Origins of Sikhism

[Matheen]

and in the Gita Krishna talks about people merging with him(Ie God)..... Jesus in the bible talks about becoming one with the Father as he himself was also one with the Father.

That's the 'problem' - if you read Chaubis Avtar or even Bachittar Natak, Krishna should have talked about merging with Akal Purkh, not himself.

Jesus also said he was the only way.

Regarding the hadiths - what does the Quran itself say on the matter? I'm only interested because of what JapJi Sahib tells us - " Lok Chaudeh Kehan Kateba...."

I have no doubt that people became Mukt before. The question is whether they were actually following any religion of the time or not. Again, Guru Sahib explains all in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

By the way, are you studying a comparative religion course or just interested in the commonality of religion?

[amardeep]

hello matheen ji how are you.

Well since Krishna was the sargun avatar of Akaal Purakh in a previous Yug, then there is no difference between Krishna and Akaal Purakh, so what is the problem if Krishna says merge with me instead of Merge with Akal Purakh? Krishna talks about his higher and lower nature in the Gita, the nirgun and the sargun.

I dont think anyone can accuse Jesus(im not saying you are ) of being full of hankaar, and the incident where Mary magdelene washes his feet is evidence enough. he was a very humble man, so i dont think that his "i am the only way" is to be taken as literaly as christians make it out to be.

as far as i recall the 18.000 worlds are not mentioned anywhere in the Quran.

and im just interested in commonality of religion. for me all religions are just different colors and faces of the same one religion.

[Matheen]

Chardi Kalaa! as always, thanks for asking.

Well since Krishna was the sargun avatar of Akaal Purakh

Is there anything in Gurbani to back this up? forgive my ignorance and please bear with me, but in Rehras Sahib Maharaj Ji tells me "..Kisan Bisan Kabhoo Na Dhiayo..." also " Kan Suneh, Pehchaan Na Thin So...." and there are many other times Guru Ji is saying something contrary to your view.

[amardeep]

Read this entire beautiful hymn of Guru Arjan Maharaj:

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna;(Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāveh )||9||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...=7&id=46421

[amardeep]

Matheen and anti N-ang:

what are your views on Sikhism ? : )

[Silence]

certain actions commited by krishan were done through vaheguroo ji's/guru ji's power

there is a tuk from gurbani, gurmat krishan govardhan dhaare

I have been told this refers to an incident from krishan jis life where he lifted up a mountian for some purpose. This shabad clearly states he could only do this with GURU'S mat (Gurmat). So krishan ji was sent to do certain good duties, these duties were powered by Gurmat.

otherwise, it was krishan ji acting of his own accord, eg. stealing peoples clothes while bathing, thats not something u imagine Guru Ji doing.

[antinang]

^that was me by the way, my second account i created when having technical problems, it was accidently saved on this windows profile

[Maha Kharag Singh]

theres a deeper meaning to hi stealing the Gopid cloths, its like the time Satguru Nanak squeezed laalos and bhagos rotia and out of one came blood and milk from the other. Practical examples to teach a lesson.

Even Satguru Gobind Singh Ji was natkhat as a child. they push a bhramin into the water while doing sandhya, and nicked something of a weaver lady (cant remember the sakhi) but this was all to prove his divinity.

[Matheen]

What do you think of this: (From Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji)

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਹਯੋ ਤਿਹਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਿ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

बेद कतेब न भेद लहयो तिहि सि्ध समाधि सभै करि हारे ॥ सिम्रित शासत्र बेद सभै बहु भांति पुरान बिचार बीचारे ॥

The Vedas and Ketebs could not comprehend His Mystery and the adepts have been defeated in practising contemplation; various thought have been mentioned about God in Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and smrities;

ਆਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਕਥਾ ਧ੍ਰੂਅ ਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਅਜਾਮਲ ਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਾਰ ਤਰੀ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਸੋਈ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰ ਬੀਚਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥੧੦॥

आदि अनादि अगाधि कथा ध्रूअ से प्रहिलादि अजामल तारे ॥ नामु उचार तरी गनिका सोई नाम अधार बीचार हमारे ॥१०॥

The Lord-God is Primal, Beginningless and unfathomable; stories are current about Him redeemed Dhruva, Prehlad and Ajamil; by remembering His name even Ganika was saved and the support of His name is also with us.10.

ਆਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿੱਧ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪ ਸਭੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਜੱਛ ਮਹੀਧਰ ਨਾਗਨ ਭੂੰਮ ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਚਹੂੰ ਚਕ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥

आदि अनादि अगाधि सदा प्रभ सि्ध स्वरूप सभो पहिचानयो ॥ गंध्रब ज्छ महीधर नागन भूम अकाश चहूं चक जानयो ॥

All know that Lord as beginningless, unfathomable and adept-incarnate; the Gandharvas, Yakshas, men, Nagas consider him on the earth, sky and all the four directions;

ਲੋਕ ਅਲੋਕ ਦਿਸ਼ਾ ਬਿਦਿਸ਼ਾ ਅਰੁ ਦੇਵ ਅਦੇਵ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਚਿੱਤ ਅਗਯਾਨ ਸੁਜਾਨ ਸੁਯੰਭਵ ਕੌਨ ਕੀ ਕਾਨ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਭੁਲਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੧॥

लोक अलोक दिशा बिदिशा अरु देव अदेव दुहूं प्रभ मानयो ॥ चि्त अगयान सुजान सुय्मभव कौन की कान निधान भुलानयो ॥११॥

All the world, directions, anti-directions, gods, demons all worship Him; O ignorant mind ! by following whom, you have forgotten that self-exstent omniscient Lord ? 11.

ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

कहूं लै ठोक बधे उर ठाकुर काहूं महेश कौ एस बखानयो ॥ काहूं कहयो हरि मंदर मै हरि काहूं मसीत कै बीच प्रमानयो ॥

Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥

काहूं ने राम कहयो क्रिशना कहु काहूं मनै अवतारन मानयो ॥ फोकट धरम बिसार सभै करतार ही कउ करता जीअ जानयो ॥१२॥

Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

जौ कहौ राम अजोनि अजै अति काहे कौ कौशल कु्ख जयो जू ॥ काल हूं काल कहै जिहि कौ किहि कारण काल ते दीन भयो जू ॥

If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥

स्त सरूप बिबैर कहाइ सु कयों पथ कौ रथ हांक धयो जू ॥ ताही को मानि प्रभू करि कै जिह को कोऊ भेदु न लेन लयो जू ॥१३॥

If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥

कयों कहु क्रिशन क्रिपानिध है किह काज ते ब्धक बाण लगायो ॥ अउर कुलीन उधारत जो किह ते अपनो कुल नासु करायो ॥

Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥

आदि अजोनि कहाइ कहो किम देवकि के जठरंतर आयो ॥ तात न मात कहै जिह को तिह कयों बसुदेवहि बापु कहायो ॥१४॥

He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥

कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥

Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

[Matheen]

Matheen and anti N-ang:

what are your views on Sikhism ? : )

Condensed version: Jin Prem Kiyo, Thin Hee Prabh Paayo. :wink:

What particular aspect?

[unbreakable]

..

[amardeep]

Interesting Shabad. I love the bani of Dasam Granth so thanks for putting in it so i had the opportunity to read it

The way i read it, is Guru Gobind Singh talking about Nirgun/sargun aspect of God, where the hindues have focused only on the Sargun aspect and limited God to his historical manifestations only. The shabad i think is talking about rightfull worship, and has nothing to do with comdeming Krishna, Ram and other great men of history.

I hope to see Tsingh give his inputs on this shabad as i know he has more knowledge on this subject of nirgun/sargun worshipping etc.

[amardeep]

Interesting Shabad. I love the bani of Dasam Granth so thanks for putting in it so i had the opportunity to read it

The way i read it, is Guru Gobind Singh talking about Nirgun/sargun aspect of God, where the hindues have focused only on the Sargun aspect and limited God to his historical manifestations only. The shabad i think is talking about rightfull worship, and has nothing to do with comdeming Krishna, Ram and other great men of history.

I hope to see Tsingh give his inputs on this shabad as i know he has more knowledge on this subject of nirgun/sargun worshipping etc.

[Guest]

I was going through old archives, this is very good topic.

In my opinion, gurmat is nyara. Whilst it has option/angles 2 and 4 as other suggested ..it has also numerous angles as tsingh suggested. Surely gurmat is defined or unfolded by bhai gurdas ji and our guru sahiban but same gurmat has totally been folded back in akaal ustat sargun-nirgun by sri guru gobind singh maharaj..!!

As other posted Gurmat has its own version of Advait vedanta compare to adi sankarcharaya philosphy ..i think gurmat also has its own version of sufism..actually now that i think about it..i think gurmat advait is very close to sufism than it is to raw advait vedanta by sankarcharya.

This is deep topic...more research is needed..!!

[drawrof]

A path which is meant to be experienced and causes for a ceaseless battle against the mind, through engaging the mind and heart...continously can not 'adequately' be "branded" as A or B.... This branding takes away the current agency and throws the engagement into a mode that is suspended in time..I agree there is a shared heritage but people are constantly looking for secrets within gurbani because their own mind 'resists' facing itself. What if terms such as saadh, sant, and especially 'naam' are not just simple signifiers allowing one to engage with gurbani to open up experience as opposed to deducing a logic?

So I say that we , as a collective, knew what was meant at one time when they said 'sikhi gaadi rah ya' (it is a straight route); the problem these days is that we have turned the sidhant into a fetish...I place myself at the forefront of this...

[dalsingh101]

Drawof, your words ring so true!

Once you start trying to practice the spiritual aspects of the faith for a while (even in the half arsed way I try to), it does become apparent that at the heart of this lies a very personal (and arguably simple) battle with your mind/psychological process as well as internal physical processes. It is in one way simple to define but in practice the experience is about as intense as you get, with a lot of failure (in my case at least), but the battle continues.

[SAadmin]

very good post drawrof veer

[SAadmin]

I personally think we need to have define Gurmat sidhant for newcomers. Actually, Bhai Gurdas Ji have already defined it as tsingh mentioned fast position held by guru sahiban and bhai gurdas ji on different philosophies, introvert, extovert layer of mind.

Also, as they say- dharam usually have- shariat, tariqat, marfat, hakikat level. Surely, from hakikat or bhramgyan level its all one advait (non dual supreme consciousness) there are no social/spiritual relgious boundaries- shariat/rules etc but student sitting at shariat level need to have standard to be contained as for starters- its all pretty much sargun even if its kirtan, seva, naam simran- shabad form (shuksham sargun).

Now is it possible reach at bhramgyan without external layers in dharam? yes its possible but exteremely very rare to the point where one's previous lives bhagti kick in. But in general no because our mind is sargun in nature and slowly goes towards nirgun not straight away.

Surely everything could be made fetish and everything sargun is somehow roadblocks in students path..thats why proper guidance is needed. But even if path/aim is clear, it appears human consciousness gets stuck in something or another until satguru grace.

I spoke bhai gurdev singh ji regarding overall bhagti/gyan/shabad surat marg in sikhi, if they are separate or same. He said, in gurmat bhagti/gyan/shabad surat are all blended in one. Prem(Bhagti), Shabad(Naam abhyas) and Gyan marg may seem oxymoron for other spiritual orders but its all blended in Gurmat. Basically devotion in Gurmat - be it bhagti intertwined with shabad surat and gyan should be spontaneous come from heart, if devotion is robotic regardless of doing sargun or nigun upasna, its still a roadblock and gets turned into dogma or fetish. Whilst vivek buddhi(intellect) has power can help solve lot of roadblocks within or theological issues, even vivek buddhi has its limitations cannot go all the way, only thing that goes all the way until end bairaag and prem...nothing else.!!