dalsingh101

I think I may be expressing my thoughts rather poorly on the matter. Allow me to try again. What I mean to say is that I believe that priorities were reordered during this time. The need to prepare for war and organise for this obviously became a high priority for the Guru. I'm not suggesting that bani, bhagti was completely abandoned, rather the miri aspect of things took a more central stage than before. Leading to the (erroneous) impression that the more strictly spiritual stuff was being neglected. I think the vaar clearly reflects these sentiments. So whereas before, there would have been a strong focus on solely spiritual people, Guru ji in his capacity as a leader began courting potential fighters, hence questions about his new associates. He also introduced hunting too, which may have been (seen as distracting if not inappropriate innovations to those who had a disinclination to such things or those who didn't understand the Guru's wider aims and objectives with such actions. All in all, this wasn't wasn't neglecting spirituality at all (in Sikh terms) as one of the duties of the Gurus's was addressing the matter of the physical protection of the panth - on top of their spiritual needs. If anything it was a holistic approach to religious leadership. If this took a front burner in the period following the brutal state execution of Guru Arjan Devi ji, it shouldn't surprise us. Hope this makes things more clear?

Okay people, what are: ਅਨੋਖੀਆਂ ? ਟੱਪਲਾ As in - ਸੱਜਣ ਟੱਪਲਾ ਖਾ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ

I've been asked to forward the following vacancy to any apnay who may be eligible to apply (not many I imagine).

No, but he represented something golden, a spirit that was sadly and sorely missed subsequently. You know what, maybe the period of colonisation was our century of shame? Only you know it isn't - because I frequently meet twats who are proud as heck about subjugation like it's some golden achievement..... You know the type. Speak to them. They have been convinced they are 'high caste' as opposed to illiterate pendus. Not only that, there are plenty of pendus who feel Brits did us a favour by invading. Mad but true. I'm beginning to feel the community really is made up of distinct subcomponents who really don't have much in common despite a surface impression to the opposite. Your stock explanation phrase is a useful one to explain events. It's just a shame the majority of apnay don't adopt that perspective. Have a look at the attached picture. It says a thousand words. Anyway back to negative media portrayals. Here's a more modern one, read about halfway. Sort of all ties up. Getting involved in dubious wars for other people is not a good look.

Moving back to Sikh media representations....... What would a Sikh Rab Nesbitt look like? lol

They are lovely people but you did set the bar low for them with the comparison. Well what is your evidence that they were liked so much? I'm talking from a manly, patriotic perspective anyway. I know If I was a Chinese man with any spirit left I would have detested these overseer monkeys brought in to subjugate my nation. I'm sure you got the usual opportunistic types who just accepted it though and became part of the new system with a big f**king grin on their face. lol I don't recall this source. You'll have to dig it up. Besides you sound like you are desperately looking for friends in the Chinese? I know they aren't bitter btw. That's more us (and with good reason too!) lol I'm more embarrassed about the way our people behaved. Unquestioning lapdogs. But I know I'm in a minority. Plenty of people proud as f**k about it. And I don't agree with you. Whites are experts at hiding stuff. If Sikhs did dirt against them in a conflict - we'd hear it in minute detail but vice versa and we'd hear a pin drop. When they go out, they cover their shit - it would have been natural for them to keep any mention of gundh from their side off the record. They always do. That would include shit by our own people. How many accounts of atrocities against 'Injuns' and aborigines have they kept for example. Hell, even more recent stuff like the evil shit against the Mau Mau's been played down or covered up. Anyway, I'm tired of the whole 'Sikh imperial soldier' narrative. making excuses for it this way or that. Give me Ghadrs, Bhai Maharaj, Bhagat Singh instead any day. Sham Singh Attariwalia - miss your spirit deeply.

Interesting points. But I think that chevin padshah probably did turn the volume down on the prayer, devotional side of things and focused on the military/physical for a bit - to balance things out and prepare for the real threat facing the community. You can blatantly tell from the vaar that Guru ji was patronising the brave, anakhi, fighter types that softer, 'spiritual' people probably avoided like the plague. Hence the next line: Maybe it refers to settling in Kartarpur by Baba Nanak, plus Guru Arjan dev ji went out of his way to establish Amritsar as a rallying point for Sikhs. From the perspective/experience of many of their Panjabi followers, the previous Gurus would have been quite static once they settled themselves down as opposed to a hunting Guru, who obviously courted 'toughs'. The Babur incident (and presumably the Guru Angad one) are oral traditions with no external verification, whereas we have contemporary mention of Guru Hargobind's imprisonment. Akhbar favoured Guru Arjan. I think these are significant differences. I think there is more truth in them than you do. ALthough I concede the point about the use of poetic devices, I still think we get a clear picture of what was going on.

I don't see it myself. Plus I doubt you mix with people who represent the everyday Chinese. I don't think so. I think they were detested and feared. Whatever the worst did there, our people were on the same side. This leaves a legacy. Plus I doubt they were as angelic as you think.

They are really good at bullshiting. Professionals. Even their prophet used to lie to his wives and get caught sleeping with one, when he should've been with another.

There is an actual unifying thread in all this. The portrayal of Sikhs in the media. I'm glad HSD bought that old school reference up. Brought back memories. Brue Lee rocks! And you know what, no matter how good media might be able to make us look theoretically, if the portrayed image is generally unreflective of how people perceive sardars when they meet them in the flesh, people will soon see through the bullshit. Along with media perhaps we need to reflect on and foster positive changes in Sikh man's thinking and behaviour?

I thought it worked quite well actually. It's very select mind you.... <sniffs snobbishly and turns his head away>

This sort of contradicts the contemporary comments of Gur Hargobind in Bhai Gurdas's vaars?

I remember in the film he craps his knickerh at Brucie and starts blowing his whistle to get 'back up'. There is no need to imply by the way, plenty of our people's were Anglo's 'smelly lackeys' (That's cockney rhyming slang by the way - try and work out for what!) I've actually been struggling to read Ommisi's book of Indian soldier's letters because the sycophancy is so unadulterated from our lot, it's embarrassing. Cringe worthy..... Sikhs played a conspicuous role in China, especially during the Opium wars. No wonder they remember us like that. If India and China ever went to war, they'd probably start pumping propaganda about the perceived insults and injustices they received at the hands of the pendu 'storm troopers'. Funny thing is that if you go to any West London Singh Sabha Gurdwara they'd probably be remembering these things as some sort of glory days. lol

I haven't finished it yet, but I'd say it was about introducing Jaap and educating Sikhs in general. I'll get a move on with it. Needed something to push me on it actually.

Yeah I remember him, a stocky oriental fellow who was 'blackened up' lol! Colonial guard dog I tell you!

Here we go with that same old Jatt bullshit again. Why not campaign to have the faith renamed Jattism from Sikhism? <rolls eyes> Backwards.

I'm working on translating something by Prof. Sahib Singh that relates to this (his opinion on how Jaap Sahib was introduced to the community). I should have it done shortly (with God's grace).

Thing is, if you are saying our own stock is rotten, then you have to be honest enough to admit a large part of the reason for this would be the way we are raising them.

* ਦਿਰ੍ਸ਼ ਤ ਕੋਨ - drisht(i)kon - I know this one I think: "From the perspective of" * ਪੂਰਾ ਤੱਤ ਬੇਤਾ - pura tat betta - Knower of all elements?

If you're talking about Bruce Lee's film? Yes many years ago.

I don't know how relevant your story is. I mean, I've known plenty of sardars to slap up their missus too. That is just a luck thing, she could have gone with a keshdhari and still got slapped about. But okay, I get the point that girls are requesting clean shaven boys these days. What is karva chauth? Most women are dense like that anyway. Once at uni (where normally they will not say a single word against women), I remember a social psychology class where the lecturer admitted that studies proved women were infinitely more likely to be influence by media and certain types of social pressure than blokes. And this was a women saying it. Indian Sikhs seem to like any old shit Bollywood makes. They'd even watch a film with a derogatory portrayal of an apna no problem. To me any apna who regularly watches Bolly films has a screw loose. Okay, You've sold the culpability of Punjabi films in all this to me, but these do just seem to be 'modern Jatt' films. Plus I have to say, I do see strange people very similar to those sardar clowns in our actual community, like guys with lime green turbans with matching shirts.......wtf!! No sense of colour, style or reserve. Plus something has happened to the way Sikhs tie paghs these days, they don't look as good as like my fathers generation's did, who wore them in varying styles. Now every last person's pagh looks identical to this one! (apart from gol dastar wearers) Even worse is when grown men or boys well into their teens are still rocking a patka - wth! When I was teaching only one boy used to wear a dastaar, the rest had patkas. All of them all the time. Then you have brothers who wear a patka and put the joora on the front?? This makes them look like they are wearing one of them coal miners helmets with the fog light on the front. When I went to Paunta Sahib, they showed me a special place where Guru Gobind Singh ji used to have competitions to see who could tie the best dastaar. Truth is that certain brothers don't seem to make much effort in this department. That can't help with the girls. Some better media portrayals may help to an extent, but still, sardars could do a lot more at ground level too?

Dare I ask. What does this mean?

Maybe a part of this is also related to how so many Sikh boys grow up to be quite nerdy these days? All I know is, when a guy is confident, good looking and looks like he is affluent, turban or not, he will get girls. Something not spoken of often is that maybe a lot of Sikh guys don't get socialised with females very well and thus don't know how to act around them. I don't know what it is like now, but a generation ago, Sikh parents would go an extra mile to keep males and females apart. In the modern context (whether we approve of it or not), a lot relationships seem to stem from initial social interactions. If Sikhs guys have been prevented from learning about this from a young age...well the consequences are obvious in university campuses in England where Sikh girls get attention from everyone (but apnay). We have that mentality that this stuff is wrong, other quoms don't. What can we say. We are so far behind in so many fields it is unbelievable. Panjabi films are really casteist vehicles with nothing intelligent or witty to say. Other communities seem to be able to create nonEnglish films that get respected like the Chinese and Japs, we can't. Visually, what we produce sucks. See a Panjabi film with western eyes, and you'll agree. Compare it to some lavish, stylish Chinese/Japanese production. So even if we put a sardar in a lead role, the film would probably be so shit by the time we made it, it would just further compound the problem it tried to resolve. Plus when Sikh men do try and pull, the conservatives object to it being 'kaami'. lol I still say personal experiences and the attributes of apnay are more important than films (though these can help). If women frequently met 'sexy', great looking, stylish Sikh guys with attractive personalities, and prospects - they would be a catch and they would talk about them positively amongst themselves. But I imagine, these days they probably view sardars as conservative, no fun, bores - who are probably momma's boys? That being said, my best mate for a long time was a sardar, who used to pull birds all the time (the tart)! From all races.. Okay he was trimmed, but it does show you, that it's not impossible and individual personalities make a big difference. But one one hand, the communities conservative values stops guys 'pulling' girls, whilst on the other hand it complains that girls aren't going for the guys. Something seems askew with this, but I can't put my finger on it though? But going back to my OP. Maybe we need our own Sikh 'clown' character, but one that has something interesting to say about us and society in an intelligent, witty and humourous way. Like Rab C Nesbit. I just realised, Sikhs are really shite at writing things like that. And as for acting.........

I tell you what, I've seen plenty of women swooning over good looking sardars, so I don't think its that.