Sikh Wedding has to be perform before 12 noon?

[Guest]

I have always wonder about this, recently came across with an thread on ss asking the same question, why our old folks have this beleive that sikh wedding has to be perform before 12 noon? is it more cultural influence than sikh maryada?

Do we have rehitnamas talking about specifics of anand karaj(sikh wedding) like timing?

I heard in the nihang dals usually weddings are performed in amritvela, followed by asa di var? can anyone confirm that?

I will probably go over prem sumarag granth, may be able to find answer to my own question but for time being, please discuss?

[gsingh00]

correctly me if im wrong, but laavan is in raag soohee, and i think the ideal time for that is 3am-6am. THerefore doesnt it make most sense for amritvela anand kaaraj?

[1santkhalsa]

The anand kaaraj should be after asa di vaar @ amrit vela

both the bride and groom should be amritdhari gursikhs

[shaheediyan]

"correctly me if im wrong, but laavan is in raag soohee, and i think the ideal time for that is 3am-6am. THerefore doesnt it make most sense for amritvela anand kaaraj?"

Raag timings has no place in Sikhi, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Emotions and the need to remember Vaheguru in any mood one wants cannot be restricted by time.

"The anand kaaraj should be after asa di vaar @ amrit vela

both the bride and groom should be amritdhari gursikhs"

You have stated a fact rather than an opinion, please provide a valid source/reference for your statement.

Also, how are Sehajdhari or Khulasa Sikhs to be married?

[rkang17]

Yea idealy Anand Karj should take place before 12 noon

[amardeep]

According to prem sumarag granth it has to be done in amrit vela.

[shaheediyan]

Out of interest, do Nihang and Namdhari follow this amritvela rehit?

[Matheen]

I could be wrong, but I think Amrit Vela is seen as the best time for performing ceremonies associated with 'happy' events and also the best time to get Maharaj Ji's kirpa.

Maybe more to do with tradition?

[Mithr]

During the olden times, both bride and groom had to be amritdhari in order to have an Anandkaraj. Within my own family, my elders tell me that some of their family was not religious, but back then only Amritdharis could have Anand Karaj, so they had to take Amrit just in order to have an AnandKaraj even if they would not follow the rehet afterwards. Any Sikh who was not Amritdharis had to marry the Hindu way around the fire. But the last 75 years, as the population of Amritdharis has decreased and Sahajdharis increased, the Anandkaraj rules have become from flexible to include everyone.

Now the Anandkaraj is even performed for interreligious couples where the girl is a Sikh and the boy follows some other religioun. It's just a matter of time i think that we will soon see even Homosexuals having Anand karaj performed at their weddings. It wouldn't surprise me.

[Mithr]

Well, I dont know how true this is, but this is what a Singh once told me many years ago when I asked him the same thing.

The Singh told me that the reason why Sikhs have Anandkaraj before 12 is because during the olden days, when Muslims would kidnap Hindu women during their marriage, the Hindus began performing their marriages at night to avoid kidnapping. But when the Khalsa was created, Dasam Patshah said the Khalsa will perform marriage during the day and out in the open without fear of the Muslims, because if the Muslims were to mess with the Khalsa they know whats coming to them.

That is why Sikhs have wedding out in the open during day light without any fear while Hindus still have it in the night. Even some other of our traditions hint towards this, like during olden times the Janj would all carry swords so it was almost like a small army in itself to protect the new bride, but today only the groom carries it symbolically.

[chatanga1]

in uk it was done b4 12 oclock cos thats when the pubs opened.

on sundays pubs used to open at 12 and shut at 3 by law. so the wedding was completed b4 12 so the men cud have a drink to celebrate the wedding strate after.

[amardeep]

hahahahah chatanga you pagal lol..

The prem sumarag talks about bride and bridgeroom taking amrit togheter after the lavans.

is the ceremony of walking around Guru Granth sahib found in any early scriptures? Sooraj Parkash says that Guru Nanak walked around a fire when he was married

[shaheediyan]

You've touched on an interesting and sensitive subject there Amardeep.

Namdari weddings still involve a vedi viah or havan kand, where a fire is constructed according the respective tradition. The couple take amrit prepared by five Namdhari Singhs and then walk around the havan 4 times whilst the laavan are read by 7 Singhs. (If this is wrong, please add to it).

Personally I don't see a big problem with this, as the importance is on the Gurbani that is bing recited and the fire is sybolic and a traditional Indian custom. In all likelyhood, Guru Nanak Dev Ji would have been married according to his parents wishes. This would have been the case for all Gurus at least up to the point of Guru Arjun Dev Ji.

Obvioulsy at some point in history the Guru Granth Sahib Ji was introduced in place of the havan kand. From the little I have read on the subject, it was the Nirankari Baba Dayal Ji or his son Baba Darbara Singh Ji that started taking laavan (Anand Karaj) around Maharaj in the early to mid 1800's. Before and around this time Sikhs were getting married by Brahmans in the vedi viah ceremony, Maharaja Ranjit Singh is said to have done so also.

Baba Ram Singh Namdhari is said to have discussed the issue of marriage with Baba Darbara Singh Nirankari and adopted Anand, albeit around the havan.

Baba Khem Singh Bedi is to have also supported the vedi but possibly with Gurbani being recited.

[das]

Dear shaheediyan,

Firstly, I don't have any proof or reference for this saying, but it's a good idea to consider the following:

- Gurus write Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Raags which means that Raag does carry importance.

- If Raags carry importance, then naturally there are some properties of every associated Raag.

It would not be 100% correct to say that Raag timings are not relevant. But yes, you're 100% right that GOD can be achieved without following Raag timings. We just need to remember GOD (without any strings attached). But still we cannot deny the fact that Raag and their properties does have importance.

e.g If we are sleeping then alarm can help us to get up, but without alarm also we will be up but late.

I came across this: http://www.info-sikh.com/PageH12.html

[shaheediyan]

Dear Das Ji,

I would advise you study the subject before you form a concrete opinion.

Here is one interesting point, the raag structure in the Goindval pothis (dating to Guru Amardas Ji's era) in broad terms, follows a timed theme grouping. This is purely based on the socio-religious culture of the time, as was the actually use of raag.

The Kartarpuri bir and later written birs, have done away with the timing structure, the structure of raags in Adi Granth Ji does not correspond one iota with raag timings. Guru Arjun Dev Ji clearly did this for a reason. To boot, we are given very precise details of how to execute the kirtan, there is no mention of timing, in fact there are plenty of examples that oppose timing. To add there are many versions of timing theories. Guru Ji has spoken of raag many times in gurbani, both to show it's secondary importance next to prem and sharda, and also the bliss that can be gained by using raaga if used with the right state of mind.

Of course following the raag hukum is compulsory and non-arguement, Guru has ordained it in black and white - as it forms an important tool to deliver the real treasure - gurbani, but there is no strong academic, spiritual or historical arguement for the use timings.

[cybersingh]

You've touched on an interesting and sensitive subject there Amardeep.

Namdari weddings still involve a vedi viah or havan kand, where a fire is constructed according the respective tradition. The couple take amrit prepared by five Namdhari Singhs and then walk around the havan 4 times whilst the laavan are read by 7 Singhs. (If this is wrong, please add to it).

Personally I don't see a big problem with this, as the importance is on the Gurbani that is bing recited and the fire is sybolic and a traditional Indian custom. In all likelyhood, Guru Nanak Dev Ji would have been married according to his parents wishes. This would have been the case for all Gurus at least up to the point of Guru Arjun Dev Ji.

Obvioulsy at some point in history the Guru Granth Sahib Ji was introduced in place of the havan kand. From the little I have read on the subject, it was the Nirankari Baba Dayal Ji or his son Baba Darbara Singh Ji that started taking laavan (Anand Karaj) around Maharaj in the early to mid 1800's. Before and around this time Sikhs were getting married by Brahmans in the vedi viah ceremony, Maharaja Ranjit Singh is said to have done so also.

Baba Ram Singh Namdhari is said to have discussed the issue of marriage with Baba Darbara Singh Nirankari and adopted Anand, albeit around the havan.

Baba Khem Singh Bedi is to have also supported the vedi but possibly with Gurbani being recited.

Fateh Ji to all sangat..............

just a bit of notice but the laavan are not read by 7 singhs but by one paathi/granthi singh and usually there are 3 or more people sitting around as by namdhari maryada, gurbani should be read shudh and so there are always others there to assist.

As for the fire issue, the meaning behind is two - fold, one being that during the time of its inception into the namdhari fold, brahmans were always taking advantage of poor people eg...making them pay big bucks to marry their children. At that that time, Guru Ram Singh ji went against and rebelled against the brahmins and did the laavan in that fashion (with the vedi and fire) and did mass marriages so that the poor people could marry. The total cost at that time, for a marriage, was 1.25 rupees which were tied into the nuptial knot and at the end of the phere, the money was donated to gurughar.

The second portion to this is that, according to elder namdharis, the fire god is a witness to the marriage and that the marriage will not break until either one of the spouse's is absorbed by fire (ie..death of either one of the spouse).....

Hope this helps.

[chatanga1]

wouldnt Guru himself be a witness to this?

so would someone such as fire-god be necessary?

assuming that everyone will end up being cremated?

ie some peopel drown in rivers and there bodies are never found?

[Mithr]

Chatanga, I think it's just how Namdharis do their marriage. I'm sure non Sikhs can also nit pick a thousand questions about our Anand Karaj as well. Right now, the way most Sikhs do marriage, they ask for dowry, len-dhen, serve alcohol, Lachar Ganay etc. First we need to clean all that out of our marriages then only shall we have the right to question anyone else. Namdharis in comparision dont have any of that stuff in their marriages.

[SAadmin]

good post mithr.

[chatanga1]

good support neo.

Mithr the marriage you describe wiv all the len-dhen dowry alcohol is not the mariage that our Guru has insructed us to carry out. this is just man-made superficial nonsense.

however the namdharis are folwing the hukam given by Satguru Ram Singh ji ,so the example you have given duznt reallty fit in here. plz refrain from doing so to score cheap points.

what im asking is that is the witness of Angi-Dev more cruicail than that of Guru?

Guru also says that Tri-dev were al subject to kaal. wasnt agni-dev subject to kaal?

and agina i ask that as evryone is not cremated simply by the circumstances in which they move on is spirit why the neccessity or importance given to agni-dev for such a ritual?

[SAadmin]

i m not supporting namdhari marriage over sikh marriage chatanga..i support both..yes some elements in namdhari marriage should be included in sikh marriage and some elements in sikh marriage should be included in namdhari marriage.

[Mithr]

Chatanga, Veer the way I think of it is that, the fact that people who do Laanati stuff like Len-Dhen, Dhaaj, Lachar Ganay, serve alcohol at marriages yet are also allowed to carry out the Holy ceremony of the Anand Karaj is an insult to Guru Maharaj. Call me a fanatic, but why the hell are these people who obviously dont respect the Guru's way allowed to do marriage in a Anand Karaj when they are going to do all these things in there marriage? That's an insult to the Anand Karaj. They should be doing the old vedi agni style marriages as far as I'm concearned.

At least the Namdharis dont do any of that stuff in their marriages. They keep it simple just the way Baba Ram Singh Jee told them to do it.

Infact, the saddest thing is anyone who doesn't do Len-Dhen, Dhaaj, Lachar Ganay, serve alcohol in their marriage is considered a person with very low wordly standard by our Laanati Samaaj

We may not agree with Namdharis 100% in some things, but I give them credit where they deserve it over us. They are more Pakkay to their Rehet then we are to ours. They deserve a pat on the back for that.

[Xylitol]

It depends who you compare with. When you look at shardalu of mahapursh, they also are pakka in rahit. And generally don't do too much worldly vadiyaa. This worldly vadiyae that goes overboard is generally the domain of mainstream sikhs who don't have the kirpa of a mahapursh to do sangat with.

I think it just goes to show that those who have the good karms to get sant sangat are also usually the ones who don't have an intense need to show off.

[shaheediyan]

This may 'P' some people off, but as a society - you don't get monai Namdhari nor Namdhari who haven't taken amrit during or before marriage.

In Sant sangats or whatever facet of sangat you go to, the sangat still do mainstream things at weddings.

The only examples of a whole group or society that are strict in wedding principles is Namdhari, AKJ and Nihang Daals. People who follow various Mahapursh still have a certain level of freedom over their decisions, the above mentioned groups live within and operate a hardcore sangat culture and thus remain within the remits of that culture.

We should quit the tribal mentality and accept that no one group is perfect -take the best and leave the rest from all groups.

[ipledgeblue]

well I don't think people should do away with the marital traditions of their respective cultures.