singh2

Kal is not time only.It has multiple meanings. Namo Kaal Kale Jap Sahib Above guru sahib is saluting Kal as God saying that You are death of death. Meaning of kal is to be interpreted per context. Guru ji writes Namo Sarab kale Namo sarab dyale Namo sarab Rupe Namo Sarba bhupe Here sarab kale is salutation to God.

Kal is functional name of God. ਔਰ ਸੁਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਬਸ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕਾਲ ਅਕਾਲ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੮੪॥ और सुकाल सभै बस काल के एक ही काल अकाल सदा है ॥८४॥ All the other prevalent object are within KAL, only One supreme KAL is ever Timeless and eternal.84. Bachitra natak

Pujari ji God is capable of doing anything.There is no restriction to his acts. What was being said by some that these devtas( Brahma , Vishnu, mahesh etc) are God. That is not acknowledged in sikhism Our gurus had told us to consider shabad as our Guru. Please read about ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥ ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥ I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place. ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥ ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥ They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7. ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥ Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥ ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥ Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8. ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥ Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity. ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥ ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥ But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9. ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥ परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥ Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara. ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥ केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥ Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10. ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥ किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥ Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water. ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥ केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥ Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11. ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥ जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥ All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme. ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥ ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥ They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12 ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥ जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥ When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place. Bachitra natak

Harjas Guru teg bahadar ji gave his life for religious freedom of weak people.Muslim were rulers and aurangzeb was converting Hindus by force.Guru sahib came to the rescue of oppressed. so do not communalise his scarifice as it was for nobel mission.

There is a difference in potential of avtars.They are not of same kind. Gurbani states that Brahma , vishnu and shiva were not able to realize akal purakh. So they were not akal purakh.

harjas Sikhs are not idol worshippers.Sikhs are idol breakers( No offense to any religion). Sikhs are not believers in caste system that is backbone of sanatan dharma. Please keep sanatan dharma to yourself and do not preach those ideas to us. It is a shame that you have chosen this site in propagating your malicious agneda here.There are millions and millions of low caste Hindus who are leading sub servient life in India.Please channelise your energy in removing disparity in Hindu society there so that they are accorded human diginty.Otherwise you are losing them to otehr religions.That should be top your priority if you care for Hinduism.Stop converting sikhs. We wish all religions best, respect them and consider religions as different paths in achieving union with God.

Sikhs are facing two enemies.One enemy is within that says Dasam granth sahib is not written by Guru sahib. Then there is external enemy that says that SGGS ji and Dasam Granth contain verses that are written in praise of deities. Both are dead wrong.

Waheguru as sargun means he is also in his creation.That creation includes you, me, all humanity and Durga also. In Hinduism avtar means God descends from heaven to earth and lives there.Sikhism does not endorse that.

If we read Dasam Granth sahib carefully belief of Guru sahib is evident. Guru sahib writes in Bachitra natak ਯਾ ਕਲ ਮੈਂ ਸਭ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਭਾਰੀ ਭੁਜਾਨ ਕੋ ਭਾਰੀ ਭਰੋਸੋ ॥੯੨॥ या कल मैं सभ काल क्रिपान के भारी भुजान को भारी भरोसो ॥९२॥ In this Iron age or kalyug, i repose my supreme trust in KAL, Who is the Sword-incarnate and hath mighty arms.92. ਸੁੰਭ ਨਿਸੁੰਭ ਸੇ ਕੋਟ ਨਿਸਾਚਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਛਿਨੇਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਹਨਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥ सु्मभ निसु्मभ से कोट निसाचर जाहि छिनेक बिखै हनि डारे ॥ He, who hath destroyed millions of demons like Sumbh and Nisumbh in and instant. ਧੂਮਰਲੋਚਨ ਚੰਡ ਔ ਮੁੰਡ ਸੇ ਮਾਹਿਖ ਸੇ ਪਲ ਬੀਚ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥ धूमरलोचन चंड औ मुंड से माहिख से पल बीच निवारे ॥ Who hath annihilated in and instant the demons like Dhumarlochan, Chand, Mund and Mahishasura. ਚਾਮਰ ਸੇ ਰਣਿ ਚਿੱਛਰ ਸੇ ਰਕਤਿੱਛਣ ਸੇ ਝਟ ਦੈ ਝਝਕਾਰੇ ॥ चामर से रणि चि्छर से रकति्छण से झट दै झझकारे ॥ Who hath immediately thrashed and thrown down far away the demons like Chamar, Ranchichchhar and Rakat Beej. ਐਸੋ ਸੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪਾਇ ਕਹਾ ਪਰਵਾਹ ਰਹੀ ਇਹ ਦਾਸ ਤਿਹਾਰੇ ॥੯੩॥ ऐसो सु साहिब पाइ कहा परवाह रही इह दास तिहारे ॥९३॥ On realizing the Lord like Thee, this servant of yours doth not care for anyone else.93. Bachitra natak The above makes it clear crystal clear that for Guru sahib akal purakh was supreme entity.Furtehr He writes ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥ क्रिसन औ बिसन जपे तुहि कोटिक राम रहीम भली बिधि धिआयो ॥ Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਹਿ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥ ब्रहम जपिओ अरु स्मभु थपिओ तहि ते तुहि को किनहूं न बचायो ॥ Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee. Bachitra natak

I was born and brought up in Punjab.No one among sikhs venerate any Devi.For nihungs chandi or bhagauti is kirpan and not any multi armed devi. Dasma granth is very clear on positions of these demigods. if some sikh writers have made some mistakes in their writings those do not represnt sikh view. ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥ He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain. ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥ The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there. Akal ustat, Dasam Granth There are a lot of metaphorical names used in dasam Granth. Nowhere they represent sargun form of God.

Most of quotes by harjas kaur are crap and taken out of context. Durga's specifications have been fixed by tenth master in Dasam Granth. She is creation of God and is shown as a historical figure. Nowhere she is shown as absolute Goddess as Hindus think. What harjas wrirtes as devi ju ki ustat, that ustat is of akal purakh and not of any devi. She needs to read this with her eyes open and not shut.

Harjas you wrote earlier in this thread Why do not you abide by your committment and stop hijacking the thread again and again. God fearing persons honour their word.

There is a saying in Punjabi " Kutte di pooachh sar gai par wat nahin gaya ( Dog's tail is burnt but twist is still there)". This is the mentality of these nastik kala afghani chelas.They have neither read dasam Granth sahib nor have intellect to understand this. Durga is supreme God for Hindu sect. But Guru sahib while taking the base story of Durga from purana altered her characterstics. She was not shown as God but a creation of akal Purakh.Hence dimensions of Durga are different in Dasam granth. ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥ तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥ O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons. ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥ तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥ Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows. Chandi di vaar Dr Tarlochan singh who did reasearch on dasam granth and whose articles appeared in The sikh review in 1950s noted as below on this point. The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 2 - Philosophical Works) - Dr. Trilochan Singh Quote 2. The second point of confusion is about some lines occurring at the end of Chandi Charitar giving the fruit of reciting the Chandi song. These lines are: a. First Chandi Charitar: "For whatever purpose a person reads this life of Chandi, it shall definitely be granted to him." b. Second Chandi Charitar: "Even if a foolish person reads the life of Chandi, immense wealth will be bestowed on him. If a coward reads it he will be able to fight most bravely; if a yogi reads it he will attain siddhi and if a student reads it he will attain knowledge." c. Third Panjabi version Durga ki var: "He who recites Durga's life will not take birth again." All these are not the opinions of Guru Gobind Singh. They are the opinions of the writers of the original which Guru Gobind Singh faithfully translated. To dissociate himself and his ideal from it, Guru Gobind Singh either added a short introduction or an epilogue to each of these versions of Chandi. Guru Gobind Singh's opinions, giving his own faith were: (a) In the First Chandi Charitar he said: deh siva bar mohe ehai, shubh carman te kabhu na taro, na daro ar so jab jae laro, niscai kar aprni jit karo, ar sikh hau apne hi man kau eh lalac hau gun tau ucro, jab av kd audh nidan banai at hi ran mai tab jujh maro Give me this power, O Almighty: From righteous deeds I may never refrain, Fearlessly may I fight all the battles of life, Full confidence may I ever have In asserting my moral victories, May my supreme ambition and learning be To sing of Thy glory and victory. When this mortal life comes to a close May I die with the joy and courage of a martyr. ( The second Chandi Charitar is a part of the Bachiter Natak Granth. The Bachiter Natak has a collective introduction in which Guru Gobind Singh repeatedly wrote that he did not believe in the worship of gods and goddesses. In verses 92 and 93 Guruji said, "It is through Thy power, O God, that Durga destroyed the demons like Sumbh, Nisumbh, Dhumer and Lochan, Chand and Mund. It is through Thy power, O God, that Rama destroyed Ravana." And he concludes, Also “so sahib pae kaha parvah rahi eh das tiharo—With such a supreme One as my Lord, what care I, Thy servant, for anything or anyone?" In the next stanza Guruji commented on the avatars and goddesses who were instrumental in killing all these and said, "Kahe ko kur kare tapasa inki kou kaudi ke kam na aihai—Why indulge ye in the futile worship of these deities? Their worship is not worth a kaudi (one-twentieth of a penny) (c) The third Panjabi version has a long introduction, a part which forms the national prayer. In it the Guru invoked the grace and blessings of God and the nine Gurus. taihi durga saj kai daita da nas karaya, taitho hi bal ram lai nal bana dehsir ghaia, taitho hi bal krishan lai kans kesi pakad giraya, bade bade muni devte kai jug tini tan laia, kini tera nht na paya. It is Thou who created Durga and had the demons destroyed, From Thee derived Rama all the strength to kill the ten-headed Ravana. From Thee derived Krishna all his strength to catch Kans by the hair and dash him to the ground. Great seers and sages in all ages strained hard in penance to know Thee. None, none has attained Thy end. In these short prologues and epilogues Guru Gobind Singh made his own opinion about Durga quite clear. He took these figures simply as historical persons of note and nothing else.

kal of dasam Granth is akal and not any devi or devta. ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਸੁ ਜਾਗਤ ਯਾ ਜਗ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਕਲਾ ਹੈ ॥ काल ही पाइ भयो भगवान सु जागत या जग जा की कला है ॥ At the instance of KAL, Vishnu appeared, whose power is manifested through the world. ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਸਿਵ ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਜੁਗੀਆ ਹੈ ॥ काल ही पाइ भयो ब्रहमा सिव काल ही पाइ भयो जुगीआ है ॥ At the instance of KAL, Brahma appeared and also at the instance of KAL the Yogi Shiva appeared. ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਜੱਛ ਭੁਜੰਗ ਦਿਸਾ ਬਿਦਿਸਾ ਹੈ ॥ काल ही पाइ सुरासुर गंध्रब ज्छ भुजंग दिसा बिदिसा है ॥ At the instance of KAL, the gods, demons, Gandharvas, Yakshas, Bhujang, directions and indications have appeared. ਔਰ ਸੁਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਬਸ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕਾਲ ਅਕਾਲ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੮੪॥ और सुकाल सभै बस काल के एक ही काल अकाल सदा है ॥८४॥ All the other prevalent object are within KAL, only One supreme KAL is ever Timeless and eternal.84. Bachitra natak

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dal singh 101 You can debate with a person who is genuine at heart and sincere.You cann't debate with a thug whose motive is to draw propaganda advantage. You might have seen Jeonwala was not sticking to one subject .He was hopping from hell to heaven.He starts with one point and then jumps to four other points.The intention was not to concentrate on one subject and resolve that.The motive was to cause confusion. In light of this such comment was appropriate. There are some points that need to be watched carefully in this debate. 1) Jeonwala said why there is no mention of Amrit sanchar of 1699 in Dasam Granth.Per him since there is no mention of Amrit sanchar in Dasam Granth it is not written by Guru Sahib.That shows he has not read it even. He is simply doing propaganda as tutored by others.Sukhbir was justified to unmask this. 2) Jeonwala said that Jaap shaib is from Shiv Purana.He could not show that in Shiv Purana. That shows he does not believe in Banis of amrit sanchar.He is doing propaganda. 3) There is a word landy that comes in Dasam Granth.These self made scholars make it lady and say that since English is mentioned in Dasam granth it is written by Britishers. In fact it is a sanskrit word and it means coward.Jeonwala is changing words on his own for propaganda sake to mislead people. 4) Jeonwala had been propagating that Chandi charitra is a copy of markandey purana.When asked to show where is shabad " Deh siva bar mohe hain-" in the puranas he drew blank. 5) Joenwal says there is no proof that dasam banis were read during amrit sanchar of 1699.When he is given reference of Bhai Jaita ji's Granth and Bhat vahis he keeps quiet. He had no answer and this shows how misled he is. 6)Jeonwala failed to grasp the concept of metaphors used extensively in dasam Granth as he did not understand terms used for God.When singhs pointed that to him.He just kept quiet.

Chandi di vaar is in praise of akal purakh and not Durga.Durga is a fighter and is shown as fighting demons. The main purpose is to infuse warrior spirit by imagery of battle scenes.Secondary point is to tell people that she is not an independent power but creation of akal purakh.

Vishnu is also known as bishen.There are various other names for vishnu namely Madhav, Vasudeva, Prabhu, Chatur Bhuj. Krishna is an avtar of vishnu. Guru Gobind singh ji writes in Dasam Granth that he does not recognise them as God. He is only a believer in akal purakh.

This debate itself was between sikhs and a non sikh. Jeonwala is not a sikh. I am informed there were three Hindi speaking Hindus with him in the studio.

Jeonwala is a rogue character. his intention was not to debate but further his propaganda against Dasam granth. He never stuck to one point.He had come thee to get wider audience for propaganda purpose. Such people do need such harsh responses.Singhs were cool but responded accordingly to his mischief.They have taken the initiative and tamed the bull.They need our appreciation.

[ Bhasauria did not condemn Jaap sahib , akal ustat and bachitra natak.These people condemn everything. They are agents of anti sikh forecs.I will not even call them sikhs.At best they are non believers.

They are illeterate persons who ahev no knowledge of world affairs. It is worth to mention that existence of nib was established in 79 AD when metallic nib( copper) was found in ruins of Pompey.Use of nibs was done extensively in Egypt in 858 AD. Nib was brought to India by Portuguese who had their colony in Goa during Guru sahib's times.

http://www.panthic.org/articles/5216 TORONTO KALA-AFGHANI JEONVALA WASHED-OUT IN DEBATE WITH PANTHIC SINGHS PANTHIC.ORG | Published on February 10, 2010 Courtesy: Sur Sagar TV, Toronto Toronto, Canada - A loud and boisterous debate took place last weekend in Toronto between Panthic Singhs and an anti-Dasam Granth nindak, Gurcharan Brar Jeonvala. As predicted, the Panthic Singhs soundly refuted every point Jeonvala raised and in turn presented many irrefutable proofs in support of the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth. Jeonvala, the mind behind numerous anti-Panthic articles and websites originating from Toronto, had been regularly challenging supporters of Sri Dasam Granth to debate with him, and thus had become the de-facto spokesperson for the local Kala-Afghani lobby. Whereas Jeonvala represented the anti-Panthic lobby, Bhai Sukhbir Singh and Bhai Sukhmander Singh were backed by pro-Panthic organizations, such as the Akhand Kirtan Jatha (Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib), DamDami Taksal, Shahbaaz Khalsa to bring forth the Panthic viewpoint. The debate was aired on Sur Sagar TV’s ‘Bhakhday Maslay” weekly show hosted by Ravinder Singh Pannu. Sur Sagar TV is Toronto areas’ oldest and longest running Punjabi TV channel and is widely watched by the local Punjabi population. Bhai Sukhbir Singh began the debate by explaining the history surrounding Sri Dasam Granth and the historical texts which support it including the writings of Bhai Jaita or Bhai Jeevan Singh, Bansavalinama P: 10 by Kesar Singh Chhiber and Guru Kian Sakhian by Sarup Singh Kaushish. Bhai Sukhbir Singh further established that no Sikh scholar including Bhai Kanh Singh Nabha, Gyani Dit Singh or Prof. Sahib Singh ever opposed Dasam Granth. Furthermore, and most importantly Dasam Granth is an inseparable part of the Nitnem and Ardas which are recited daily by Sikhs. In an attempt to prove his point, Jeonvala began to quote some historical texts out of context and distort history but was cut off by the host of the show Mr. Pannu, for his intentional misinterpretations. English words in Sri Dasam Granth? When asked to present any proof to support his allegation that Sri Dasam Granth was not the work of Sri Guru Gobind Singh, Jeonvala attempted to quote verses which he stated contained English words such as ‘near’ and ‘lady’. The Panthic Singhs left Jeonvala without any answer when they showed him that the word “lady” was in fact “layndee” which means coward and is not an English word in any way. Further, when the same methodology is used on the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the Singhs showed that several words were common in English and Punjabi such as the word “day”. The debate took a humorous turn when Jeonvala was reduced to repeating obscenities when he could not explain the tuk : ਦੇਇ ਕਿਵਾੜ ਅਨਿਕ ਪੜਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਫਾਕੈ ॥ (ਰਾਗ ਸੋਰਠਿ, ਅੰਗ: ੬੧੬) Jaap Sahib from Shiv Puraan? Jeonvala’s ignorant arguments took another twisted turn when he attempted to state that contents of Sri Dasam Granth were copied from Shiv Puraan and Markande Puraan. When asked to substantiate this allegation, he was unable to do so and could only state that one line of Shiv Puraan reads “Kaal Kaal” which he ridiculously suggested was proof that Sri Jaap Sahib was copied from, drawing laughter from the Panthic Singhs and even the studio members. Intrestingly, not too long ago, another pro-Kala-Afghani, Inder Ghagga, had claimed that Jaap Sahib was from Markande Puraan, like Jeonvala he too failed to provide any evidence backing this preposterous claim. When none of Jeonvala ’s arguments were successful, he resorted to plain name calling, slandering Sri Dasam Bani as “kanjar kavita”, resulting in demands for him to retract his statement by the host Mr. Pannu. Having no other choice, Jeonvala meekly agreed to retract his statement. Some of the key points made by the Panthic Singhs in the debate included: * Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, including : Bachittar Natak Granth, Chabees Avtar Granth, and CharitroPakhyian Granth. * Sri Dasam Granth Sahib was also known as Dasam Patshah Ji Ka Granth, and was standardized for off-set printing in the late 1800s by the Panth. * Amrit and Nitnem Banis are documented by eye-accounts written in the Bhatt Vahees, and Bhai Jaita Ji (Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji) writes his eye-witness account as: ਪਾਂਚ ਕਕਾਰ ਸੰਪੂਰਣ ਦੇਖਿ ਕੈ ਯਾਚਕ ਸਿਖਹਿ ਸੰਮੁਖ ਬੈਠੀਜੈ। ਜਲੋ ਬਤਾਸੇ ਲੋਹ ਪਾਤਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਡਾਰਿ ਕੈ ਛਹਿ ਸਿਖ ਆਸਨ ਬੀਰ ਲਵੀਜੈ। ਹਾਥ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਖੰਡੇ ਕਉ ਲੇਕਰ ਜਲੋ ਪਤਾਸੇ ਕਉ ਖੂਬ ਮਿਲੀਜੈ। ਜਪੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਸਿਖ ਪਾਤਰਿ ਦੂਸਰ ਹਾਥ ਧੀਰਜੈ।੧੧੨। ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੁ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਅਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਪਾਠ ਸੋਂ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰੀਜੈ। ਪਾਂਓ ਚੁਲੇ ਮੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੁ ਯਾਜਕ ਏਤ ਜੀ ਨੇਤਰ ਕੇਸ ਪਵੀਜੈ।੧੧੩॥ * Bhai Mani Singh Ji's letter to Mata Sundari Ji regarding the compilation of Sri Dasam Granth is authentic, and metals nibs did exist in India during that time. It was also pointed out that the style of writing by Bhai Mani Singh Ji was similar to the style used by Guru Har Rai Sahib. * It was also pointed that the real intention of people doubting Sri Dasam Granth is to reject the concept of Amrit-Sanchar (Khanday-ki-Pahul) and thus eliminate AmritDharis from the Panth and this is exactly in line with the Indian Government's long term plan to marginalize and eliminate Sikhism from India. They referenced the Baat Cheet in the Indian Army Gazette No. 153, 1984 published stated: “...Amritdharis, who are dangerous people and pledged to commit murders, arson and acts of terrorism, should immediately be brought the notice of authorities. These people might appear harmless from outside but they are basically committed to terrorism...” * Sri Dasam Granth condemns the worship of devi devtas. The RSS would never accept such a Granth that exposed this truth to the world. In actuality, it is the RSS and Indian Government agencies who want the Sikhs to condemn Sri Dasam Granth, and these detractors are working at their behest. The Panthic Singhs asked Jeonvala whether he would classify Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Mani Singh, Sirdar Kapur Singh IAS, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar RSS agents? As predicted, Jeonvala again failed to answer the query put forth by the Singhs. Whisked away to safety It is obvious that the disgraced Jeonvala could not keep his composure throughout the debate and failed to have a sensible discussion with the other participants. It was reported that due to his outbursts against Sri Dasam Granth, an irate group of Sikhs had arrived outside the TV studios near the end of the debate. Fearing for his safety, Jeonvala was escorted out to a vehicle by the studio management, and whisked away quickly out of sight. For the Kala-Afghani lobby, Toronto’s truck-driver ‘scholar’ Jeonvala had now become a liability instead an asset.

Phony singh sabha has no office, no phone number.They are only existing on web. Sukhbir singh did indicate their source of support i.e. anti sikh forces. These people do not believe in God and that is why they do not accord respect to scriptures.

There was a Dasam Granth debate on Sur sagar TV Toronto on Feb. 6 , 2010 between Panthic singhs and kala afghani follower Gurcharan Jeonwala Given below are videos for that. http://news.panthic....anthic_tube.php