Meeting of Budha Dal

[jassasingh]

if some one wants to go ahead just making statements without backups then its his will ...

just reading from sites or magazines would not help u gaining info about nihung singhs ... come and stay with dal ...

i told u before that their is bond 80 % being jatt ... but it dont effect their relations with singhs from other race ...

and lastly how come shuder getting amrit before anyone else dont make budhadal shuder pro jathebandi if jatt getting before khatri makes is jatt pro jathebandi ... ???

or its just u want to see it like that ... if thats the case sorry i cant help u ...

[chatanga]

jassa singh ji, where is the link to the katha?

[Malwe Da Sher]

Witnessing a Budha Dal amrit sanchar I can say that caste is asked but incidently jatts got amrit last. I have heard about seperate langar but havent witnessed it myself, perhaps anyone who has can elaborate. There are many Mazbhis with farlas - did they all get beaten up? As Jussa said, the practises do not necessarily lead to anamosity or tension between Singhs of different castes.

Although I think you are over exaggerating the issue, I have said that there is some caste discrimination in the dal which has been present over the years and Baba Joginder Singh has been trying to tackle it - what else do you want to be said on this issue?

Narinjana Bhai perhaps you could enlighten us to the caste discrimination you have witnessed.

Would perhaps be an idea for admin to split and create a new topic.

[jassasingh]

singh ji that a big katha of sri sarbloh granth by baba santa singh ... around 50 mb i cant upload it nor i remember where i downloaded it from ... so i have just cut a part of it where 5 th varran is talked about and uploaded it ...

here is the link ...

http://www.MegaShare.com/328504

[Niranjana]

Jassa:

"just reading from sites or magazines would not help u gaining info about nihung singhs ... come and stay with dal ..."

As I have indicated, this is not info from some "sites or magazines", this is from the Dal itself.

Bottom line, if Joginder Singh is struggling to tackle this issue, there clearly is an issue, you and all others here are in denial, simple as that!

At least, "Angrez British Raj influenced modern day Sikhs" can admit to problems within their ranks, shame that the Nihangs have to resort to denial and petty word games.

"and lastly how come shuder getting amrit before anyone else dont make budhadal shuder pro jathebandi if jatt getting before khatri makes is jatt pro jathebandi ... ??? or its just u want to see it like that ... if thats the case sorry i cant help u ... "

Please grow up and stop analysing the serious situation like a child.

Malwe da Sher:

"Although I think you are over exaggerating the issue, I have said that there is some caste discrimination in the dal which has been present over the years and Baba Joginder Singh has been trying to tackle it - what else do you want to be said on this issue?"

Nihang Jee, I don't believe I am over exaggerating the issue at all. It is simple, if I am lying, please could all the Nihangs come out unequivocally that there is no existence of a "chautha paur" for Langar, for Amrit Sanchar or any other purpose.

Nihang Niddar Singh of the UK Nihang Akhara has clearly mentioned and acknowledged the existence of the "Chautha Paur", both within his own writings (the infamous book "typed by various students") and in person (at the Kings University talk a few years back). Despite what may get said about him, at least he is not living in denial, but I digress...

Perhaps other factions of the Buddha Dal in the UK, Canada and India can obtain statements to counter Niddar Singh's acknowlegdement and prove me wrong - maybe Jassa Singh, being in India, you can touch base with Jathedar Bawa Singh Ji (Chief of a group of Ranghreta Nihangs) and ask him about the Chautha Paur - yes, he is a Farladhari Nihang who probably didn't get beaten up, so maybe you have a chance here to correct me in my "over exaggerated" view.

"Witnessing a Budha Dal amrit sanchar I can say that caste is asked but incidently jatts got amrit last."

This doesn't mean anything! There are Buddha Dal amrit sanchars in which the bata is kept separate for those in the "chautha paur".

[tonyhp32]

Ironically the UK Nihangs do not have a good word to say about Banda Singh Bahadur and some even deny that he took Amrit. About the social revolution that Banda Singh undertook after the sacking of Sirhind the historian Irvine writes-;

In all the paraganahs occupied by the Sikhs, the reversal of previous customs was striking and complete. A low scavenger or leather dresser, the lowest of the low in Indian estimation, had only to leave home and join the Guru, when in a short time he would return to his birthplace as its ruler with his order and his order of appointment in his hand. As soon as he set foot within the boundaries the wealthy and well-born went out to greet him and with joined palms awaited his orders. Not a soul could disobey an order, and men who had often risked themselves in battlefields, became so cowed down that they were afraid even to remonstrate.

I wonder if the same low born were first given Amrit by seating them as chautha paur and then giving them sardari over their places of birth?

[Malwe Da Sher]

Fantastic idea - lets turn this into a discussion on Baba Banda Bahadur !!!

Interestingly the Bandai Khalsa whos lineage is still going gets akhand paths done at the Budha Dal chaunee at rakbha - the Bandai Khalsa recognising superiority of Tat Khalsa (Budha Dal) and they also pay some sort of an allegiance to Baba Joginder Singh. They have also presented the Gurdwara with pictures etc of Baba Banda Bahadur. I think they get an akhand path done every year there.

[tonyhp32]

MDS

The two opposing points of view here are that-;

1. The Budha Dal is the original Khalsa as created by Guru Gobind Singh and it has kept the original rehat.

2. The Budha Dal as with all historical organisations is susceptable to being influenced by the non-Sikh majority community and some of it's current usages may actually be contary to Sikhism.

The Banda Singh Bahadur comment was to show that at one stage shudhars were given pride of place in the Khalsa and not relegated to being given a chautha paur status.

[1santkhalsa]

who do we class as uk budha dal...?

niddar singh -

eats meat from outside therefore breaking budha rehat

drinks alcohol therefore breaking budha rehat

does nindyaa of brahamgyanis and shaheeds therefore breaking budha rehat

he has openly stated that he doesnt care abtu budha dal or the panth and is out to spread his own agenda

hes not a nihang and hes definately not budha dal

when anyone refers to him or his akhara singhs they should be called the darbara akhara boys nothing else

thats a benti to all on the forum

niddar singh has no authority to represent budha dal anywhere!

[Niranjana]

sant khalsa,

What jurisdictional powers Nihang Niddar Singh may or may not have on the Buddha Dal in any of its outfits is really of no significance to this debate.

The bottom line is that the Buddha Dal amrit sanchars and langars in Hindustan have the above mentioned practices of singling out the "Chautha Paur", what Nihang Niddar Singh does or doesn't do is of no influence on this wider aspect, likewise if the revered Baba Sukha Singh, Buddha Dal UK himself may not ascribe to such practices is also of no consequence as that is simply Baba Jee demonstrating his outlook as a Gursikh, it doesn't change the fact that the Buddha Dal, the "true form of the Khalsa (Tat Khalsa" and the "Ladli Fauj" of Guru Gobind Singh undertake the practice of caste discrimination in their langars and amrit sanchars.

Nihang Niddar Singh was bought up here, since he does not deny the existence of the "Chautha Paur" within the Buddha Dal, what his personal status is on the issues mentioned above really doesn't matter, he has witnessed the above and spoken about it freely (even justifying it!)

[Malwe Da Sher]

Are you guys sure that person you have chosen will let Dalits and Malechhas be baptised without descrimination if status quoe is maintained.

.

I have been informed that there is now an Amrit Sanchar at Damdama Sahib patshahi 6 held the day after every sangrand. I think there have been 2 or 3 amrit sanchars so far. True to his word, Baba Joginder Singh does not allow for anyones caste to be asked, one bata for all. There is no discrimination on any grounds, in amrit sanchar, langar, darbar sahib. The fauj at Rakbha seems to be steadily growing and many prominent heads of Budha Dal have also shifted to Rakbha.

As for Balbir Singh uprooting caste discrimination, perhaps someone can explain why a separate bata is still kept at Sabo Kee Talvandee and amrit sanchars held by Budha Dal under Baba Balbir Singh? He has promised to give amrit in only one Bata, but recently at the Jorh Mela at Fatehgarh Sahib Jathedars of Chauta Paur Dal complained to Baba Joginder Singh at discrimination they faced and the failure of Balbir Singh to uphold his promise. Chautay Paur Singh appear to have further aligned themselves with Baba Joginder Singh after he failed to uphold his promises.

It seems like there are two Budha Dals running parallel to each other. Balbir Singh who is supported mainly by members of his family and pretty boy goons he dresses in banay. The majority of Budha Dal Singhs do not accept Balbir Singh claim to be Jathedar, they still accept Baba Santa Singh as their Jathedar and pay their respects to Baba Surjit Singh and Baba Joginder Singh.

Harianvela, Baba Bakala, various 'chautay paur' and the Guru Nanak Dal seem happy to follow Baba Joginder Singh in the few mohallay they have done in the past few months. However, No one outwith of Budha Dal and 'chauta paur dals', really seem eager to openly support either side and denounce to other- other than the Federation lot.

Balbir Singh is in possession of most of Budha Dals’ assets – property, money etc. Budha Dal licenses given out at amrit sanchars also carry the name of Baba Balbir Singh. Amrit Sanchars at Rakbha still give out licenses with the name of Baba Santa Singh. The majority of Budha Dal Nihang Singhs are staying loyal to Baba Santa Singh and opposing the attempted take over by Balbir Singh, they are working under karajkaree Jathedar Baba Joginder Singh. It of course goes without saying that Balbir Singh has the backing of Punjab Government and consequently organisations which are eager to appease political heavyweights.

Thats what I know of the current situation, perhaps others can add something. Vijaydeep Singh perhaps you can clarify what exactly Balbir Singh has done to counter caste descrimination, judging on the basis of seperate batay still being maintained it doesnt seem to be an awful lot.

[Guest wu]

where does baba bidhi chand dal stand on this?

[Malwe Da Sher]

No idea

[chatanga]

duznt balbir singh also have backing of sgpc?

[Malwe Da Sher]

He has full support of SGPC

[tonyhp32]

So can we now say that the bulk of the Budha Dal as MDS claims that is aligned with Baba Joginder Singh is now against having a separate bata for lower castes. This raises an interesting question, was having a seperate bata a part of the 'original' Budha Dal rehat or was it something that was introduced at some stage which was contary to the rehat?

Personally I favour the latter explanation as having a discriminatory attitude to the lower castes would have been suicidal for the Khalsa in the period 1708-1799. Faced with extreme persecution the Khalsa would have effectively been rejecting the manpower resources of around 1/4 of the Punjab population at a time when they needed it the most.

[Malwe Da Sher]

I didnt say the bulk of the Budha Dal is now against bata for low classes, unfortunately I can not verify or falsify that. The majority of Budha Dal supports Baba Joginder Singh, one of Baba Ji's own beliefs that he implementing is the abolishment of caste discrimination. Other than perhaps with Mazbhi Singhs (who have always been close to Baba Joginder Singh anyway), his support is neither dependant or based on the fact he is abolishing caste discrimination - there may will still be elements within Budha Dal who are opposed to what Baba Ji is doing, none the less they will still support him as he has been chosen to be karajkaree Jathedar to lead the morhca against Balbir Singhs take over. If Baba Joginder Singh does become 96 krori after Baba Santa Singh passes away then if a minority still oppose one bata they will just have to put up with it. He is too well respected and I dont think anyone will really challenge his decision.

Are there are still elements of discriminatory they will most likely decrease through the course of the future. For example if it were proved that Bhai Randhir Singh accepted Ragmala on his deathbed then it would take a while for all AKJs to believe in Ragmala. Just an example to illustrate belief change is not always a rapid process when something has been followed for so long. I havent heard of anyone complaining about one bata, one langar, mazbhis aloud to do all sevas etc, so lets hope it will become completely distinct ASAP.

The view you have expressed is one of the beliefs Baba Joginder Singh adheres to.

Vijaydeep Singh can you confirm that in Budha Dal 'lead' by Balbir Singh there are still seperate batay?

[Niranjana]

"True to his word, Baba Joginder Singh does not allow for anyones caste to be asked, one bata for all. There is no discrimination on any grounds, in amrit sanchar, langar, darbar sahib. The fauj at Rakbha seems to be steadily growing and many prominent heads of Budha Dal have also shifted to Rakbha"

Thanks for this - it pretty much confirms the point that I and Tonyhp3 have raised from our otherwise very different points of view on the matter of caste discrimination and the organisation that today styles itself as the Buddha Dal.