people are placed there to destroy Sikh orthodoxy as they perceive it and merge us back into Hindus.
  7. Ha ha! Her pagh style is against maryada..... I bet you some of those complaining will be jealous, kudoo Panjabans. Females often get angry like that over competitive physical appearances. I think it's evolutionary. But it shows how dumb we can get as a community. With all the problems we have we can still find amritdharis to complain about someone else's turban style....
  8. Khoj, maybe you can help translate this from Kankan's Das Gur Katha?
  9. Although this seems like commonsense, I can't even imagine how our people would do this. We seem to have NOTHING to negotiate with as a people. No oil or other sought after natural resources. No intellect (like Jews) so we can corner things others struggle with (i.e legal, financial, media). No services skills, no manufacture. Instead we go abroad and generally do donkey, physical work mostly. Let's face it, we are small fish in global terms. Minnows. Before we can do anything, we need modern, progressive leadership in Panjab to put us on the table. Plus we have to ask, what effect would us becoming consuming machines of western products have? I think disease and all sorts to stupidity in our quom is going to come with this. Plus, it looks like it is neigh on impossible for anyone who is not an arsehole to become a Sikh 'leader' in India.
  10. Let's be brutally frank. A lot of romanticised revisioning of the past has been/is going on amongst our people.
  11. Frankly, pendus seem to have little aspiration other than go 'foreign' and work as builders/labourers out here. These people seem to have limited imaginations? I know a good few I meet regularly and they aren't interested in education and have a 'quick scheme' mentality. Maybe the village mentality doesn't help? You frequently meet pendus who are of average intelligence (at best) and still seem to think very highly of themselves i.e. more than they really should. Really Panjabi cities don't seem any better when you think about it. They are hardly hubs of opportunity. What happened to the famous Sikh entrepreneurial style? We need philanthropic industrialists. But that desi 'scamming' mentality creates a lot of problems with progress.
  12. Our people should be getting reading to make a financial killing in an emerging India in my opinion. But yes, all those murders in the 1980s are hard to stomach. I personally find it depressing, I can't even imagine how someone who personally witnessed or survived it must feel.... That being said, the ruling pan de yaars in Amritsar don't really seem to give a serious crap about the surviving family of victims, so maybe we need to just face up to the ugly fact that we are fully sold down the river by our haram zaday politicians, who seem more interested in having horse shows than ANY social work? Perhaps we need to learn from the attitude of the one legged nihang, who made a belligerent ardas that 'the unripe fruit has fallen from the tree' in response to the mass slaughter of Sikhs in the vada ghallagura? A part of me is glad that in a few generations the wounds will heal as contemporaries to the evil that befell our people will pass away leaving a generation free from the weight of it all. The psychology of being oppressed doesn't suit our people.
  13. Religion (or more specifically the relationship between Sikhs and Hindus) has become so politicised in India/Panjab that I doubt any solution to animosity is straight forward or quickly achievable. Truth is that Hindus and masses of Sikhs see themselves as having divergent interests. They are locked in a competitive battle, which, seeing as Sikhs have been largely disenfranchised and are a minority, makes their stance difficult. The position is analogous to a much bigger group (Hindus) being in a strong fort on top of a hill with a smaller group (apnay) underneath. The position of the larger groups makes it easy for them to throw things down and damage the smaller, vulnerable group beneath. Not withstanding that the small group in this case have a history of being tough, resilient bastards (whether they can live up to this legacy today is a matter for another discussion.) The nation within a nation idea isn't actually a bad one, if it can be achieved without dragging us into further unnecessary conflicts. That Jat insularity habit of turning EVERYONE into their enemies, which often gets redirected towards Sikhi in general needs to stop now as well. Because it is just too much to have people from outside acting like jerks towards us and some idiot supremacist bewakoof Sikhs causing internal purthoo on top of that too. Has it got to the point where the antagonistic dynamic is now so deeply entrenched that it is insurmountable? Could working towards a common goal, mutually beneficial to both parties help? Is there even any will for a rapprochement? For that to take place we need new narratives, because the old ones pretty much guarantee more friction. Even if Sikhs have genuine grievances. Plus we have to ask, is the current manifestation of the issue about religion anymore or is it really just about economics, status and culture?
  14. I can't figure out if this is indicative of Kipling having an actual belief in the underlying idea of white men (more accurately colonialists) being burdened with looking after ungrateful savages in an altruistic way, or if this is satire of this notion?
  15. Why is it India always seems to be on a back footing in internal situations like this? It really reinforces the stereotype of the 'cowardly Hindoos'. If what KDS is saying is true, then India needs to play it smart and avoid conflict. No doubt the west would play up to threats to flog more weapons that way. Whilst taking advantage of the west is advantageous to an extent, over playing this could lead to an unhealthy dependence. Besides India itself has a massive untapped market (hence all the western interest), and this could easily be taken advantage of to develop a high degree of self sufficiency. Plus we know Indians can do jobs as well as any whiteys from their success abroad, so the capability is there. All it needs is some visionary leadership.
  16. I asked my very old nani before she passed away and she told me females wearing dastars was a minority practice and chunnis were more commonly used to cover the head by Sikh females. Like I said, it seems to have been minority practice amongst Sikh women. Sure, some wore it, no one is disputing that, but whether it was the norm, like it was/is amongst Sikh men seems highly unlikely given the evidence. To me it appears as if it was the wives of nihangs who did this the most in the past?
  17. I feel compelled to say: Sarbhat, you seem to be having mental health issues now. Seriously. I'm sure there is some category in the DSM that describes this obsessive/compulsive behaviour. You just mostly post youtube clips and c&p articles these days. All about one subject....... Can you not see the unhealthy way you are becoming quite obsessed with all this? Do you have enough objectivity to break out of that bubble you are in right now and comprehend what I am trying to express to you? Or are you too far gone? Admin, I'm sick of his 'Islamatsunami' - can't you just make him stick it all in a single thread or something?
  18. What if we can't with 100% certainty? The nearest sources seem quite sparse in such details. But it would be interesting to see what we come out with if we combined Sainpati's Gursobha, Sewa das's parchian, Kankan's Das Gur Katha accounts (plus any other contemporary/near contemporary ones). We still aren't going to get a lot of detail about the ceremony though. I don't know anything about them. What if no one was counting? Yes. I'm still shocked that Bhangu's Panth Parkash doesn't mention it. Nothing to it. Seems like Singh Sabha just formalised the use of Kaur for all Sikh females, whereas before this seems to have been different? I'd guess Bhai Randhir Singh. He seems to have had the most success in popularising it anyway. Thing with individual cases like that is that we can argue till we are blue in the face about it and still never know for certain. Plus for certain 'pious' types there could be no question that he wasn't amritdhari. Better than this would be to try and draw the essence of what the unquestionable works attributed to him are conveying I reckon. You hit the nail on the head here. But seeing as understanding even printed 'ye olde' Gurmukhi can be very difficult for the average Joe Singh, what chance is there of reading/understanding manuscripts with larivaar writing! Any other nation would have university departments dedicated to this type of research but as usual, our lot are slack to an extreme in this area. Plus people are wary, because when apnay get faced with uncomfortable facts about our itihaas, that question the modern accepted narrative, they get upset and turn it into some sort of angry battle with serious aspersions cast on people. I can understand as on one hand as goray DO like to undermine other people's cultures in this way, but when this hostility turns internally, into yet another divisive fissure in an already a splintered quom, it makes you rue. But yes, I'd like to see more quality translations and studies of our written heritage/history. With the fortunes received by the SGPC, I find it sad, this is not being done already. But they are hardly going to deviate from a conservative interpretation in any case.
  19. Sarbat has to bring Islam into everything. Nutjob.
  20. Love this reply: Hubert Harrison THE BLACK MAN'S BURDEN (A REPLY TO RUDYARD KIPLING) from When Africa Awakes (New York, 1920)
  21. How relevant is this famous poem today?
  22. I've heard there are such discrepancies but no one disputes the event. Any differences of dates doesn't really really affect the faithful, it's more of an academic issue. I'd always thought so, but then this was influenced by oral renditions of the Vasaikhi story I heard growing up. We have to establish the first source for the 5 mukte story and find some motive for making it up. Prof. Sahib Singh seems to think about 25,000. There seems to be a strong case for kesh, kashera and 5 weapons. That isn't to say that kanghay and karay weren't worn from the beginning as well. We've discussed the surname thing on the forum before. It appears as if the Singh Sabha standardised the use of the name Kaur (which was used before), whilst successfully terminating the use of 'Devi' as a female Sikh surname. I've only seen a few, rare European images of female nihangs wearing a pagh, most of the surviving images of Sikh females don't appear to have them wearing keskis/dummalahs. Don't know if any women took amrit on the original day though. Later they clearly did. There are mentions of sehajdharis in the Chaupa rehit and some cases of prominent nonKhalsa Sikhs (like Kaura Maal). This would suggest no. It's interesting but sometimes it just seems to lead to grief and recriminations. lol Besides, I do believe that there is much that we probably can't establish with absolute certainty based on the surviving historical evidence, so the endeavour leads us back to fuzzyish grasp of the past. Gaps which may well be filled with oral traditions. So we have to recogise (from the beginning) that such endeavours can lead to as many questions as answers and be careful not to get distracted from the act of dharam itself, amongst all the intellectualising. Too many people do this and then start crying about loss of faith.
  23. Check out the confidence of the Paks, who blatantly take the pi55 out of the west/America and then India, with its stereotypical 'pussy' sycophant image. Indians are a weak people generally. That's why they have been invaded/dominated for so long, by so many people. I don't know why India wants to flex it against China because they will only get their arse kicked in and end up demoralising everyone, like Nehru did. If India had brains it would try not to be dependent on the west, but it looks like they are going the 'pet' route.
  24. Before anyone even responds, we should recognise that itihaasik research (or more specifically textual based research) can often contradict the traditional understanding of the faith. This can cause a lot of upset (as it is seen as an attack on the faith) and accusations of being antiSikh.
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